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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2005 * Archive through November 16, 2005 * FWH, first attempt < Previous Next >

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Joakim Ruud
New Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.54.29
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 11:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gonna try first wort hopping next weekend, for the first time. I had a bad experience with dryhopping, got an infection, which kinda put me off it for a while.

So now I'm gonna brew an APA with no dry hopping of the Cascade, just FWH. I've read alot about it, and it all seems completely counterintuitive, but if it really works, then it would seem to be much safer than dry hopping.

I'm aiming for about 35 IBU, OG somewhere in the fifties, some light crystal malt (200 g) and a generous amount of Cascade flavour hops. Can't wait :-)
 

Graham Cox
Intermediate Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 287
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.244.96
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My experience with FWH is that you get LOTS of hop flavor, but not so much of an enduring hop aroma. I'd still dry hop an APA.

Although it's certainly possible that your infection on your other batch resulted from dry hopping, I doubt it. Hops are naturally anti-microbial.
 

Joakim Ruud
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Username: Joques

Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.54.29
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting, what I've read so far seems to inducate that FWH increases aroma, not flavour. I guess I'll find out :-)

Regarding the infection, I think (if indeed it is an infection, not some other metallic off-flavour) that it came from my handling of the hop bag, not from the hops themselves.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 1899
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.226
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 01:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are a lot of things claimed by FWH believers, but aroma is not one of them. I don't think you can compare the FWH to dry hopping.

It is doubtful that dry hopping caused your infection. If you don't want to dry hop, consider just adding the hops after you cut the gas. This produces a very nice flavor and aroma.

Dan Listermann

--This space is again being left intentionally blank.-


 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1004
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.174.22.28
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From John Palmer's How to Brew (www.howtobrew.com)

First Wort Hopping
An old yet recently rediscovered process (at least among homebrewers), first wort hopping (FWH) consists of adding a large portion of the finishing hops to the boil kettle as the wort is received from the lauter tun. As the boil tun fills with wort (which may take a half hour or longer), the hops steep in the hot wort and release their volatile oils and resins. The aromatic oils are normally insoluble and tend to evaporate to a large degree during the boil. By letting the hops steep in the wort prior to the boil, the oils have more time to oxidize to more soluble compounds and a greater percentage are retained during the boil.

Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH, and the amount should be no less than 30% of the total amount of hops used in the boil. This FWH addition therefore should be taken from the hops intended for finishing additions. Because more hops are in the wort longer during the boil, the total bitterness of the beer in increased but not by a substantial amount due to being low in alpha acid. In fact, one study among professional brewers determined that the use of FWH resulted in a more refined hop aroma, a more uniform bitterness (i.e. no harsh tones), and a more harmonious beer overall compared to an identical beer produced without FWH.

Dry Hopping
Hops can also be added to the fermenter for increased hop aroma in the final beer. This is called "dry hopping" and is best done late in the fermentation cycle. If the hops are added to the fermenter while it is still actively bubbling, then a lot of the hop aroma will be carried away by the carbon dioxide. It is better to add the hops (usually about a half ounce per 5 gallons) after bubbling has slowed or stopped and the beer is going through the conditioning phase prior to bottling. The best way to utilize dry hopping is to put the hops in a secondary fermenter, after the beer has been racked away from the trub and can sit a couple of weeks before bottling, allowing the volatile oils to diffuse into the beer. Many homebrewers put the hops in a nylon mesh bag - a Hop Bag, to facilitate removing the hops before bottling. Dry hopping is appropriate for many pale ale and lager styles.

When you are dry hopping there is no reason to worry about adding unboiled hops to the fermenter. Infection from the hops just doesn't happen.


I can tell you from experience that FWH is great for flavor hops but adds very little if any aroma. I have eliminated flavor additions during the boil (any hops added between the 5 minute to 30 minute mark) from most of my recipes. I think it is very nice to only worry about bitter hops and flame out hops...the FWH are already in the kettle.

My suggestion since you are afraid to dry hop is to go ahead and FWH and then throw in at least 2 ounces of aroma hops at flame out. This will not get you as much aroma as dry hopping, but you won't have to worry about infection.

