Topics Topics Help/Instructions Help Edit Profile Profile Member List Register  
Search Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Visit The Brewery's sponsor!
Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * March 02, 2004 * Another question from an extract guying building an AG system < Previous Next >

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First of all, thanks to everyone who's been helping me along the way with design tips, general info on AG, advice, etc. I really appreciate it.

My question is in regards to a CFC. I currently use an immersion chiller in my extract system and plan to switch to a CFC with my AG. I looked at the library page and all they really tell me there is how to build one. I am trying to figure out how the whole thing works. I understand the basics... wort travels through tubing and water travels opposite direction... yadda yadda yadda.

By the time the wort passes through the CFC is it completely chilled and dumped into a primary or it recirculated back into the boiling kettle for more chilling? Additionally, I saw that someone said in a post something to the effect that the first ten minutes of using the CFC is for sanitization. Anyway, I am kinda lost in this whole process and was hoping someone could elborate beginning to end (Sanitization to Primary) on how a CFC is used. Additionally, with the rapid chilling, what happens to all the protein from the cold break?

Thanks!
Kris
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK.. in the title I didn't mean to write guying... obivously it was guy building :)
 

Connie (12.77.133.221)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kris,
I use a MaxiChiller (CFC)...kinda like the one St. Pats carried. I flush mine with the garden hose when finished, then with the next brewdate, I flush again and put it into my HLT untill I'm ready to actually use it, my only effort to santiize. When the 60 minute boil is finished, I flush it once more with the garden hose, connect all the lines and turn on the pump. I do restrict the output for temperture controll and divert the first cup or so of water/wort into a catch bucket (trash), then straight into the carboy at around 60-70 degrees depending on the temperature of my tap water. All The trub goes into the fermenter, no worries. I've made more than 80 batches this way with no problems. YMMV
 

aquavitae (134.84.195.46)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why are you switching to a CFC? Might be better to use what you have and get the AG process down, then upgrade in the future if you feel the need to make things more complicated and/or compete with the Joneses.
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I actually hate my immersion chiller and a CFC is not an expensive add on.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you are brewing 5 gallon batches and never intend to expand your brewing capacity, an immersion chiller is usually sufficient. However, for 10 gallon or larger batches, especially in areas where the tap water temperature is warm in the summer, a counterflow chiller will improve the cooling efficiency and reduce the time.

You can use a counterflow chiller with gravity but it requires a fair amount of height differential between the kettle and fermenter. A pump makes the process easier and eliminates lifting nearly boiling wort.
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With regards to the pump... is it better to pump wort into the CFC (Pump comes before CFC) or pull Wort from the CFC (Pump comes after CFC)?
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By the way... I am building my system out of converted Sanke kegs, so I will be doing 10 Gal + Batches.
 

Connie (12.77.148.227)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Most of our pumps don't "pull" they push.
I have the March high temp model and it's gravity fed from the boil kettle.
 

Wykowski (209.222.26.27)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

for another viewpoint:

I like my I.C., the 50' coil cools 10gal in 15-30min.,

I like simplicity so I decided to go w/ a bigg I.C. so I don't have to clean or sanitize the inside of the coil and I don't need a pump or wort wizard,,
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just read the whole Pump post a few down on main board. It seems that B3 has the one you describe for $129.00.
 

Belly Buster Bob (142.177.7.210)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

check around online, I found the same one for $110 If I can remember where I'll email you
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 07:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Belly Buster... Let me know if you find it.
 

JOHN K. LEE (206.66.239.111)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Kris, I'm still an AG newbie as well but I'm not sure why some of these guys don't think it's a good idea for you to buy a CFC. I've never used an IC so I can't comment on ease of use. I bought my CFC 6 months ago from Austin Home Brew. This is one of the best purchases I've made! $60 and very easy to use. I did have to replace the plastic hose clamps with stainless though. As far as cleaning I flush with water immediately after each use. I sanitize by boiling 3 gallons of water in my boil kettle while I'm mashing and run it though. Voila! Maybe Bill can help me understand your reasoning behind having to have "a fair amount of differential between the kettle and fermenter" because I don't. My chiller sits about 6 inches below my kettle and about about a foot above my fermenter. Granted It takes probably 10 minutes to drain my kettle but it works. If time were a factor in brewing none of us would do it in the first place. I guess a pump would be nice but the "good" ones are kinda pricey. I'm using my spare "Beer Money" for kegs and grains for a while. My system seems to be running A-OK.

-J.K.L.
 

Connie (12.77.138.118)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 07:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

JOHN, I agree, I never had any problem draining thru the CFC by gravity and like you, I had a minimum of height. I would lift the converted keg (boil kettle) up to my second level to drain. My wife saw me do that once and insisted there had to be a safer way. That's when I started useing a pump.
I bought one of B3s IC when I first started boiling outside and thought it was great...untill I bought the MaxiChiller.
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On a totally different note, do either of you recirculate some of the initial wort from the mash tun back up through some sort of heat exchanger (like an immersion chiller in the HLT) and then back into the mash tun to improve clarity. I figured that if I am going to go all in and build a nice AG system, I may as well add some bells and whistles while I am at it.
 

