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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * March 30, 2004 * Orval for Pearl Street < Previous Next >

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matt_dinges (64.154.121.101)
Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I got an email from somebody going under "Pearl Street Brewery" requesting my Orval recipe. I emptied my junk mail before I grabbed it out, so hopefully this reaches you. Here are the relavent comments:

Paul Edwards wrote:
I've posted this to hbd a few times:

I visited Orval in 1995, had a wondeful tour. Didn't get any yeast
samples but did get a printed handout that includes spec's for this
great beer.

- ------------------------

Original Gravity: 13.4 deg Plato
Color: 22 EBC
Bitterness: 32 EBC

(can somebody translate these last two to SRM and IBU?)

Malt is French, Dutch and German

Pale Lager malt 86.5 percent
Caravienne 13.5 percent

Kettle Hops are Hallertau and Styrian Goldings.

Orval is dry hopped with Styrian Goldings

Chipped pale candi sugar is used in the kettle (no amount given)
Bottles are primed with liquid invert sugar

Yeast:

An ale strain is used in the primary fermenter

5 different yeasts are added to the secondary (no specific info, except
that I was told one of them was a Brettanomyces Strain)

The primary fermenter yeast strain is used for bottling.
Beer is bottle-conditioned for 6 weeks prior to release to market.

Drink & cellaring Temperature: 12 to 14 deg C (53 to 57 deg F)
Sell-by date: 5 years after bottling


Adam W wrote:
Now for the definitive answer for those wishing to clone Orval....

The WL Bastogne strain was obtained at ORVAL for Chris White by a member of my homebrew club (Long Beach Homebrewers), Don van Valkenburg. It is indeed the primary strain.

Myself and several other members of the club have successfully cloned the beer. It tastes almost exactly like fresh Orval, at a small fraction of the cost. We used information from the Orval website, the great information from Paul Edwards' HBD posts, and the lambic digest discussion from 1996 to formulate the recipe.

The key to developing the Orval flavor is to use Brett. Bruxellensis in the secondary. A shampoo-tube of Wyeast 3112 per five gallons works perfectly. As far as I'm concerned, any other S. cerevisiae strains that they may add to secondary are irrelavant and contribute little to the final flavor. It is also important to add fresh primary yeast at bottling.

I have also cultured the B. bruxellensis and it grows very easily on 2% calcium carbonate plates and slants. If you are adept at yeast culturing, then growing Brett is very easy. The only tricky part is pouring the plates and slants so that the CaCO3 remains in suspension. Be warned though, Brett looks like snot when growing on a plate. It is not very appetizing!

My recipe for 7 gallon primary fermentation, 6.5 gallons in secondary:

Grain Bill (adjust for your efficiency):

9.6 lbs Belgian pilsner
1.5 lbs Belgian Caravienne
1 lb table sugar

O.G. 1.060

Hops (all pellets):

2 oz. 5.2% Hallertau for 75 minutes
1 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings for 20 minutes
1 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings for 5 minutes
2 oz. 4% Styrian Goldings dry-hopped

Yeast:

1 L starter of WL Bastogne in primary, fermented around 68 degrees F.
One shampoo tube of Wyeast 3112 added to secondary.
500 ml high krausen starter of Bastogne yeast added to bottling bucket along with table sugar as priming agent.

Fermentation schedule:

Primary for two weeks.
Secondary for 4 weeks.
Bottles condition for around 6 weeks for best flavor.

I recommend getting a vigorous boil going for 90 minutes with the first hop addition coming 15 minutes later. A strong boil will give some carmelization and color develoment. Top up with distilled water if needed.

In addition, heavy weight bottles are recommended for bottling, as this beer will continue to attenuate in the bottle. I used 750mL champagne bottles for mine, capped with normal bottle caps.
-------------------------------------------------

My version was basically Adam's recipe, with some FWHing and some Vienna subbed in for pils(about 10% Vienna). I ended up with OG1.064 and FG1.007.

Too much alcohol for one thing. If you are wanting to really "clone" this beer, Paul's OG is much better(1.054)...although a lot of stuff I've seen states the OG as 1.052, those numbers are close enough that the difference is rather meaningless, IMO.

The gravity on a 9month old bottle of Orval I had was 1.004.

Too much phenol in mine as well, it was fermented in July or Aug in the upper 70s. Keep the temps lower, Bastogne will work in the low 60s at least.

Too much Brett activity. I transferred my beer at G1.019 or so...Brett ate a lot. To make up for this next time I will mash lower, ~145*F. This should help me.

Cheers
 

chumley (65.102.120.14)
Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 03:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>>B. bruxellensis and it grows very easily on 2% calcium carbonate plates

I was waiting for this topic to crop up again, for this year I scored the Bastognne yeast, and am already to brew this late April or early May.

The notes I copied before said to make a 500 ml starter for B. bruxellensis to pitch into the secondary, also using "2% calcium carbonate". My question is, what gravity starter (assume 1.040?), and if this is indeed the gravity of the starter you want, then how much calcium carbonate by weight would you add to a 500 ml starter of 1,040 OG?
 

Paul Edwards (199.46.200.232)
Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My Orval clone has been in the bottle about 4 weeks.

I roughly used Adam W's grain bill and hopping schedule for a 10 gallon batch. My OG was 14 Deg Plato.

WL Bastogne in primary, at around 62 deg F for 7 days.