If you do decide to dry hop again you can always dip the sock in StarSan before use or I like to saturate the sock with water and microwave it for about 45 to 60 seconds.

Keep in mind that infection post fermentation is more difficult than one would think. First the pH level and the alcohol levels make it very difficult for most organisms to survive and those that can survive do not have much food to live off of since the yeast has already made use of it. An exception is the I think I just made vinegar thread going on right now.
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Joakim Ruud
New Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.7.34
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 02:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan and Geoff, thank you for the information. I have been dry hoppping quite a lot before, just dumping the hops in the fermenter. This time I tried using a hop bag, since I invariably end up with some hops in the bottles,and it just doesn't look very nice having brownish hop remnants floating on top of an otherwise great creamy head :-)

I realize the hops themselves weren't the culprits, but I rather thought that the hop bag was. But I was very careful, boiling the bag, sterilizing the fork I used to transfer the hops to the bag, using disposable plastic bags inside-out on my hands (which I always do when bottling, and it has worked so far) - in short, I did everything I could to guard against infection.

Still, there is that metallicky off-flavour that just plain bugs me. And of course, the hops and hop bag was exposed to airborne microbes for much longer than it would usually have been, while I took all these precautions.


I'm beginning to wonder if I might have used too much. The beer even has a slightly greenish tint in the bottles. But then again I didn't use much more than Fullers uses in their ESB. I used about an ounce of EK Goldings for a 5 gallon batch of ESB (roughly, I use metric measurements), which is about half again as much as Fullers, but I figured I had to use more when using a hop bag.

Maybe what the beer needs is simply some storage? I haven't had this problem before, though, but then I've never dryhopped with EKG before, either. Only Cascade.

Again, thanks for all tips!
 

Connie
Advanced Member
Username: Connie

Post Number: 532
Registered: 10-2000
Posted From: 24.30.0.91
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 02:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I may be living on the dirty edge, but I wash my hop bags with the water hose and dry draped over the top of a keg, store in a plastic bag. When I dry hop I don't do anything special with the bag...just dust it off, load it up, tie it off and drop it in the secondary with a SS ball bearing. beer!
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 3773
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I wouldn't be so quick to claim infection. Give the beer some time. You may come to like it a lot with some aging. If it is in fact infected (as Graham says, beer is quite resistant to most microorganisms), it will only get worse. A little patience will tell.
 

Mark Zgarrick
Member
Username: Maz

Post Number: 166
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.104.202.98
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just adding another data point on dry hopping. I primarily use hop pellets, and have dry hopped by just dumping them in the secondary. Good results, but waiting for the pellets to drop to the bottom is a pain and I was also getting some hop material in the bottle or keg as well.

Last week I decided to dry hop an all-amarillo amber ale. I boiled one of my nylon hop bags for about 5 minutes. I put it in the neck of the carboy and filled it with an ounce of the dry hops, tied the string and dropped it in. I kegged it on Saturday and it came out great - loads of aroma (of course) and no infection. I was even able to grab the string and pull the bag out without a problem. This is definitely my new procedure from now on.
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1006
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.174.22.28
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

[hijack]
Hey Mark, how do you like that Amarillo Amber?
[/hijack]
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Mark Zgarrick
Member
Username: Maz

Post Number: 167
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 67.104.202.98
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Geoff,

It's still young (needs a couple more days to properly carb, I don't do the rock-n-roll thing), but really really good. Roughly 50 IBUs with 5 additions (including FWH and dry hopping). I do love Amarillo!

Mark
 

Joakim Ruud
New Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 80.111.95.16
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, I'll let my ESB sit for a month before passing judgement, maybe it isn't ruined. Never had a young beer taste like this before, though :-)

When it comes to my APA, I'll use FWH for flavour and add a whole lot of hops at flame-out. I'll see what kind of results I get doing that, before I decide whether or not to start dry-hopping again :-)
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1774
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You could also try jury-rigging a hopback between your kettle and fermentor, or even just dumping a bunch of hops in at flameout, to get more hop aroma (though dry hopping is best IMHO).

