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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * Archive through August 30, 2004 * High alpha American Hops < Previous Next >

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J. Steinhauer
Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 160
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I haven't used many of the newer varieties. I'm kind of committed to the use of low alpha hops for all purposes. I want to know what I am missing, if anything significant. Are flowers like Amarillo, Warrior, etc. very distinct in flavor and aroma, or are they all simply variations on the citrusy PNW theme. In other words, are they high alpha cascades, allowing one to add 3 or 4 ounces to the kettle, instead of a pound and achieve the same bitterness, saving money and wort from absorption. However, I notice so many using these varieties for late additions. I want to know if there is really a point of dumping 30AAU's into the kettle at flameout, when 8AAU's will achieve the same thing.

I guess I believe that these hops are designed to help brewers save money, and not so much for me to flavor my 10 gallons of pale ale.

Steinhauer
 

robert rulmyr
Intermediate Member
Username: Wacobob

Post Number: 356
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just used Amarillo hops for the first time. I used for the flavor/aroma additions in a Pale Ale. I like them a lot. Not 'grapefruit' like at all...perhaps a little 'oranges' flavor?

You have another great question here JS!
 

Chet Nunan
New Member
Username: Chet

Post Number: 6
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would second the "orange" impression, vs. the grapefruity cascade - makes a great pale ale hop.
 

Joseph Listan
Member
Username: Poonstab

Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've been bittering with Horizon, and they seem to have a smoother bitterness than Perle (which I also liked).

One drawback is that you can easily overdo it if you don't have very accurate measurement, which I do not have. The smoothness helps, in case you overbitter; at least it isn't to much *harsh* bitterness, just too much bitterness.

So far, I have stuck with EKG, cascade, willamette, and fuggles for aroma hopping. My opinion on that is: Why mess with a good thing? However, I did throw about 1/2 oz of the horizons into a 10 gallon PA with 1.5 oz of PNW hops, and I didn't really notice anything unusual. They pretty much just blended in and I really couldn't tell they were there.
 

Wykowski
Senior Member
Username: Bigearl

Post Number: 1120
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

amarillo is a great multi-purpose hop (i love it as a dry-hop)
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3363
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2004 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What Big Earl said...I made an impy IPA that used 4 oz. (IIRC) Amarillo for bittering and another 4-5 oz. for dry hopping.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Jared Cook
Intermediate Member
Username: Jared

Post Number: 388
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 01:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm drinking a whimpy IPA made with all Amarillo right now. Love it. 1 oz Dry hop is not nearly enough. It's got such a good flavor that I'll definitely be FWHopping it from now on. Next time I'm making an impy like Denny's.
 

J. Steinhauer
Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 162
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 02:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

okay
 

robert knight
New Member
Username: Trebor

Post Number: 11
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny--4 to 5 ounces for how many gallons?
 

John Stegenga
New Member
Username: Bigjohn

Post Number: 2
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 12:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What about Yakama Magnum? I use it in one of my Pale Ales... typically 15-17 AA, but it seems to favor hallertau like flavors more than citrusy ones. Its a good complement to the Centennial, cascade, crystal type flavor and aroma hops.
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BigDog
New Member
Username: Bigdog

Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not trying to pimp out our competition, but we our having a 'limited entry' high alpha acid hop challenge using a variety of hops from a local brewery. Everyone entering has to use only the hops given to them and make 2 beers. Atleast 1 of the 2 beers has to be something other than an APA or IPA so that we get some interesting beers to see what these hops can do. Not sure of all the hops included but pretty sure Simcoe, Warrior, and Tomahawk will be in the hop kits. It should produce some interesting beers and see what other uses these hops can have besides the standard american hoppy beers. Anyone interested in participating can email me about this.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3364
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert, it was a 5 gal. batch. Don't have my notes handy, but IIRC, it was a 1.090 100+ IBU beer. Also, incredibly tasty!!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Hophead
Advanced Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 947
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Tuesday, August 24, 2004 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like what I made last weekend, 1.082 and 100+. Had 20oz of hop flowers (challenger & amarillo) in the kettle, which was very entertaining to keep them all churning along... Looking forward to this one.

