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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * Archive through August 30, 2004 * Help designing a hops experiment < Previous Next >

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J. Steinhauer
Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 174
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 03:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay,

I need to compare some hops varieties.

Here's part of the plan. I will produce parallel one gallon batches of extract wort at 1.046 OG and ferment with WLP001. I will use only pellet hops.

Here's where the trouble starts. How to decide what equivalent hops additions are to each brew.

Do I use the same IBU's in each, or the same mass of hops in each at the same boilng times? Clearly, one way, I get equivalent bitterness, the other way, I get more equivalent flavor/aroma intensities.

If I use the same IBU's, should I keep this constant by varying the total mass of hops, or by varying the boil times, and if I change the total mass, should I alter each addition proportionately or change the bittering addition only.

Constructive input is appreciated. This is a serious venture. The most important factor to me here is comparing the qualities of the flavor and aroma. But we know that bitterness levels will affect my perceptions of these other qualities.

Thanks in advance.

Steinhauer
 

Kent Fletcher
Intermediate Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 462
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Given that the overall bitterness will affect perception, I would say you have to scale your hop additions by IBUs. At least the bittering hops should be.

Since you want to be able to compare flavor and aroma, might I suggest that you use one bittering hop for all, and then vary the later additions? A low-co high alpha hop (like Warrior) that produces a clean, rather neutral bitterness might be best, if you take the common bittering hop route.
 

Wykowski
Senior Member
Username: Bigearl

Post Number: 1124
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

YES,
I'd do it by IBUs for the Boil, and by weight for flavor/aroma

maintain the same hopping times
 

Dan Listermann
Intermediate Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 405
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A local brew club, the Cincinnati Malt Infusers, did a similar test a few years ago. They made enough wort to make 9 five gallon batches and used a different hop in each batch weight balanced to a predetermined IBU level. I don't believe they used any hops for flavor or aroma.

Taste testing was very interesting. For the most part there was little difference. It was possible to pick up a difference between some but one had to really think about it. It showed me that hop variety for bittering is not as important as some might believe.

Dan Listermann
 

Bill Tobler
Intermediate Member
Username: Billt

Post Number: 258
Registered: 08-2001
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Dan. You would need one heck of a palate to tell the difference in bittering hops. I would ignore the AA's and use weight's for flavor and aroma. Maybe 10-30 minute's for flavor hops and less than 10 for aroma hops. They should all be as fresh as possible. Use one bittering hop for all batches as Kent suggested. Dry hopping would have to be a whole different test, me thinks...

Feel free to call on any of us to help taste...
Bill Tobler
Lake Jackson,Texas
BrewBayou
My Brewery
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3388
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Use one bittering hop for all batches as Kent suggested."...but there are real differences between using low cohumulone and high cohumulone hops for bittering that are interesting to experiment with. I guess it would all depend on what types of hops you were interested in testing. For instance, there wouldn't be a world of difference between Cascade and Chinook for bittering, but there would be a dramatic difference between either of those and Magnum.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Pacman
Intermediate Member
Username: Pacman

Post Number: 359
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Testing the bittering additions sounds like another experiment....

since he said "The most important factor to me here is comparing the qualities of the flavor and aroma." I would go with the suggestions to use the same bittering hop for each and go by weight for the flavor/aroma additions... I don't think the later additions of hops are going to affect the bitterness enough to mess with the flavor/aroma perceptions....
Damn Brewing's Fun!!!!
 

Wykowski
Senior Member
Username: Bigearl

Post Number: 1127
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

but there are real differences between using low cohumulone and high cohumulone hops for bittering that are interesting to experiment with

yes, I think one type of hop per gallon will satisfy your experimental curiousity more
You remember that foul evening when you heard the banshees howl
There was lousy drunken bastards singing 'Billy is in the bowl'
They took you up to midnight mass and left you in the lurch
So you dropped a button in the plate and spewed up in the church

 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3389
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Testing the bittering additions sounds like another experiment.... "...uh, yeah, you're right. I should stop posting when hung over and sleepy!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Pacman
Intermediate Member
Username: Pacman

Post Number: 360
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

uh, yeah, you're right. I should stop posting when hung over and sleepy!

it hasn't stopped me denny..
Damn Brewing's Fun!!!!
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3391
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And you notice it's not stopping me, either! ;)
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Bob B
Member
Username: Bobb

Post Number: 148
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, August 27, 2004 - 08:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

J.

Are you planning on boiling several separate one gallon batches? Sounds like a graduate research assistant's task of some major professor's whim. . Don't know if I would be up to boiling 5 to 10 separate one gallon batches.

Since the opinion of others are to focus more on aroma and flavor, have you considered dry hopping, at least for a first run? This way you can make a single 5 to 10 gallon batch of a base "bittered" wort and divide it up into the one gallon containers.

Cheers,

Bob
 

J. Steinhauer
Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 175
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Saturday, August 28, 2004 - 12:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, yes several different boils. It's not that big of a hassle. Small batches can go on the stove, and I can set a timer so I can do other things. A malt experiment would be much more difficult, as a mash would be involved with every single sample (unless just comparing crystal or roasted malts).

I will dry hop every one. Dry hop aroma must be compared. I order a 2-4 ounces of new pellets of several different varieties from one reliable source. I like whole hops better, but not all varieties are readily available whole, and the age and storage of the hops has less effect on the pellets.

My thoughts are to match masses at 15 minutes, flameout and dry then to match IBU's with 60 minute additions. But this still is not perfect control.

15 minutes with 10 grams of 15% hops compared to 15 minutes of the same amount of 6-7% hops leaves rooom for about 6 grams at the start of the boil. The difference in the character of the bitternesses (?) of these two samples may affect the ability to properly compare the late hops character. But it's probably the best way.

With all of this in mind, how does the imparted bitterness differ (ignoring flavor and aroma for now) if it is all added at the 15 minute slot, instead of at the 60 minute slot? If you double your bittering addition, and add it for 15 minutes instead, you get the same IBU's. Undoubtedly, the bitter character will differ, but you will also get much better aroma and flavor "utilization" from your hops.

Steinhauer