Prost!
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 821
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 81.156.22.233
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joakim, was it an all grain beer or extract? Sometimes you can get a 'tang' from extract which could be what you are describing.
 

Joakim Ruud
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Username: Joques

Post Number: 14
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 80.111.95.16
Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hophead, I'll try hopping at flameout first. Rigging a hopback is a little out of my league for now.

Beerboy, all grain :o)
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
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Username: Matfink

Post Number: 822
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 81.156.22.233
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 09:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good lad!
 

Joakim Ruud
New Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.7.34
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 09:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm coming around to the notion that the infection (if it was an infection, and not something else - only time will tell on that one)wasn't caused by the dry hopping. Something else has been at work.

Perhaps the yeast was infected. It was a fairly old bottle of yeast, and I know that back then I wasn't as rigorous with sanitation as I am now. Also, the starter took a good three days before "waking up", and who knows what microbes may have gained a foothold in those three days.

Anyway, that's moot. I'm still gonna try my hand at FWH and a large late addition of aroma hops, just cause it's one less thing that can go wrong. If it works well and I'm happy with the results, I'll likely go down that road. Maybe try brewing a reference beer, but we'll see.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 3787
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 01:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeast contamination and wort infection are another matter entirely. Any microorganisms multiply just as quickly and in just about the same proportion as the yeast, and wort is a sugar-rich environment that favors lots of microscopic beasties. The alcohol and lower pH of beer are much less inviting.

Pay a lot of attention to sanitation (but not quite operating room sterilization) after boiling and prior to pitching. Before and after that, you can be a little more relaxed.

(Message edited by BillPierce on November 01, 2005)
 

Joakim Ruud
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Username: Joques

Post Number: 16
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.2.2
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, that has been my philosophy for the three years that I have been brewing. I have only ever once gotten an infection, and my sanitation has steadily improved with every batch. That's why I was so surprised by the off-flavours in this one.

I'm starting to blame the yeast. I have bottles of yeast culture that have been sitting in my fridge for over a year now, maybe time to stop being so cheap, and replace them...

The strange thing is, I could have sworn blind that when I tasted the beer on bottling day, it tasted fresh and clean. As clean as beer straight out of primary fermentation can taste, anyway. It's all relative, I guess.
 

Hallertauer
Intermediate Member
Username: Hallertauer

Post Number: 311
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 192.85.16.1
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

**Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH,**

I copied this from Geoff's post.

So why does Palmer say that only low alpha hops should be used? I just bittered a batch of 'dunkels' using ONLY a Chinook FWH addition. This way I'll really be able to see what FWH does.
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.174.22.28
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had the same question but instead of asking it I decided I don't like generalizations and assumptions. First off, how do you define low alpha? Using my hop chart (html) (and in excel) the average of all hop AA is around 8.5. So I guess one could say anything below 8.5 AA is low alpha. So that means, according to Palmer, the following are not to be used as FWH:

NORTHERN BREWER (GR)
PRIDE OF RINGWOOD (AU)
NORTHDOWN (UK)
BRAMLING CROSS (UK)
BREWER’S GOLD (US)
NORTHERN BREWER (US)
PIONEER (UK)
AMARILLO (US)
CENTENNIAL (US)
MARYNKA (PO)
TARGET (UK)
PILGRIM (UK)
HORIZON (US)
CHINOOK (US)
GALENA (US)
MAGNUM (US)
NUGGET (US)
SIMCOE (US)
MAGNUM (GR)
EROICA (UK)
BULLION (UK)
ADMIRAL (UK)
COLUMBUS (US)
ORGANIC PACIFIC GEM (NZ)
NEWPORT (US)
MILLENIUM (US)
WARRIOR (US)
PHOENIX (UK)

Looking at that list there are very few that I would use as flavor hops. But if you look at the list of hops remaining (below 8.5 AA) the list has many hop varieties that I would find good for flavor additions (well at least more than the > 8.5 AA list):

