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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2003 * November 25, 2003 * HSA is bunk! < Previous Next >

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danno (207.225.86.219)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 03:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think it's time we put the HSA rumor out in the trash. A friend of mine brought some pictures of the chillers used in Belgium. Basically, the hot wort runs into a trough and then overflows onto a washboard of sorts that has cooling lines running through it. If those beers aren't oxidized, then I find it hard to believe that any beer suffers from HSA. Here are the picts (the Bruges chillers are not in use anymore):

Bruges Brewery
Bruges Brewery
DeDolle Chiller
 

Andrew Pearce (68.225.195.30)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 03:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Danno, how do you REALLY feel about this issue?? Don't hide your feelings, man...
 

tim roth (216.180.208.60)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 03:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

danno- backs it up with some great pictures.
Cheers, Tim
 

Ken Anderson (68.235.34.176)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 03:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Notice that thing's not aluminum don't ya? They know better.
Ken
 

Jim Layton (4.72.19.160)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 03:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great pics! But good luck defeating the HSA argument. From what I've read, some of the worst damage is done during mashing and boiling.

There were some reports in HBD from a group that toured the A-B brewery in St. Louis during one of the MCAB events. They reported that A-B forces a stream of air through the hot wort on its way to the chiller. They do this in order to strip the last traces of DMS from the wort. Its possible that they can get away with this because the hot wort is exposed to oxygen for only a very brief time before it is chilled and pitched with yeast. The thinking here is that there is not enough time for a significant amount of oxidation reactions to occur before the yeast scavenge the oxygen. The same explanation would seem to apply to the Baudelot coolers in your pics.
 

Jim Layton (4.72.19.160)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 03:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, just in case anyone thinks I'm some kind of HSA nut...I'm not. While I think all of our HB suffers from some degree of HSA, I don't think there's much any of us can do about it. Its a shelf life issue, anyway. So long as your beer tastes good to the last drop, you have no HSA worries.
 

Joe Rovito (68.81.236.26)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 05:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

danno:
Of course, you forgot Belgium's oldest and most famous wort chiller, the so-called manneken-pis
 

aquavitae (134.84.195.46)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As an aside, a similar chiller is in use at Traquair. These beers are a bit more straightfoward than the average Belgian, yet still don't seem to suffer from oxidative off flavors. As regards Jim's comment about HSA during mashing and boiling, it was also interesting to note they drained directly from the boil through a strainer (couple of feet drop; presumably lots of splashing), then pumped into wide trays for initial cooling, then over a chiller like Danno showed.
 

Paul Edwards (199.46.200.230)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've also seen the chillers like Danno posted. I visited De Dolle Brouwer in 1995. I think they used a coolship (large shallow pan) to allow the wort to cool some before heading to the washboard, similar to what aquavitae describes for Traquair. I saw the coolship/washboard system in a few places.

My theory is that there is a layer of steam/water vapor over the wort that may minimize oxygen pickup.

Also, these commercial breweries pitch large quantities of healthy yeast. The yeast may quickly metabolize the O2 before significant oxidation of the wort occurs.

But this is only a theory ;-)

Oh, an aside, the mashtun at De Dolle Brouwer was made of cast iron. Of course it had been well seasoned by over 100 years of use
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You HSA guys are crazy. First you will argue that splashing cooled wort can not provide enough aeration for yeast and that you must use pure O2, then you will say that the mere presents of air around hot wort will cause "some" HSA. Henry's law: The hotter the liquid the less disolved gas, the colder the liquid the more disolved gas. The other great one is that you are saying that commercial breweries get away with this because they pitch large populations of yeast which use up the O2 before it has a chance to harm anything. Are we saying that they pitch yeast into hot wort? Or are we now talking about O2 in cooled wort? I thought HSA was oxidation that happened in an instant. Whatever, I guess this is the time of year to chase ghosts.

-Doug
 

Paul Edwards (199.46.200.230)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug

it's true that gases dissolve more easy in colder liquids. It's also true that oxidation chemical reactions happen more vigorously at higher temps. Instantaneous? I don't know.

When oxygenation cold wort takes place, little, if any, of it chemical reacts with wort compounds.

