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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * Archive through May 06, 2004 * Skotratís Traquair House Clone ll conference call... < Previous Next >

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RJ Testerman (208.31.88.53)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 05:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just finished brewing this for the first time and I have a question.

35# English 2 row
.35# English roasted barley

11.5 gal water dough in (1.3 qts per pound)

My first runnings were 1.096 I took out 2gal for the reduction to 1 pint, actually it would only reduce to about 6 cups, 2 hours of steady stirring. I then returned the 6 cups to the boil, then boiled for a total of 4 hours to get to the 10 gal. My after boil gravity is a whopping 1.109. Itís chilled to 64 and in the fermenter.

Is this 1.109 in the ballpark?
 

Skotrat (24.61.120.214)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

WOW!

That sounds excellent... In the ballpark? Well your grain bill sounds a little heavy for a 10 gallon batch.

To get 10 gallons at 75% eff you should have been in this ballpark:

29.5# Pale
.29# Roasted Barley

That would give you an Original Gravity of 1.085

Would I worry if I were you on this over achievement?

Hell No! I bet that the beer will be fantastic.

How did you come by those final grain amounts?

WOW!
1.109!

C'ya!

-Scott
 

Steve Anderson (205.188.116.23)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 11:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm about to float my last keg of of this recipe. Great stuff. I would think you may have a problem with your yeast pooping out on you before you get the gravity down to where it needs to be to balance out this beer. It is a malt monster to begin with. Perhaps you are creating a new category...Imperial Scotch Ale.
 

Paul Edwards (199.46.200.232)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like a job for...

MacBeano
 

Skotrat (24.61.120.214)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

Beano is for your A S S not for your beer.

Big Beers should have higher FG's to round them out.

Not an FG of 1.012 like a 1.050 beer.

It will be great...

C'ya!

-Scott
 

Bill Walton (160.36.158.53)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wouldn't mess with it at all and just be sure to have plenty of patience. The one time I made this recipe my O.G. was right around 1.110 too and I believe the F.G. was about 1.020-something (don't have my notes in front of me). The beer is great, it just has taken about 3 years for everything to round out and really come into its own. Steve's about right with the Imperial Scotch Ale, it tastes like Traquair House's big brother. If I were willing to give up the bottles I think it could compete as an Old Ale as well as a Wee Heavy, it's an amazingly complex beer.
 

Skotrat (24.61.120.214)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And damn tasty too Bill!
 

Paul Edwards (199.46.200.230)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry I forgot the smiley face, scott...

I wouldn't actually recommend Beano in a beer.

Following Bill P's mantra on starters for a beer of this size would be prudent, tho.

I did wonder what Mr Beano would look like in a kilt.
 

davidw (199.239.30.126)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In the absence of Bill P., who is probably sitting on the beach sipping on a Corona, as long as you pitched a large, heathly population of yeast and aerated well you will be fine.
 

davidw (199.239.30.126)
Posted on Friday, April 09, 2004 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Heh heh, great minds, Paul.
 

RJ Testerman (208.31.88.53)
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I lost my connection for a day or I would have gotten back soonerÖ

The grain bill was skewed because I fudged with the Promash calculations and not being absolutely sure of the system efficiency. Plus, I still havenít taken the time to develop an accurate enough measuring system for the brew kettle.

I am still wondering about the reduction though. As mentioned before, the first runnings were 1.096. After reducing it to about 6 cups it really didnít look like it was going to reduce any further.

Because it was so thick, I poured about 2 quarts of the boiling wort into the reduction so we could get it out of the kettle. It sputtered and hissed like the reduction was at a much higher temperature than 212dF. In other words - no water left. After the spoon cooled, the reduction turned to a hard candy coating.

Question: is this the way it turned out for you Scott, Denny, Bill?

Scott, You said the OG should be 1.085, do you determine that from total grain? Have you taken a reading? When?

Thanks everybody for your input.

RJ
 

RJ Testerman (208.31.88.53)
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 07:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

btw, I put it on a yeast cake as per Chumley's suggestion and I have been staying on top of the temp, it rose to 69 but after wet towels it's back down to 62.9.
 

RJ Testerman (208.31.88.53)
Posted on Saturday, April 10, 2004 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is what the reduction looked like:

candy
 

OverTheHill (4.246.102.164)
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where's my candy thermometer...malt carmel candy.
 

Skotrat (24.61.120.214)
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

Looks like you might have gone past the carmelization point and onto the hard candy point.

The beer will still be excellent.

"Scott, You said the OG should be 1.085, do you determine that from total grain? Have you taken a reading? When? "

I determine the OG from my grain bill, malt analisys specs from the maltster and by taking constant refractometer reading during the sparge.

I am always within 2 points of the recipes OG (+ or - 1).

When I am brewing to style like this recipe I make sure that I am an extremely detailed and project driven NAZIRAT!

There is a point where the runnings carmelize and they fill up with bubbles and attempt to boil over. This is carmelization. Maybe it is time for me to update my recipe with a carmelization watch dog text.

I do believe that your beer will kick butt either way!

C'ya!

-Scott
 

RJ Testerman (208.31.88.53)
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 06:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Scott, I'll likely brew this again in a couple of weeks, I've learned a lot on this one.