AHTANUM (US)
SAAZ (US)
CZECH SAAZ (US)
LUBLIN (PO)
LIBERTY (US)
FRENCH STRISSELSPALT
HERSBRUCKER (GR)
CRYSTAL (US)
GOLDING (US)
HALLERTAU (US)
TETTNANG (US)
HALLERTAU (GR)
SPALT (GR)
TETTNANG (GR)
FUGGLE (US)
FUGGLE (UK)
KENT GOLDING (UK)
WILLAMETTE (US)
SELECT (GR)
GLACIER (US)
CASCADE (US)
VANGUARD (US)
STYRIAN GOLDING
SANTIAM (US)
BREWER’S GOLD (GR)
TRADITION (GR)
PROGRESS (UK)
MOUNT HOOD (US)
CLUSTER (US)
PERLE (GR)
STERLING (US)
CHALLENGER (UK)
FIRST GOLD (UK)
STYRIAN GOLDINGS (SLOVENIAN)
ORGANIC HALLERTAU (NZ)
SUPER STYRIANS (SLOVENIAN)
PERLE (US)

So I guess there is some validity in Palmer's statement but I think he was making more of a generalization that the low AA hops are generally your flavor type hop.

That is my interpretation, I could be all Listermann on this one.
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5183
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree Hallertauer, high alpha hops work fine for FWH. I mean, it's all a matter of personal taste...some people would say no FWH at all based on their own preferences. Maybe I'll email John P. and ask him about the basis for his statement.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

michael atkins
Intermediate Member
Username: Mga

Post Number: 259
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 207.178.108.105
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 10:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just love this board.

Hallertauer (a lower alpha hop)(and poster), FWH's with Chinook (a higher alpha hop),and contradicts the statement -- **Only low alpha finishing hops should be used for FWH,**
Love This Hobby!

http://msnusers.com/micksbrewery
 

Hallertauer
Intermediate Member
Username: Hallertauer

Post Number: 312
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 192.85.16.1
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 10:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But just think about it guys. I ONLY used one hop addition 'chinook' for FWH. So I should be able to achieve bitterness AND flavor from ONE hop addition.

Makes it almost too easy eh?
 

Joakim Ruud
New Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 17
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.2.2
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 10:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hallertauer, from what I've read, you need to add a regular bittering hop addition on top of the FWH, since the FWH (due to inscrutable chemichal processes) doesn't contribute to bittering in the same way. At least that's the way I've read it.

Would be an interesting experiment, though :-)
 

Hallertauer
Intermediate Member
Username: Hallertauer

Post Number: 314
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 192.85.16.1
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 12:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes Joakim,

This is the first time I've done it. The beer has only been in the primary for a week so I can't give you any tasteing notes yet. It is indeed a kind of experiment but a big one, for me anyway as it's 50 liters of beer we are talking about.
 

Joakim Ruud
New Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 18
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.2.2
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 12:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Really curious about the results, please post them when they become available!

Is Chinook a typical citrus-y American hop, BTW?

I have an experimental beer in primary myself, a belgian golden ale with honey and bitter orange peel.

Might be great, might be a waste of good malt. Only time will tell :-)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 3794
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I seem to recall that someone here on the board brewed a beer with FWH hops only. IIRC, it had bittering, hop flavor and aroma, although it was a little weak in the aroma category.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 3749
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 71.37.187.137
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That would be me. I brewed an all-FWH Bohemian pilsner last January. 3 oz. of Saaz added FWH, nothing else. It came out very close to Budvar. Nice hop flavor, almost zero aroma, fairly low bitterness. Strangebrew calculated it to have 48 IBUs, but it tasted more like 30 or so to me.

The rest of the recipe, FWIW, was 9.5 # of Weyermann pils, 0.5 lbs. Weyermann Munich light, OG 1.052, Budvar yeast.
 

Joakim Ruud
New Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 19
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.2.2
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chumley, that's the thing, isn't it?

Beer hopped with FWH are supposed to, from what I've read, to have a significantly lower apparent bitterness than what scientific measurements show, so that if you want a good amount of bittering, you'd have to add bittering hops also.