When splashing hot wort, not as much O2 dissolves, but a great deal of what does dissolve will react with wort compounds. I don't know how fast these reactions occur.

Now, as to why large breweries get away with what the do? I'm not sure, but I think the "steam/water vapor barrier" idea is plausible. Note that in the coolship/washboard cooling system, very little splashing occurs with neglible air contact thru the vapor barrier.

I've seen several american micro breweries that allow their mash tuns to run off into a grant, with what looks like a lot of surface area, before pumping wort to the boiler. You's think that HSA would be problem, but the beers I've had at these places have never tasted oxidized.

There is a layer of steam over the liquid in the grant, and they're dealing with larger volumes of wort under the surface. So maybe some of the wort does get oxidized, but not enough of it to break thru the taste threshhold in the finished beer.
 

Brandon Dachel (63.238.222.190)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 01:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> I think it's time we put the HSA rumor out in
> the trash

I fail to see how a *picture* of a chiller is proof of anything.

One could argue that as the wort falls over the chiller it drops to a temperature that's not condusive to oxygen pickup.

A better way to prove/disprove is to aerate your wort for a while right after flameout. Then chill it ferment it and bottle it. Let it sit for 4-6 months and then see how it tastes.

I personally don't have any opinions on HSA. I am prudent when it comes to procedures - don't do anything stupid and it'll probably turn out fine.

> The hotter the liquid the less disolved gas,

The *only* problem with this argument is that I believe that HSA is not a dissolved gas issue, but a chemical one - the oxygen actually binds to something in the wort.
 

Jim Layton (4.72.16.171)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>You HSA guys are crazy

Maybe, but to deny HSA exists is an act of faith.

>First you will argue that splashing cooled wort can not provide enough aeration for yeast and that you must use pure O2

Thats just nuts. Splash the cool wort enough (whatever that is) and everything will be fine.

>Or are we now talking about O2 in cooled wort?

Of course.

>I thought HSA was oxidation that happened in an instant

Whatever gave you that idea? Iron oxidizes into rust but its a fairly slow process. Fresh cut appples turn brown but it takes a few minutes before it becomes obvious. All chemical reactions take place over time.

Gee, don't get so wound up over it. I believe that HSA is real but its mostly just of academic interest to us HBers. I'm certainly not trying to insult your beer or your brewing ability.

All beer eventually goes stale. HSA has been identified as one factor that affects that staling time period. Big deal. Most of us don't see this as a problem.
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Easy now. I am sure that there is a chemical reaction that can take place or this debate would not run so strong (Fredrik will most likely supply the chemical reactions later). But, it does not look to me like the big boys care as much about as we do in the homebrew world.

The thing that cracks me up is how hard we try to push O2 into our cooled wort using pure O2 blasted for 30 seconds to a minute. And then on the other side while the wort is hot, we are so concerned about some splashing.

As for cold side aeration, I think we all agree that it is a good thing prior to fermentation.

The most logical thing I have see on this subject is Paul put forward. When you wort is warmer than the air around it, it will have a naturally high vapor pressure and will be off gasing to beat the band. The greater the different the more the off gasing. So, your wort will have this sort steam protection until is approaches the ambient temperature. So, the problem is sort of self contained and unless you try to aerate your hot wort you should not have much of a problem.

-Doug
 

danno (207.225.86.219)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, so I was trolling a bit but only to the point of making us think some more about HSA. It was also to post some cool pictures of a process/equipment I had never seen before. Here are some of my thoughts on HSA:

HSA has to be at it's highest potential in the mash. That's where there isn't a boil to keep O2 away and there's the longest length of time for the O2 to be in contact with the wort. Many breweries have mash stirring systems that work along the surface as well as under it. Again, the water vapor layer probably minimizes this. While O2 is oxidative, it's only in contact with the wort until it gets boiled anyway.

I don't see an HSA issue in the kettle, there's no O2 in the wort do to the boiling action and there's a great vapor layer protecting it. I've seen on brewery (Uinta in Utah) that has a chimney type stack in their boiler to provide a more vigorous boil similar to the way a coffee percolator works. Their beers aren't oxidized.

On racking to the fermenter; again, the O2 is in short contact with the hot wort and soon the yeast use it all up. BTW, those coolers that I posted show a system where cooling and oxygenating happen very efficiently and without an air pump or O2 bottle. Maybe that's where they get some of their Belgianesk flavor too?