RJ
 

Tom Gardner (152.163.252.67)
Posted on Sunday, April 11, 2004 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Scott. So when it starts to bubble like that it's the time to stop? TIA, Tom
 

chumley (209.181.39.229)
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 03:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Man...that carmelly stuff looks like an excellent thing to put into wort.

This weekend I had my first draft pint of Fuller's ESB (have had numerous bottles before), and was overwhelmed by the carmelly flavor. Let us no how that beer turns out, RJ.
 

Skotrat (24.61.120.214)
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

My Suggestion:

Go grab the Betty Crocker or Red & white Checked Homes and Garden cook books out of your book case...

Everybody has one or the other. Look up carmelizing sugar or FLAN or Creme Brulle (sp?).

There should be a good explanation of how to carmelize sugar.

There is a chemical reaction that occurs as the wort gets to the point of carmelization.

First off the color will start to darken quickly.

As the last of the water starts to boil out the o2 starts to rise out in large bubbles much like the hot break before your wort comes to a boil...

Stir heavily during this period. Soon after the bubbles will fall and you should be good to go from a carmelization stand point.

Make Sense?

C'ya!

-Scott
 

chumley (63.227.170.198)
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Scott. Let me see if I am following.

As soon as you last see bubbles, and just have hot wort maybe at the boiling point, but still making more of a "plopping" release of gas (no thin bubble membranes), then it is time to pull it off the heat? And the stuff RJ made was probably cooked for a few minutes too long (as judging from his picture)?

It would seem to me that if you wanted to brew this from the lazy man's persepective, you could simply heat a pint of fresh LME in a pot, stirring constantly, then add it back to the wort. Or is there more to it?
 

RJ Testerman (208.31.88.53)
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 03:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When I was stirring that reduction and doing everything I could to keep that stuff from scorching for over two hours. I had a flashback to about 50 years ago helping my grandmother make candy, when finally one time she let me stir the candy until it was done. I remembered that after those large bubbles came up that you really couldnít reduce it any further and it was going to be ruined if I kept tryingÖ

I used a very good copper-stainless clad pot and a round of 1/8Ē sheet metal under the pot and stirred constantly for nearly 2 hours. The 1.096 first runnings were about the right gravity. My goal was to get the 2 gallons down to a pint as stated in the recipe, The point is I donít think itís possible.

My only mistake really was that I boiled the wort too long. That was our longest brew day yet over 10 hours, but next time we can do it in 6 knowing what we know now.

Btw it is quietly and steadily chugging away over in the corner at 63F.

Chumley, I thought you had brewed this before?
 

chumley (63.227.170.198)
Posted on Monday, April 12, 2004 - 04:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had, and while it came out very malty and good, it lacked the exagerated caramelly flavor of a Fuller's ESB. From reading Scott's description of the carmelization process, I started to think that maybe I didn't let the carmelizing go quite far enough. I started freaking out about scorching when I was around a quart, not quite down to a pint. So I want to give it another try.
 

RJ Testerman (208.31.88.53)
Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We just took a gravity reading it's at 1.022 we're going to rack to secondary. It's delicious, rich carmelly flavors Chumley...

I want to do this again, now, but I only have 20# of English 2 row left. I need 35#,should I use domestic 2 row, german pils for the rest or wait?
 

Skotrat (12.35.57.131)
Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

FANTASTIC!!!

Great to hear!

Glad it turn out well

C'ya!

-Scott
 

chumley (63.227.173.137)
Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 02:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That does it. Next time I'm a-boilin the first runnins' 'till it looks like toffee, as it does in RJ's picture.

(well the non-carmelized version ain't too bad either).

(P.S. If it were me, I would just use the Am. 2-row if you were itchin' to brew another one. Though I would suspect that Skot would suggest waiting until you secured another sack of Golden Promise. But I do not, under any circumstances, want to suggest to others out there possible shortcuts to Skot's recipes).
 

Skotrat (12.35.57.131)
Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 10:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

After using Golden Promise on this recipe I found it to be the best. I would think that would be the way to go. Although I have used many different Pale Malts on this beer nothing turns out as good as the batches brewed with GP.

C'ya!

-Scott
 

ELK (24.10.168.30)
Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 01:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You guys are making me hungry!! and thirsty....My project list is starting for the fall 04 brew season but I really should brew it now so it will be ready sooner..How long till a person can drink this candy?? Skot, maybe you should call out a candy temp in your recipe.
ELK
 

Skotrat (12.35.57.131)
Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 02:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

Elk... Good idea... Next time I brew it I will take a temp and do just that...

C'ya!

-Scott
 

ELK (24.10.168.30)
Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 04:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

RJ, skot and others who have brewed this candy cane ale...IT sounds like you would need help to stir for 2 hours.. I bet the last 1/2 hr was tough with that yummy candy looking stuff? What else goes on while you are stirring? I guess you would have about 1.5 hours extra assuming the sparge takes 30 minutes after you collect the 2 gals?
ELK
 

RJ Testerman (208.31.88.53)
Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 05:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The 1.5 hours is about right maybe 2. The first hour and a half is pretty easy, just the end that it gets intense. I would advise you to use a pattern when stirring and particularly IN the last half -DONíT GET SIDETRACKED UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES AND NEVER QUIT STIRRING.