| Author |
Message |
    
Jim O'Conner
Advanced Member
Username: Roguejim
Post Number: 558
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 216.239.160.71
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 06:16 pm: | 
|
Can someone provide a link to the latest version of this recipe? Thanks.
Jim
|
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 3501
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 07:31 pm: |
|
I believe the recipe in John Palmer's How to Brew is accurate: http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter19-4.html |
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1001
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 07:46 pm: |
|
I believe I recall putting two of Jeff Renner's HBD posts together to come up with Renner CAP Updated.doc
If it's not right, someone will let us know.
(Message edited by Ken75 on September 17, 2005) |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 1850
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 06:51 pm: |
|
I think Ken's matches that latest I've seen. Seems like he just eliminated the high end protein rest and went with the mash in at 144. Much easier to sub flaked maize and loose the cereal mash.
I'm about to blow a keg of CAP  But I still have 5 gal lagering and just waiting to be kegged  |
Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p
Post Number: 1595
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 07:03 pm: |
|
"I'm about to blow a keg "
I'm not going to touch this offering to the comedy gods.
-Doug |
Geoff Buschur
Advanced Member
Username: Avmech
Post Number: 927
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.174.22.28
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 07:07 pm: |
|
I'd rather blow a CAP than blow a Bass.
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
~Woody Harrelson as Roy Munson in Kingpin
|
4 Hounds Brewing Co.
Junior Member
Username: 4houndsbc
Post Number: 98
Registered: 07-2002
Posted From: 12.18.36.40
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 07:13 pm: |
|
I just dropped Jeff a line (he is a club mate). I will post his reply (or he will reply in this forum).
Cheers!
Jim |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 3646
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 71.37.188.229
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 07:32 pm: |
|
I see B&V posters Rob Beck and Tom Gardner took 1st and 2nd places, respectively, with their CAPs at MCAB:
http://hbd.org/mcab/VII_results.htm
Maybe they will see this thread and post their recipes? |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 1852
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 09:11 pm: |
|
Skot's got a good recipe too. You can find it on his website.
"I'm about to blow a keg "
Think I was still a little fuzzy from all the Belgian blondes I had last night (another offering to the comedy gods). } |
Rob Beck
Member
Username: Robbeck
Post Number: 205
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 64.216.143.147
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 12:00 am: |
|
My CAP recipe is basically taken from Renner with a few adjustments made each time I make it.
6 3/4 lb. Weyermann Pils malt
3 1/2 lb. flaked maize
1 lb. Weyermann light Munich malt
1/2 lb. Weyermann Carafoam malt
3/4 oz. Saaz flowers(2.6%) FWH
2/3 oz. Cluster pellets(7.4%) 60 min.
0.7 oz. US Tettnang flowers(4.5%) 60 min.
1/2 oz. US Tettnang flowers(4.5%) 8 min.
1/4 oz. Saaz flowers(2.6%) 8 min. after boil end
1/2 oz. US Tettnang flowers(4.5%) 8 min. after boil end
Wyeast 2035 - American Lager
134 degF 11 min.
150 degF 34 min.
156 degF 70 min.
166 degF mash out and recirculation 47 min.
Primary fermentation 14 days at 50 degF (this includes a 3 day diacetyl rest at 57 degF)
Secondary fermentation 5 days at 56 degF to 34 degF
Tertiary fermentation 44 days at 30 degF
SG 1060
FG 1015
mash pH 5.2
pre boil wort pH 5.3
post boil wort pH 5.5
boil time 75 min. |
Fred Bonjour
Junior Member
Username: Bonjour
Post Number: 29
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.14.60.55
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 01:06 am: |
|
Rob,
May I place your recipe on a web page?
Fred
http://beerdujour.com/AwardWinningRecipes.htm
|
Rob Beck
Member
Username: Robbeck
Post Number: 206
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 64.216.143.147
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 01:42 pm: |
|
Fred,
Yes you may. I'd be honored. |
4 Hounds Brewing Co.
Junior Member
Username: 4houndsbc
Post Number: 99
Registered: 07-2002
Posted From: 69.14.147.74
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 01:46 pm: |
|
From Jeff himself (in typical, detailed Rennerian ) :
The basics in my handout from the NHC still apply with one difference
- I don't do a mash in at 104F anymore. It seems superfluous with
modern malts, although it won't hurt. And passing through the
protein rest briefly on the way from 104 to 145 does seem to slightly
improve foam stand. But I just mash in the main mash at 144-146 and
rest it there.
Some minor differences and/or comments:
* I haven't been able to get 6-row malt lately. I still prefer it,
but 2-row works fine.