For some inscrutable reason :-)

Now you got me all riled up to try brewing a Czeck pilsner, with triple decoction, FWH and a healthy dose of aroma Saaz :-)
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5185
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"So I should be able to achieve bitterness AND flavor from ONE hop addition. "...I've done it, it turned out great, and I'm gonna do it again on Sat. A big IPA, with only FWH and dry hopping.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1785
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not sure chumster uses as his bittering coefficient in strangebrew, but I have done many FWH-only beers, and putting it in as a 20min addition is pretty right on as far as apparent bitterness, regardless of low/high AA hops.

My $0.02 (I also think 100% chinook FWH will be very piney!).
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1020
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.174.22.28
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm Friday I was going to brew an IPA with only flavor hop additions (3 oz every five minutes for the last 30 minutes of the boil). I made this recipe once before and it was a big hit. It was calculated to be over 100 IBUs but had a very smooth bitterness. The only thing I didn't like about the "flavor hop only" technique was that the beer tasted very medicinal for the first few months and didn't come around until after 3 months of cold storage. I like this idea of going FWH only instead. Possibly boiling the hops will prevent the medicinal flavors when the beer is young.

This recipe will now be 24 ounces of hops (6oz each of Amarillo, Cascade, Mt. Hood and Centennial) added FWH and 3 oz Columbus dry hop!

(Message edited by avmech on November 02, 2005)
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1787
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
Posted on Wednesday, November 02, 2005 - 09:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know if I'd FWH with 24oz of hops! You may want to do 12oz FWH, then 4oz at 20,15,10 min.

You're a madman, how many gallons is this for??
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1021
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.174.22.28
Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is a 10 gallon batch with a 1.069 OG. The way I see it there is never enough hop flavor in an IPA so why not make all the hops flavor hops?
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Nick Zeigler
Member
Username: Ziggy

Post Number: 207
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 148.244.229.231
Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Geoff -

I'd disagree with Palmer on not using high Alpha hops for FWH -- Bullion and Eroica give GREAT flavors whe used in FWH... very mulberry-y (-ish?).
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1026
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.174.22.28
Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mulberry you say...hmmm...sounds like a new flavor hop to try in a stout.
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Kurt Weiser
Junior Member
Username: Kurtweiser

Post Number: 59
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 207.93.117.81
Posted on Thursday, November 03, 2005 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny,

Care to share that IPA recipe you plan to make Saturday?

I tend to trust you as an IPA formulator. Bugsy's Big Brewser is next on my list.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 3753
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 209.181.38.159
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 03:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good call asking for Denny's advice for an IPA recipe, Kurt. But I asked your brother, Bud, for a pils recipe and the beer turned out to be MULE PISS!!!!!

(okay, shoot me for a lameass pun, but its my birthday and I am half in the bag. So there.)
 

Connie
Advanced Member
Username: Connie

Post Number: 544
Registered: 10-2000
Posted From: 24.30.0.91
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 03:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

happy birthday, Chumley
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1028
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.32.251.167
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is a 24 oz. FWH addition:



And in the kettle (the ring toward the bottom is about 5 gallons):



"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1340
Registered: 03-2001
Posted From: 65.163.6.62
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

YES!
 

Chris Vejnovich
Intermediate Member
Username: Cjv85vmax

Post Number: 308
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 198.203.245.8
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Geoff, it looks as if you have already done the FWH thing. Have you ever mash hopped. I did an APA this way with Amirillo. I liked it very much. Smooth bitterness like you mention. I have also done the flavor hop only technique and I like that method too. It takes all the harshness away and seems to balance the beer a little more IMHO.
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1029
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.32.251.167
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 05:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have only mash hopped once and that was with several other flavor additions so I really can't comment on what it did for the beer. I was just throwing hops everywhere that day!
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1030
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.32.251.167
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As I collect the wort in the kettle and stir the hops around it feels like I'm doughing in! Man this is awesome!
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5188
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kurt, the grist for about a 1.070 55 IBU is 9 lb. pale, 3 lb. 10L Munich, 1 lb. crystal 60, 1 lb. Special Roast and 1/2 lb. wheat malt. Last time, I used a combo of Crystal and Horizon hops. This time, it's all Columbus. Both batches dry hopped with a couple oz. Cascade.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 1928
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.226
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 06:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did a prototype all mash hopped batch. I figure that I got about a fourth of the bitterness I would expect with boil additions. I can't recall any aroma and only a little flavor. Frankly, no magic. I have three bottles left. I will have to try one again later today.