Personally, I think HSA concerns are over stated. I think watching the oxidation issues once the beer has fermented (from racking and bottling) is much more critical that HSA will ever be. So I will stick to my original comment that HSA is bunk (well, relatively anyway).
 

Jared Cook (147.136.228.54)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, Coors did some *actual real research* on this. They injected hot wort with pure O2 to try to cause HSA. The shelf life of the product was shortened by only a couple of days.

It took chemists in a lab at one of the most advanced breweries in the world to shorten the lifespan of the beer by a couple of days.

A homebrewer just isn't going to do anything to make a difference.
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I find the shelf live of my brew is dramatically shortened by inviting my friends over.

-Doug
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there *really* homebrewers out there that worry about HSA? I thought that was just an urban legend. If they do exist, Charlie knew what he was talking about when he suggested we all RDWHAHB . . .
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.63.119)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't exactly worry about HSA but I do try not to unduly splash or aerate the mash, runoff and wort prior to chilling. There's such a thing as being prudent even if I agree that HSA is largely a non-issue for homebrewers.
 

Brandon Dachel (63.238.222.190)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> I find the shelf live of my brew is dramatically
> shortened by inviting my friends over.

heh. Football season is what does it for me!
 

Ken Anderson (68.235.34.176)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 07:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Know it or not Bill, but the underlying tone of your post perpetuates the existence and concern about HSA. I'd like it to be black or white, but the mystery (dare I say myth?) remains. :\
Ken
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.63.119)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 07:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ken, if the major brewers can't agree about the relative importance of HSA, why would you expect homebrewers to have any more conclusive evidence? My own suspicion is that the causes and effects of HSA, such as they exist, are subtle indeed and therefore largely not of major concern to homebrewers. However, we might as well indulge in prudent practices when we can.
 

Denny Conn (140.211.82.4)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm in the same camp as Bill..I don't know whether or not it exists, but I try to minimize things that might cause it. I've never had a batch that had problems that could be blamed on HSA. Does that mean my methods work or that it doesn't exist? I don't know and I don't care...I'll keep doing what I'm doing.
 

Chris Testerman (199.168.33.61)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 09:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I am pretty sure that Bigfoot does not exist, but I ain't 'bout to go out in the woods with a bloody steak strapped to my chest to find out." -Hotter S. Airate
 

chumley (199.92.192.126)
Posted on Tuesday, November 04, 2003 - 10:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am a believer in HSA. For those who don't believe in it, try this experiment with split or duplicate batches (do everything else the same):

Batch #1. Simply dump the mash from the mash tun into the lauter tun.

Batch #2. Carefully ladle the mash from the mash tun into the lauter tun.

Bottle and drink in 8 weeks. One will taste great, the other will taste like cardboard.
 

davidw (12.84.32.88)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 01:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting observation, chumley. Yet another data point: just about a year ago I spent the weekend in a marathon brewing session of three batches. I typically take the bulkhead of my mashtun apart after every half dozen batches or so just to clean things out and reseal it with some silicon. The inner lining had warped right above the hole so after taking the false bottom out to clean things up it would start to leak slightly, thus the need for the silicon.

That said I was on my third mash (a porter) and begining to mash out when the bulkhead started some serious leaking. More than was going to be acceptable before the end of run off. So quick thinking, the only think I could do was transfer the mash to my boil kettle, complete with Bazooka screen. What did I do? I simply dumped the entire mash into the kettle, a converted keg, recirculated to reset the grain bed and proceeded as normal getting my backup kettle to boil in.

That was over the Thanksgiving holiday last year. Fast forward to last July and the State Fair. I happen to find 7 bottles of the porter from 8 months ago stuck away at the back of a shelf. After sticking them in the fridge I drank a couple the next evening. Not bad, not bad at all! (It was a pretty big beer, OG 72) So with a smile on my face I decided to enter them in the fair comp and see how it would do as I had never seemed to have a porter around when a competition comes along and always fancied mine pretty good. This long story short: it placed third and scored 30. Not the highest score I have ever had, but as this thread peaked my interest I went over the scoring sheets this evening and found no comments at all from the judges about any cardboard flavour or hints of oxidation. Something I did not detect either or I would have never entered it in the first place. Interesting experience if you ask me.