* I have taken to pressure cooking the cereal mash after it rests at
~153F 20-30 minutes. I put it in an 8-qt ss pot, then put this in a
22-qt pressure cooker and cook it at 15 psi (240F) for 20-30
minutes. This is traditional - some brewers were pressure cooking
mashes 100 years ago.
This has several advantages. If eliminates scorching since you are
not applying heat directly to the bottom of the vessel that holds the
mash. It can be quicker since you really only need a few minutes at
240F to completely cook even coarse brewers grits. I cook longer
than necessary to develop some extra flavor similar to decoction
mashing. (BTW, I have also been doing this as a pseudo-decoction
with ~1/3 of my mash in all malt lagers).
I wouldn't recommend this if you are using rice rather than corn.
Old texts warn against over-cooking rice as it can lead to stuck
mashes, although I've had no experience. Besides, if you are using
rice, it's probably to get that light, crisp style, and the richer
flavor and slightly darker color are inappropriate.
The disadvantage is that it requires a pretty big pressure cooker. I
have an "All American" brand model 921 that I really like. It has no
gasket, but rather a metal to metal seal. I got it used from a
friend. You can get them on eBay, too. It is also good for pressure
canning yeast starters. It hold seven quart mason jars.
* Hopping - I really like the traditional flavor of Cluster for
bittering hops, but use just about any noble or noble-type for first
wort hopping. I typically will use American varieties such as Mt.
Hood, Liberty of Crystal as these are usually fresher. Including the
contribution of the FWH, I aim for mid to upper 30s IBUs.
* My target gravity is 1.050-1.052, with 75-80% attenuation. My
batch last spring got an amazing 84%! 1.050--> 1.008. It was really
crisp and dry. I think I got it because the repitched yeast seemed a
little slow (surprisingly) to finish, so I just left it in the
primary at 48F for six weeks, then kegged it and lagered it another
two weeks or so under pressure. It was great, but all in all I think
I prefer the slightly richer, less alcoholic 75% aa.
* I LOVE WhiteLabs WLP822 German Bock yeast, which is from
Ayinger. It's too bad they couldn't name it Ayinger, but since
that's the name of the only brewery in the village of Aying in
Bavaria, they couldn't claim it was simply a geographic name. It is
good for so much more than simply Bocks. They chose the name because
the Ayinger brewery is famous for its bock. The yeast works great
for CAPs and almost any other lager.
Hope this helps. It's great to see so many people brewing this great
style. I have contacts with brewers in UK, Australia, NZ, South
Africa, Norway, Netherlands, Austria and even (gasp!) Germany who
brew it and love it.
Jeff |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 1857
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 04:26 pm: |
|
I like the bock yeast for a CAP but my favorite is the German lager. I tried it with the American pils yeast and guess what, it came out thin and with a lot less flavor. Who would'a thought it.
I need to keg the 5 gal that's done with the bock yeast before I run out of the keg done with the German lager yeast. Want to do a side by side tasting to compare. |
Roger Herpst
Intermediate Member
Username: Roger456
Post Number: 272
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 64.142.50.192
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 04:43 pm: |
|
I've had a CAP on deck for a while, and now that I've got my new chest freezer I'll be able to do it. However, I was in a rush down at the LHBS and picked up Bavarian lager yeast instead of Bohemian. Has anybody used this for lighter lagers?
Wyeast description:
2206 Bavarian Lager Yeast. Used by many German breweries to produce rich, full-bodied, malty beers. Good choice for Bocks and Dopplebocks. Flocculation - medium; apparent attenuation 73-77%. (46-58° F, 8-14° C) |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 3521
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 04:45 pm: |
|
Wyeast 2206 is my yeast of choice for malty lagers. I consider it a general purpose lager strain, as do many brewpubs. |
Roger Herpst
Intermediate Member
Username: Roger456
Post Number: 273
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 64.142.50.192
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 04:54 pm: |
|
Thank you. I am just starting to try different yeasts, and those descriptions are near to meaningless without hearing other peoples thoughts/experience. |
Fred Bonjour
Junior Member
Username: Bonjour
Post Number: 31
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.14.60.55
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 02:03 am: |
|
Thanks Rob,
It's up here
http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/RobBeckCAP1stPlace.htm
Linked from my Award Winning Recipe page.
Any other comments you would like included?
again,
thanks
Fred
http://beerdujour.com/AwardWinningRecipes.htm
|
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 04:58 pm: |
|
A few things in Jeff's info stand out to me.
Check out that mash temperature of 144 to 146. How many homebewer's shoot for THAT low a temperature? Myself, I do shoot for the low side, because if anything, home brew seems to tend towards too "thick."
Jeff likes Cluster. Daniels slams Cluster in his book.