Dan Listermann

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Guy C
Intermediate Member
Username: Ipaguy

Post Number: 349
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 24.6.136.251
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 06:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I like the add the hops everywhere approach. What better way to get good hop bitterness, flavor, and aroma than to add them at nearly every stage possible. Check out the Oggi's Ding Ding Double IPA recipe in the latest Zymurgy. The Tom Nickel article is good too. Now that is a West Coast Double IPA. Mash hops, FWH, 120 min. hops, 90 min. hops, 60 min. hops, 30 min. hops, hopback or mashback (using mash tun as hopback) hops, primary ferment hops (after most vigorous activity subsides), and secondary dryhops. Amarillo, Cascade, Centennial, Simcoe, Columbus, and Liberty are all used.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 1930
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.226
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We are tasting the 100% mash hopped beer now and find no hop aroma or flavor to speak of. It tastes a lot like a malt liquor frankly. Nice drinking beer if you like malty, alcoholic brews.

Dan Listermann

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Chris Vejnovich
Intermediate Member
Username: Cjv85vmax

Post Number: 309
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 198.203.245.8
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is very interesting Dan. I can't remember my exact recipe that I mash hopped. But it was an APA that I put probally 2-4 oz of mash hops in. I then decreased some of the other additions. It came out very tasty. How old is your Mash hopped beer? I have also FWH and done massive late addition hopped beers. I liked the one late addition beer very much. It is a Sterling Pils. I did 6oz of 6.5AA% at like 10 minutes. It has a very nice, smooth bitterness. The beer's only detractor is that I did not pitch enough yeast and so it has a distinct buttery flavor. I'm driking it all the same, but I would not enter it into a competition.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 1932
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.226
Posted on Friday, November 04, 2005 - 10:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I made the mash hopped beer this past summer. It has been sitting in the fridge for months. It is super clear at this point.

Frankly I doubt that I would ever do that again on a serious basis. Underhopping a beer and giving it not flavor or aroma hops would be about the same.

Dan Listermann

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Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1031
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.32.251.167
Posted on Saturday, November 05, 2005 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I tasted my FWH IPA when it was going into the fermenter and I was amazed! The 1.070 wort had so much hop flavor and bitterness that it tasted pretty balanced...the sweetness was barely detectable! This is going to be an incredible IPA.
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Joakim Ruud
Junior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 80.111.95.16
Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, I brewed my 25 litres of FWH-ed APA today. It went really well, 40 Cascade FWH, 50 g Challenger (didn't have any American bittering hops) for bittering and 40 g Cascade again at flameout. OG51, and 2 dl (about a half pint) of yeast slurry.

Only thing was, those darned hop leaves got stuck in the tap in the bottom of my brew kettle! So I had to quickly boil a bamboo skewer and poke out the gunk that was in there, stopping the flow. In the heat of the battle, a finger went in the cool wort

Huge no-no. I remain optimistic, though. I used a lot of yeast, all of it healthy and well aerated, so the yeast should hopefully win the battle. Hopefully.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1795
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Geoff, nice! Just did an 8oz FWH on sunday. I think I have hop envy... :-)

I used mt hood, then added centennial at 10 min; what were those, nice and green!
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 836
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 81.156.22.233
Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 05:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joakim, I wouldn't worry about a little finger, I've stuck my whole arm in to unblock a tap before to no ill effect.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1797
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But Beerboy, you don't know where that finger has been...

Agreed, no worries on a finger...
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1037
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 205.174.22.28
Posted on Tuesday, November 08, 2005 - 06:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Hophead. Fermentation took off rather quickly and is going very strong. I will pull another sample tonight and see if I am close to target FG and give another taste with a report.

"what were those, nice and green"

I believe they are this years harvest from both Freshops and Hops Direct.

They are 6oz each of Amarillo, Cascade, Mt. Hood and Centennial. I will be dry hopping with one more ounce of this combo and an ounce of Columbus, in the keg of course - don't want any of those aromas escaping.

(Message edited by avmech on November 08, 2005)
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."