Pitched Wyeast Brett directly into secondary (no starter). I let beer set in secondary 4 weeks.

We sampled a 750 ml bottle after 2 weeks. Very good beer, but not Orval. The 750 ml bottle we sampled yesterday was MUCH closer to to the real deal.

And we drank it out of Orval glasses given to us at the brewery in 1995 by Orval Marketing director M. Francois Harrenne.
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 12:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, bring a bottle or two of that Orval clone when you come to Iowa for the bike ride this summer.
 

Paul Edwards (199.46.200.232)
Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was already planning on doing that, Bill!

I'll have to hide a some of the 750 ml bottles in a place I can't get to easily.
 

Adam W (128.125.6.113)
Posted on Monday, March 22, 2004 - 07:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Funny that this should come up today....

Last night I drank a 10 month old bottle of Orval. They have an actual "bottled-on" date now on their bottles, this one was bottled on 5-17-03 and it tastes very very close to some of my homemade stuff....maybe slightly more maltiness in the real stuff compared to my homebrew version and even more cabonated than my homebrew stash. Gotta be somewhere near 3.5 to 4 volumes of CO2 in there!

Regarding the calcium carbonate....I've kinda changed my mind with the necessity of using calcium carbonate in the starter solution. It might be unnecessary as long as you don't let the Brett. sit too long in the starter (this contrasts with slants and plates). However, the CaCO3 wouldn't hurt if you want to throw it in there. 2% would be 2 grams per 100mL or 10 grams per 500 mL. 1.040 OG for the starter works well too.
 

matt_dinges (67.28.57.156)
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 03:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul-
Are you in the midwest? Your profile is oddly blank on my computer.

Also, when is the bike ride? I'm not too far away from Iowa, can't imagine myself biking it in the summer, but I wouldn't mind meeting you two in the evening for a beer?

Just trying to foster some community!

Cheers
matt
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Matt, RAGBRAI (the annual cross-Iowa bike ride) is July 25-31 this year. We'd be happy to get together for a beer if the logistics could be worked out. It can be a little difficult finding someone at a specific time and place among 10,000-20,000 people, but it can be done.
 

Michael (135.214.154.104)
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 01:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>>>Too much Brett activity. I transferred my beer at G1.019 or so...Brett ate a lot. To make up for this next time I will mash lower, ~145*F. This should help me.>>>

So basically, Paul, are you thinking that you added the Brett too soon @ 1.019 (?).

Mine is approaching end of week two in primary with a gravity of 1.010 (beginning @ ~15 Plato). Followed Adam's grain bill/hop schedule to the letter.

Based on Adam's original post, I'm going to rack in a couple of days and add a tube of the Brett., leave in secondary for four weeks, bottle and then leave at room temp. for six weeks.

Any changes to this based on experience?

Another question for you Brett. users...as Adam points out, this strain will attenuate in the bottle over a long period of time. Because of this, would you recommend reducing the amount of priming sugar that you would normally used for a "non-Brett" batch of beer? Bottle bombs and the "Mrs." are mutually exclusive. :>)

TIA. Michael
 

Paul Edwards (199.46.200.230)
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 02:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Michael,

That was matt's post you asked about. I didn't measure specific gravity when I transferred to secondary. I let the beer sit in secondary on the dry hops for a couple of days before I added the Brett.

My primary fermentation, secondary, and bottle condtioning are all done at basement temps (60-64 deg F this time of year). The Orval brewery does pretty much everything at 59 deg F or so.

Matt,

Bill jumped in before I could. He's the RAGBRAI expert.

Details on the route and overnight towns can be found at www.ragbrai.org

As Bill said, we'd enjoy a beer-ish get-together. But finding us in the crowd may be a bit difficult, given the participation. I don't know my way around Iowa. I just follow the crowd. The Team we ride with will have overnight locations scoped out, but we won't know where in a particular town we'll be until the week of the ride.

I'm in Indianapolis, BTW. I've updated my profile.
 

matt_dinges (67.31.168.237)
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 07:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks fellas...That's getting close to my trip to Wisconsin for the Great Taste, so it may not work out. As time gets closer, I'll let you know.

Michael-
Yeah, I think I added the Brett with too much left to munch on. 1.010 is what I want to shoot for next time, sounds like you hit it. I don't have any scientific reason for thinking that, just sounds good to me.

2-3weeks with a shampoo tube of relatively fresh Brett will get you pretty low in terms of gravity(should anyway). I bottled mine with both a 500ml starter(at high krausen) of Bastogne and some priming sugar. 9months later and no bottle bombs. Just use sturdy bottles. Mine are all in Orval bottles, a few in champagne bottles, and one magnum.

Cheers
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Tuesday, March 23, 2004 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Matt, I can let you know a couple of weeks before the bike ride where we (Paul rides with our team) will be staying in the overnight towns if you want to know. But it's not quite like calling up the Holiday Inn and asking for our room (it's a camping event). I promise we will have decent beer on tap, though, if it's worth your while to find us.
 

matt_dinges (67.31.129.17)
Posted on Wednesday, March 24, 2004 - 03:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Bill...please do...I'm certainly not afraid of crowds, even though I'm no Woodstock-vet, it doesn't seem daunting to me!

I've wanted to find some good campgrounds in IA anyhow....I promise if I show up I'll bring my best HBs and something commercially exciting as well. Here's to hope!

CHeers

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