J.S., back to your original question, to me it's a matter of preference of taste and smell of the hop, not how high the aa is. I don't really think many people get higher aa hops to save a buck or two in order to reach their ibus. One has infinite options on when to add the hops to get the right ibus AS WELL AS the right flavor/aroma/bitterness profile. Lately, I have been increasing the later additions with less bittering hops, and am enjoying the results.

Centennial, Columbus, Amarillo are generally higher aa than Cascade, but they lend a different flavor and aroma as well. I dry hop with columbus and/or centennial in some beers, which would seem a 'waste' of higher aa's, but I prefer them to cascades.
 

J. Steinhauer
Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 165
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 03:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's precisely what this is about. The descriptions are always "similar to cascades" or "citrusy PNW hops". Are they really that different? Dry hopping and flameout hopping don't add IBU's, so aa's don't matter so much, and you can add 20oz, if you like (at least according to the lore) without changing the bitterness (I'm not sure I believe that). On the other hand, 1 ounce of 15% Columbus for 15 minutes should contribute enough IBU's to balance a normal gravity pale ale with no other additions. For those who are realistic about aa utilization or who value true "balance" in a hoppy beer, this seems really inconvenient, as the flavor contribution of this one ounce, compared to (in some crops) 4 ounces of cascades, is minuscule. Those who market hops don't mention often the flavor and aroma compounds, only the alpha acids. I agree fully that it is not about the aa's, but I assert that it is in the mass of late hop additions, and 80 IBU's to achieve the desired flavor and aroma in a 1.053 beer is just not right.

Steinhauer
 

Jared Cook
Intermediate Member
Username: Jared

Post Number: 389
Registered: 09-2002
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are they really that different?

I think so. You may not. The answer to all of your questions will only be realized if you experiment yourself. Taste is just too subjective. You can hypothesize and pontificate about how different varieties might taste all day long and never know for yourself. This is kind of like discussing habaneros vs. jalapenos vs. serranos in chilli. Kind of pointless, you just have to try it.
 

George Schmidt
Junior Member
Username: Gschmidt

Post Number: 28
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 05:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is a great thread. In the past, I've avoided most of the American hops that are described as, "similar to Cascade." I don't like Cascade *gasp* never have, probably never will; I don't know why. Now this thread has me fired up to brew an all-Amarillo APA. I've never been overly fond of craftbrewed APA's or IPA's in the past, mostly because of the Cascades. If I can brew one myself without 'the American hop' I'd love it.

Thanks for the info, everybody.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 354
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two issues have been raised here. Steinhauer, it's (relatively) easy to quantify and measure hop bittering, which is why we can discuss and relate alpha acid percentages and IBUs. Flavor and aroma are vastly more subtle. There are vague notions about cohumulone levels, but in the end we have to rely on descriptors such as "citrusy" or "piney" or "spicy" or "flowery" for the relative and often subjective perceptions of flavor and aroma.

George, if you are not fond of the qualities of some American hops (you are not alone), try using other varieties. For example, excellent IPAs can be brewed using Target, Goldings and Fuggles.
 

J. Steinhauer
Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 168
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The subjectiveness of hops flavor and aroma is understood. The descriptors for bitterness are a load of crap as well: "Harsh","Round","Smooth"

What is "round" bitterness. It's different from "square" bitterness.

I disagree about the subtleness of flavor. PNW hops are not subtle. Saaz is not subtle. It is quite distinct. Fuggles are not subtle. I agree that if you use a small amount, than the effects are subtle. But the point I am trying to make is that if you add enough these high alpha acid hops to influence the flavor of a beer in a big way, lets say at least 2-3 ounces in per 5 gallons in the last 20 minutes of the boil, you will have way way way overbalanced the malt in your beer, unless your OG is 1.100, at which point you simply can't overdo it, except in soaking up more wort.

Maybe this is the answer to the question: High alpha acid hops have limited utility in normal gravity beers.

Self proclaimed "hop heads" may disagree, but most brewers and many hop-loving drinkers don't prefer hop-tea with a little sugar in it. They prefer an intensely hoppy flavored, aromatic experience with a balance of maltiness an bitterness.

George, try Liberty, Mt. Hood, Northern Brewer, as well. Fine American hops without the cascady flavors.