So I restate my original comment: HSA, do homebrewers really worry about that? Well, you can if you like, but I don't have the time. There's beer to be brewed! ;)
 

Jim Layton (67.29.229.50)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 01:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>HSA, do homebrewers really worry about that?

Worry? Not me. Seems like we're basically in violent agreement here.

I would like to add one more thought on the whole subject of oxidation: Oxygen is good for yeast but bad for wort and beer at any stage. If our yeast did not need oxygen, would we still aerate the wort? I think not.

Really cool chiller pics! I'm not a gadget head but I'd like to have a HB-sized version of one of those.
 

Russ (141.151.181.230)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 01:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just dump the mash into the lauter tun (I mash in my boiler because it's easy), then dump the wort back in the boiler later. I try not to splash too much, but it is always violent. Never once did I taste any cardboard in my beer.

Maybe it's because they never last long enough to go stale :)

Seriously, though, about 50% of the people I talk to do think pre-boil HSA exists, and the other 50% don't. Personally, I don't care--I make beer that tastes good to me when I drink it...
 

PaulK (68.32.217.196)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 03:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>danno said: HSA has to be at it's highest potential in the mash. That's where there isn't a boil to keep O2 away and there's the longest length of time for the O2 to be in contact with the wort.

You might be on to something here. A number of post prohibition brewers found "agressive" mash stirring mechanisms detrimental to their beers yet many used the Baudelot type chillers as shown in the pictures. Maybe the mash is the susceptible time for oxidation.

I know early in my all grain brewing I used to use a Zapap type lautering setup where i would have to transfer my mash from a pot to the lauter tun/bucket. The mash received a fair amount of splashing and these beers did tend to oxidize very early. Granted this is all anectodal and I've changed about a thousand pieces of equipment and procedures since then but oxidation is not the problem that it used to be for me.

Good post!
 

Joe Alf (65.141.58.224)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 04:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Isn't astringency linked to HSA? I think small air bbubbles lingering or forming from leaks during recirculation may be the cause of this in some of my brews,and I don't have to wait that long for it to show up.Cardboard type oxidation doesn't seem to be a problem for me though.From what I've heard;
HSA can't happen at boiling temps,thats why calandrias can be used,basicly spraying the boiling wort out into air and steam.
Joe
 

Joe Alf (65.141.58.224)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 04:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Isn't astringency linked to HSA? I think small air bubbles lingering or forming from leaks during recirculation may be the cause of this in some of my brews,and I don't have to wait that long for it to show up.Cardboard type oxidation doesn't seem to be a problem for me though.
From what I've heard;
HSA can't happen at boiling temps,thats why calandrias can be used,basicly spraying the boiling wort out into air and steam.
Joe
 

Mike Kessenich (165.189.92.23)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 02:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From what I see in this thread there is far more evidence that HSA does NOT exist, at least for homebrewers. I'm on the don't worry bandwagon, I have enough other stuff to concentrate on!
 

Fredrik (62.20.8.148)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 04:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I haven't worked much on my mashing technique. I can reveal that considering my simple mashing equipment and small pots, it took me 12 hours and alot of splashing to make 5 gallons of wort :)

What Jim says sounds reasonable. HSA may possibly increase the oxidation potential in the wort which can't be good, but that the actual secondary oxidations that cause the bad flavours may take time? I've finished all my brews so far in less than 3 months and never felt anything. Perhaps longer storage and splashing during transport makes a difference from homebrew?

Could trying to measure the redox potential make any sense? Did anyone try it? Perhaps there is a difference there even though it's no flavour difference? Just an idea.

/Fredrik
 

Brandon Dachel (63.238.222.190)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> Isn't astringency linked to HSA?

No. Astringency is related to tannin extraction. A cardboard or paper-like taste in finished beer is linked to oxidation. Oxidation typically occurs *post* fermentation. HSA is a theory that attempts to attribute oxidation pre-fermentation and only at high (but not boiling) temperatures.
 

don price (65.32.41.166)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm in the "HSA probably exists" camp. I had a small leak on the inlet to my HERMS/RIMS pump which areated the wort very nicely during recirculation...particularly the 3 temp step plus mash out ESB batch which resulted in about 3 hours of fine areation. The beer was fine for a few weeks and then turned to liquid cardboard. Is this an extreme example? Yes. Did I fix the leak? Yes. Did I try another ESB? Yes. Did I try all those temperature steps? No. Was it oxidized? No. Do I worry about it anymore? No. Does anyone care what I believe? No.