Rob F (12.154.254.158)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What you're describing is a HERMS(Heat Exchange Recirculating Mash System), heavily discussed here and elswhere.
 

aquavitae (134.84.195.46)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think the CFC is a good idea--at this time--because it introduces an unnecessary variable. Presumably Kris can brew a fine extract beer using a system he has worked out, and now wants to take it to the next level. I think the best way to do this is to change as few things as possible with the system, and instead concentrate on the procedural differences with AG. I think this approach avoids introducing new problems and makes it easier to troubleshoot the difficulties that are bound to occur. Just my opinion (and Kris I realize it's moot if you hate the IC.)
 

JOHN K. LEE (206.66.239.111)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 08:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't Kris, my system is almost as basic as you can get but damn I've got some clear beer. I guess if you have pumps your cleaning might be lessened a little bit. I myself spend half of my brew day transfering,cleaning and sanitizing. I don't really want to clean anything else.
-J.K.L.
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 08:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aquavitae.... I am building this sytem from scratch. The system (if that's what one would call it) that I use for extract right now is simply a pot that barely holds 5 gallons and an IC. I have already begun converting all three of my sanke kegs so that I can make larger batches. The CFC is not really a difficult concept to understand. The only question I had was whether the wort was chilled completely through one pass or if it had to recirculate. Being that it's ready after 1 pass, the simplicity is flat out simple. I don't know if I will add a pump right away, but that's no big deal because I have worked with pumps before. I also don't mind spening a little money because I sold my motorcycle and frankly right now, I can get away with a lot with the wife because of it :)
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One more thing... my IC wouldn't even fit into my converted Sanke... too small.
 

craig white (205.188.208.75)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

im kinda in between cfc and setting your boil kettle in a sink full of ice. i use 25ft of 3/8 copper coiled in a bucket with 2 bags of ice, gravity feed, it chills 5 gal in about 20-30 min. to 65deg. but i throttle it back enough and leave my hose high enough in the fermenter that it also aerates the wort. if i ever go more than 5gal it would pay to buy a cfc or an ice maker.
 

Joseph Listan (66.192.83.65)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Your wort can get down to almost the exact same temp as the cooling water. It is a function of how fast each liquid is traveling through the tubing, and the heat content of the inner tube. The longer the wort stays in there, the more it will cool. You have to just fiddle and tweak it (both flow rates) to get it right maximized.

Too fast or slow on either stream can affect cooling efficiency and/or waste shitloads of water. Ideally, you want to be removing the last few degrees with the last few feet of inner tubing.

Examples:
The wort is running too fast - does not have time to lose all of its heat.

Wort running too slow - takes longer than it should to cool and wastes cooling water.

Coolant running too fast - not gonna be an issue for temperature, but wastes water.

Coolant running too slow - does not chill the wort enough before it has lost ability to cool.

My advice, considering it can easily take over 50 gallons of water (a limited resource!) to chill 10 gals of wort, is to put your coolant in a 55 gallon drum and pump it off the bottom of the drum, through the chiller, then gently back to the top of the coolant reservior (or another one). The warm water will stay on top of the cold, so you can use almost all of the 55 gallons before they mix. Dump some Iodo in there once in a while.
 

Joseph Listan (66.192.83.65)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 09:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You can also pre-chill your coolant by running it through another coil submerged in icewater before it enters the chiller. Works very well for both types of chiller. You only need a 20' coil for this.
 

aquavitae (134.84.195.46)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds good Kris. Let us know how that first batch turns out.

AV
There's many a slip twixt concept and lip.
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm probably a couple months away from 1st AG batch because of free time and travel for work, but I will definitely keep people posted. Thanks for everyone's help so far.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 10:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chilling the wort in the sink or tub with ice water is inefficient and slow even for 5 gallon full-wort boils. A chiller is one of the best investments you can make. As I said, an immersion chiller is usually more than adequate for 5 gallon batches; a counterflow chiller is a better solution for larger volumes.
 

Randy McCord (216.174.177.198)
Posted on Tuesday, February 17, 2004 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use a 50' IC in my 11 gal batches with no trouble in the winter and spring. I don't know how it would be in the summer, but it would probably be fine because my water comes straight from the ground. I don't normally brew in the summer months, but I don't see a problem, especially if I run another coil through ice water. Tubing is cheap. IC's are simple to clean and sanitize. For some of us, keeping things simple is the best way.:)
 

Tom (4.46.11.45)
Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 08:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kris, before you toss your IC let me know, im still using ice-baths!
 

Kris Featheringham (69.140.56.114)
Posted on Wednesday, February 18, 2004 - 12:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I actually have designed my immersion chiller into my new AG system. I am going to us it to chill the CFC water before it enters the CFC.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.