Steinhauer
 

Mike Huss
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 325
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Personally I love the "C" hops. I mean SNPA is now my lawnmower beer! Anyway, a while back I tried a Mendocino White Hawk Select IPA. I hated it when I normally love IPAs. From their website "This Select IPA has a unique aroma, a clean finish and is brewed to satisfy connoisseurs the world over. Weve blended American West Coast Cascade Hops with a very generous dose of English Fuggle Hops." Does that mean they used Fuggles for aroma and flavor? There was something there on the finish that I just didn't like, and I was wondering if that was it?
 

Vance Barnes
Advanced Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 949
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fuggles can give a very "earthy" flavor that I personally don't care for. Almost like a woody mushroom flavor. I'm careful how much Fuggles I use at the end of the boil. A little is not objectionable to me but a lot is.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 2151
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This weekend I'm finally getting around to brew the all-Glacier hops APA that I contemplated a month ago. The recipe so far is:

9 lbs. pale ale 2-row
1.5 lbs. Caravienne
0.25 lbs. Crystal 135L
1.5 oz. Glacier FWH
0.5 oz. Glacier 60 min
1 oz. Glacier 5 min
1 oz. Glacier 0 min
WY1272

Any comments on the hopping schedule? I'm after moderate bitterness but large flavor and aroma.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3370
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of our local brewpubs has had an all Glacier APA/IPA on for the last month or so...VERY tasty!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Hophead
Advanced Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 949
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 03:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

" High alpha acid hops have limited utility in normal gravity beers."

Not to beat a dead horse, but I don't really agree with this. A later addition of columbus or chinook has a huge impact on flavor without a lot of ibus. I also believe that adding hops at flameout DOES indeed effect the ibus/flavor, especially when it takes some time to start/finish the transfer to the fermenters (ie whirlpool and wait 15 minutes).

As for subtleness, how's this: Saaz is subtle in flavor contribution, but very obvious that it is saaz. Whereas Chinook is NOT subtle in flavor contribution, but also very obvious that it is chinook. In that sense saaz is 'subtle'.

Smooth I would describe as the perceived bitterness difference between 75 minute hops vs first wort hops. The round vs square debate I leave to the loonies...

By the way, if you're interested in amarillo's vs cascades in an apa, you may be pleasantly surprised with a hop called AHTANUM as well. Good luck!

(Message edited by hophead on August 25, 2004)
 

davidw
Advanced Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 632
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 04:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Heh heh! 'Normal' gravity beers for me typically have an OG around 65-70!!

That said, I'm with HH. I can easily imagine creating beers with OG's in the high 40's to 50's and using high AA hops at any point in the process and still produce a beer with good balance if that's what I'm shooting for.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3372
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, basically what we're coming up with here is that not everyone's tastes are the same. Imagine that!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

davidw
Advanced Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 633
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, August 25, 2004 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wise beyond his years, that Denny Conn.
 

J. Steinhauer
Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 170
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Thursday, August 26, 2004 - 03:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I will not argue with the fact that some drinkers like bitterer beers, and that perception of balance is subjective. I'm not trying to offend anyone's senses, but to have a discussion. If you perceive 100 IBU's in a 1.040 beer as tasty, then I fully recommend that you brew to those tastes. But I would be interested in how an OBJECTIVELY highly hopped but balanced beer with OG 1.050, say, is hopped with 15%aa hops, say 40-60IBU's. 'twould be difficult to achieve bold hop character (more than just bitterness) using only these hops with the small quantities used (10 grams in for 60 minutes is all it takes, leaving no room for late boil additions). You have to rely heavily on dry hopping (which is okay). Dry hopping soaks up finished beer, though, while boil additions can be accounted for in the recipe, and not affect what gets into the fermenter.

If you routinely brew beers with OG's over 1.070, especially finishing around 1.015-1.020, then I see no reason why unlimited quantities of hops of any kind will pose a balance problem, given the limitations of utilization. It's the FG that governs the perceived "balance" anyway. I usually produce smaller beers than that. Denny, I'm not 60 yet. At that point, I can hopefully retire and drink few 1.060+ beers every night.

Would anyone here brew an ordinary bitter with only 5 grams of hops in the boil? Or would you simply choose different hops?


Steinhauer

sorry for the weird word up there. I couldnt use s-period-space-capital I-small t without being censored out.