Jeff left his lager in the primary for 6 weeks at 48F! MY MAN! Then he kegged and let it sit for 2 more weeks. What I see here is a real blurring between what has conventionally been regarded as primary, secondary, and lagering. I tend toward this technique, and I think it's pretty cool.
Also, pretty sure the White Labs German Bock is WLP833.
Ken |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 3652
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 71.37.188.229
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 05:11 pm: |
|
Daniels slams Cluster while admitting he's never tried it. Seems to be some sort of AHA thing, slamming things you have never tried. |
Greg Beron
Intermediate Member
Username: Gberon
Post Number: 453
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 71.106.26.3
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 06:06 pm: |
|
Ken,
If you read the notes from Renner's earlier CAP recipes, he conducts a step mash. Since he discusses how he does a pseudo-decoction with his cereal mash, it seems pretty clear that he's mashing in at 144-5F, then using the cereal mash/decoction to raise the temperature for a step in the mid-high 150s.
However, I will say that I agree with you about many homebrews being too dextrous, which is why I mash my CAPs at 150F.
Greg Beron
Culver City Home Brewing Supply
www.brewsupply.com
|
Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p
Post Number: 1597
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 06:06 pm: |
|
Rob,
I would normally have turned my nose up at your recipe because you use more hops for flavor and aroma than I would ever use for a CAP, but I will give it a try this spring.
Clusters are a great bitting hop that carries its flavor through the finished product. I have heard many brewers bad mouth them without ever using them. In fatc my LHBS store stopped carrying them! Now I have to have them special order them for me.
-Doug |
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 07:10 pm: |
|
"But I just mash in the main mash at 144-146 and rest it there."
He doesn't say how long this rest is, but starch conversion can occur in only a few minutes.
"I have taken to pressure cooking the cereal mash after it rests at ~153F 20-30 minutes."
I don't understand this. A cereal mash (in this case) is simply the corn (polenta?), correct? Why let it sit at ~153F. It has no converting enzymes in it. Most likely I don't know what a cereal mash is?
I know I'm missing something. I've never done a decoction, or even a step-mash, though I believe I understand the process and expected results.
Learn me something here!
Ken |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 1866
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 07:33 pm: |
|
"I have taken to pressure cooking the cereal mash after it rests at ~153F 20-30 minutes."
That's to allow the 6 row that's in the cereal mash to convert. Just like a decoction where you pull it, let it rest at conversion temp, and then bring to a boil before adding back to the mash.
To be honest I'm not clear on why you even need any base malt in a cereal mash IF the only purpose is to gelatinize the starches in the corn or rice. In a decoction it makes sense as you're converting the starches already gelatinized before boiling. Could it just be a traditional carryover of decoctions that doesn't really do anything? Anyone? |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 3527
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 07:42 pm: |
|
If you've ever done a cereal mash with corn you'll know why some (about 10 percent) base malt is recommended. It's to provide husk material so the corn doesn't become a gooey, pasty mess. Six-row is best because it has more husks, but as a practical matter you can use two-row. |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 3653
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 71.37.188.229
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 07:59 pm: |
|
When the trace amount of six-row converts in a cereal mash, the cereal mash becomes far less gooey and viscous. Trust Jeff on this one. I think its more about the enzyme conversion, and less about the husks. |
Jim O'Conner
Advanced Member
Username: Roguejim
Post Number: 560
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 216.239.160.71
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 08:10 pm: |
|
I've never used 6-row, but isn't there a noticeably different flavor in the finished CAP than using 2-row. Grainier?
Jim
|
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 08:13 pm: |
|
Sounds like it's for both the enzymes and husks. Both to help with the gooeyness. Do you do a beta gluten rest with a ceral mash too?
I'm lazy and keep 10 lb of flaked maize in the freezer myself. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 3529
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 08:29 pm: |
|
Jim, six-row has a slightly "grainier" flavor than two-row, but the difference is not pronounced. |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 3654
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 71.37.188.229
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 08:40 pm: |
|
I just let it rest for 15 minutes at 150-155°F and then boil it.
If I use 2-row instead of 6-row in a CAP, I usually throw in about 0.5-0.75 lbs. of flaked barley into the mash. The Muessdoerffer Spitz Malt available now looks like it would be interesting in a CAP. |
Miker
Intermediate Member
Username: Miker
Post Number: 285
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 69.15.183.207
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 02:35 pm: |
|
I would consider the grainier difference between 6-row and 2-row quite noticeable, maybe even pronounced.