Don
 

Andrew Pearce (68.225.195.30)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you deny the existence of HSA, does that make you an HSAtheist?
 

Fredrik (213.114.44.229)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Got interested and looked in Fix book which I read this summer (and now briefly reviewed) when reading this thread, he says in the case of the T2N staling compound, some sufficent oxidation potentional may be more or less unavoidable, so removing the candidate compounds, for staling seems to be of importance, as these might end up oxidized eventually anyway (given time and conditions). Fix claims unsaturated fatty acids is involved. That in turn may originate from lipids.

So maybe poor wort production technique, choice of grain is possibly as an important issue as the actual protection from oxygen to prevent this cardboardproblem that few seems to have seen? :) Makes me think that's another reason for people like me to stay away from AG until I've got some proper equipment :)

/Fredrik
 

Walt Fischer (24.221.196.114)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Makes me think that's another reason for people like me to stay away from AG until I've got some proper equipment"

Hehe
If brewing AG beeer was so hard, noone would do it..heh

Throw some grain in some 155 degree water, and just brew :)

Walt
 

Ken Anderson (68.235.34.176)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 07:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well let's see. You've got the bubble counter, and a gas chromatograph is in the works. Yes, it takes time to get those needed AG pieces of equipment together! ;) Hmmm... priorities, priorities.
Ken
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.63.119)
Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 07:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HSA is almost the last thing I worry about as an all-grain brewer. Fredrik, the process is hardly beyond the abilities of someone with a technical bent such as yourself. For that matter, almost anyone who reads this can do it. As Walt says, it's basically mixing the crushed grains with hot water, letting them convert, collecting the runoff, rinsing (sparging) the grains, and boiling. That's not rocket science and it can be done in a pinch in the kitchen, although there are better locations in terms of promoting domestic tranquility.
 

Fredrik (213.114.44.229)
Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 07:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wouldn't consider extract only brews anymore though because it's too limited, but part grain doesn't seem bad to me. I don't have a big enough pot to mash one AG batch in a go. Kitchen is the only place I can brew living in an apartment, having no garage. There is no way I could have those custom welded things and gas burners indoors. As long as the volumes are small I can handle it "manually" quite well. I generally don't care about effiency and stuff when doing it. I deliberately keep the effiecency low to be on the safe side from extracting weird stuff. 50% is fine with me, and malt is alot cheaper than DME anyway :) I've got used to using DME for the entire batch.

I'm not sure when I'll get time for my next brew but I can't wait! I'm going to make a foam experiment in that one with that unmalted barely :) woohoooo ... if that doesn't foam the worst I've seen I will get mad!!

/Fredrik
 

Streb (68.166.202.167)
Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 09:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> There is no way I could have those custom welded things and gas burners indoors.

Fredrik, You don't have the same power problems as space impaired brewers in the US. Since you are running on 220, wouldn't it be pretty easy to build a 20 liter electric setup? There are some great low cost system designs on the web.
 

Tom (4.46.11.45)
Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 09:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dont know much about HSA (I didnt even know what it stood for) but I found this:

http://byo.com/feature/664.html

sounds to me like you can either take it or leave it for all its worth
 

Brandon Dachel (63.238.222.190)
Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> sounds to me like you can either take it or
> leave it for all its worth

Generally speaking if the quote comes from BYO, I take it with a grain of salt.

I do get BYO and read it but unfortunately it's aimed at novice brewers (and at times lacking technical depth). That said the article on batch sparging is what made me quit fly sparging :).
 

Fredrik (62.20.8.148)
Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 01:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did you notice that it was Chris Colby that wrote that article? :) He also wrote that interesting article about the philosophy of evolution.

/Fredrik
 

Brandon Dachel (63.238.222.190)
Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 06:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> Did you notice that it was Chris Colby that
> wrote that article?

Hmmm. No I didn't.

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