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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * Archive through July 12, 2004 * Carapils usage < Previous Next >

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All grain mash conversion testPete Strunk07-06-04  11:36 pm
All grain mash conversion testCarlos Martinez07-06-04  11:07 pm
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Author Message
 

Frank Marsh
Junior Member
Username: Brewer

Post Number: 92
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I got into a little debate with Mr.Pierce about the use of carapils and the need for for mashing it with other base malts, my contention was that it could be treated like other crystal(in other words steeped) malts since it is produced in a similar manner. Some believe that it must be mashed with grains having suplus enzymes, which I took issue with. I contacted Briess to put this issue to bed, for me at least. According to the Manager of technical Services, Briess Carapils does not require mashing to be successfully used in brewing.During it's processing the starch is pregelatinized and broken down into more soluble polysaccharides that aid in building body and head retention in beer.
Live to Brew
Brew to Live
 

Jared Cook
Intermediate Member
Username: Jared

Post Number: 324
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not all carapils is created equal. Some do require mashing.
 

Tom Meier
Junior Member
Username: Brewdawg96

Post Number: 94
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jared,

I have a question for you.. Which ones do you know of that can't be steeped?

Knowing that fact would help.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 126
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Frank, the information I have that it is recommended to mash Carapils is from Mary Anne Gruber of Briess in 1999. However, she did say that the starch from a relatively small amount of Carapils (half a pound or so per 5 gallons) is unlikely to be a significant problem in an extract beer.

And I will stand by my statement that lack of body is seldom a problem in extract beers, which makes the use of Carapils largely unnecessary in that case. I'd rather use malto-dextrin if I wanted an extract beer with exaggerated body.
 

Greg Beron
Member
Username: Gberon

Post Number: 208
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 11:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had the same debate with my partners recently. It ended when I challenged them to find a single reputable book on homebrewing that did not advises against steeping Carapils. They couldn't. Carapils should be mashed.

Greg Beron
Culver City Home Brewing Supply
 

Frank Marsh
Junior Member
Username: Brewer

Post Number: 93
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 12:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I never disputed your statement that Malto Dextrin would be a good choice so I dont know why you keep bringing it up. I pointed out that a one member told a newer member that Carapils MUST be mashed and this is simply not true.The info I received was from Bob Hansen, Manager of Technical Services, Briess Industries.

Greg, The Brew Masters Bible for one, The BJCP study guide for 2, New Lager Brewing by Greg Noonan states that carapils/crystal are completely saccharified thats 3, Munich Helles by Horst Dornbusch(recipes call for carapils use in extract versions)4 need I go on???
Live to Brew
Brew to Live
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 127
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 01:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Frank, let's call it a draw here. My considered opinion is that Carapils is best mashed, but I acknowledge your point that the unconverted starch in Carapils malt is relatively minor and unlikely to be a significant problem if a small amount is steeped.

I mention malto-dextrin because I consider it a better option for extract brewers, but I accept your opinion.
 

Frank Marsh
Junior Member
Username: Brewer

Post Number: 94
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 01:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Done!
Live to Brew
Brew to Live
 

David Beckerdite
Member
Username: Darkislandfan

Post Number: 197
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh come now!
Bill, Frank, guy's you were just getting good at this. You can't quit now. Think about the rest of us who live vicariously through you. (I have no life
Nothing better to do....I think I'll go brew!
David B
 

Dave Witt
Intermediate Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 425
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I never steep it, I just hate grinding the stuff. Like glass.
 

John Baer
Junior Member
Username: Beerman

Post Number: 36
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've steeped it and mashed it and have not encountered a problem either way. As Frank alluded to, I find it curious that its usage is called for in so many extract recipes if it casues such potential for problems.

JB
 

Vance Barnes
Advanced Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 793
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 01:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

According to Breiss's statement it is gelatinized which is not the same as converted like crystal malts are. It goes on to describe the process as producing more soluble polysaccharides. That doesn't sound like short chain sugars that yeast could ferment. I think you could make alcohol from crystal without mashing but could not do so with carapils. Anybody got time to do the experiment?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 131
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 01:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John, you will find extract recipes that call for steeping malted wheat, munich malt and even flaked oats, as well as carapils malt. The truth is that all of these are best mashed.

There are a number of reasons the recipes sometimes include these ingredients. In some cases it's just plain ignorance on the part of the brewer who posted the recipe. In others it's the thought that "it's not very much grain and it won't do very much harm." Often that's true. And sometimes it's the fact that extracts made with these ingredients (flaked oats, for example) are difficult to obtain.

But from the standpoint of best practices, all of these are much better being mashed rather than steeped. It's not that steeping will "ruin" the beer, it's more that these are compromises with the potential to negatively affect quality.

I don't like to treat extract brewers as second class citizens. I'd like extract beers to be as good as possible, which is why I try to specify options that enable brewing the best beer possible.

But that's a personal prejudice for me. As always, people are free to do whatever they wish and what works for them.

(Ranting done)

(Message edited by BillPierce on July 07, 2004)
 

Tom Meier
Junior Member
Username: Brewdawg96

Post Number: 95
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But flaked and base malt grains aren't converted.

Carapils malt is made using a kilning procedure that effectively mashes/converts the starch inside the husk at a high temperature to create dextrins. Crystal malt is converted the same way, then heated at higher temps to caramelize the sugars.

So this is probably not unlike our own mashes, you need to do the malt house equivalent of an idodine test.. If Breiss really said its ok to steep, then its reasonable to assume their malt is fully converted

Because both carapils and crystal are converted in the husk, I have always thought of carapils as sort of a light crystal. It is really not much different than 10L crystal, just that it has more dextrins and less simple sugars, and wasn't heated to create caramelization.
 

Geoff Buschur
New Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 10
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You guys need to quit arguing and let the wizard settle this one. http://byo.com/mrwizard/776.html
 

Jared Cook
Intermediate Member
Username: Jared

Post Number: 325
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This thread should be merged with the yeast starter thread. It's the same argument over what you HAVE to do vs. what's BEST to do. People who say you don't HAVE to do something are not understanding that it may be BENEFICIAL to do it, and those who are saying it's BENIFICIAL are taking a hard line on doing it. I happen to fall in the latter group because making beer is not easy and takes way too much time to take shortcuts and risk making an inferior product.

So, no, you do not HAVE to do anything, but you do or don't do so at your own risk.
 

Hophead
Advanced Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 889
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Amen Jared.

Seems like the number of dead-horse-beating threads has increased dramatically since the forum came back online from near death. Must be the new softare...

Bring back the RECIPATOR!!! :-)
 

Jeffery Swearengin
Member
Username: Beertracker

Post Number: 242
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ahh...there's nothing quite like the sights & sounds of a "dead-horse" getting beat!
CHEERS! Beertracker

"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world." ~ Saint Arnold of Metz (580-640) - Patron Saint of Brewers

 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 535
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

Where is bd to ask how to start a Syphon when we need him?

C'ya!

-Scott

(Message edited by skotrat on July 07, 2004)