Pesonally, I think if you use the 2-row for a CAP you aren't really making a CAP. That being said, I prefer the taste of 2-row myself - its just a totally different beer imho. |
Tom Gardner
Advanced Member
Username: Tom
Post Number: 691
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 67.190.191.177
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:35 am: |
|
Howdy folks, sorry for the delay. This is the recipe that won 2nd in the MCAB this year (out of 3). This recipe looks a lot like Rob's except for the yeast. The judge's comments are usually "not crisp enough", but I haven't received the MCAB results yet. I split this batch between WLP 830 and 833. The 830 was what I entered. the 833 was more like a cream ale. I've never used an American Lager yeast. Anyone care to compare the differences? I fermented this for 2 weeks at 50F, then did a diacetyl rest at basement temperature for 2-3 days, then secondary at 50F for 2 weeks before lagering. I also agree with Miker about pils malt and that I like 2 row better.
2005-04-03 CAP
A ProMash Brewing Session Report
--------------------------------
Brewing Date: Sunday April 03, 2005
Head Brewer: Tom Gardner
Asst Brewer:
Recipe: CAP
Recipe Specifics
----------------
Batch Size (Gal): 11.50 Wort Size (Gal): 11.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 24.00
Anticipated OG: 1.063 Plato: 15.3
Anticipated SRM: 5.7
Anticipated IBU: 28.6
Brewhouse Efficiency: 80 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes
Actual OG: 1.060 Plato: 14.7
Actual FG: 1.015 Plato: 3.8
Alc by Weight: 4.63 by Volume: 5.94 From Measured Gravities.
ADF: 74.0 RDF 61.9 Apparent & Real Degree of Fermentation.
Actual Mash System Efficiency: 91 %
Anticipated Points From Mash: 62.56
Actual Points From Mash: 71.27
Grain/Extract/Sugar
% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
75.0 18.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
20.8 5.00 lbs. Flaked Corn (Maize) America 1.039 1
4.2 1.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.
Hops
Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 5.80 7.3 First WH
1.00 oz. Tettnanger Pellet 4.00 5.0 First WH
1.50 oz. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 5.80 14.6 60 min.
0.50 oz. Tettnanger Pellet 4.00 0.7 5 min.
0.50 oz. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 5.80 1.0 5 min.
Extras
Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
3.00 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)
Yeast
-----
White Labs WLP833 Bock (Ayinger)
Mash Schedule
-------------
Mash Type: Multi Step
Heat Type: Direct
Grain Lbs: 24.00
Water Qts: 28.75 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 7.19 - Before Additional Infusions
Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.20
Tun Thermal Mass: 0.10
Grain Temp: 66 F
Dough In Temp: 160 Time: 0
Acid Rest Temp: 0 Time: 0
Protein Rest Temp: 0 Time: 0
Intermediate Rest Temp: 145 Time: 30
Saccharification Rest Temp: 158 Time: 30
Mash-out Rest Temp: 168 Time: 15
Sparge Temp: 0 Time: 0
Runnings Stopped At: 1.010 SG 2.6 Plato
Total Mash Volume Gal: 9.11 - After Additional Infusions
All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit. |
Richard Nye
Advanced Member
Username: Yeasty_boy
Post Number: 920
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.225.248.227
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:49 pm: |
|
I'm going to make Renner's CAP next weekend. I'm going to use flaked corn and forget the cereal mash. The question is, should I just do a single infusion mash around 150-152 or should I do a step mash (as Renner suggests) at 140-144 and 156-158? |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 3542
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 01:00 pm: |
|
My feeling is that a single infusion will be sufficient (keep it about 150 F), but you will likely have somewhat increased fermentability with a step mash. |
Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 01:02 pm: |
|
I have done nothing but single infusions at 152F and love the results. I have also done this recipe (actually his original recipe with clusters and styrian goldings) with pale malt instead of pils and really liked the pale malt versions. I plan on doing back to back pils vs. pale this spring with the same yeast and same hops to see which one I like best.
-Doug |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 1882
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 02:03 pm: |
|
I've never used an American Lager yeast
Don't! Unless you want to make a NAIL. |
Rob Beck
Member
Username: Robbeck
Post Number: 207
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 68.94.113.174
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:14 pm: |
|
Tom,
I had used the WhiteLabs 833 Bock yeast on my last several CAPs. I wanted to get a slightly more dry and crisp finish, so I tried the Wyeast 2035 American Lager this time. According to everything I've read, it's supposed to be the Schells strain and as I remember their Deer Beer, it had the finish that I was shooting for. The WhiteLabs gave me 73% apparent attenuation, while the Wyeast gave me 75%, with both of them working at 50 degF. |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 3667
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 207.225.3.167
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 04:12 am: |
|
I'd have to agree with Rob - the best CAP I have ever made was with WY2035. Actually, the best schwarzbier I ever made was with WY2035. Note to self: Order WY2035 in late November when lager brewing season comes around again. |
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