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Message |
    
Jim O'Conner
Advanced Member
Username: Roguejim
Post Number: 603
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 216.239.160.71
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 07:06 pm: | 
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I want to use a 1/2-inch drill to power my JSP. How many amps? I use a very narrow roller gap on my mill.
Jim
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Brandon Dachel
Senior Member
Username: Brandon
Post Number: 1713
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 12.161.154.108
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 07:33 pm: |
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As many as you can get?
I use my 18v cordless milwaukee. It does a decent job at it. I completely burned up (as in smoke coming out) an old black and decker drill by trying to mill.
The cheap drills lack the torque required to get the mill going. For me, wheat is the killer. To do it again I'd recommend a quality corded drill with a 1/2" chuck. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2120
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 08:11 pm: |
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To my knowledge any half inch corded drill should be able to crank a JSP assuming that the hopper is not removed.
Dan
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Pete Mazurowski
Member
Username: Pete_maz
Post Number: 221
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 12.173.222.115
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 08:32 pm: |
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Not sure about 1/2" drills, but I use a 5 amp 3/8" corded Black & Decker on my JSP and it struggles. It simply cannot turn at low rpm. It'll kick ass at some obscenely high rpm rate, but if I try to slow down it dies. No smoke yet, but someday I predict there will be... |
Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 1859
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 08:39 pm: |
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I use a sears cordless 15.6v (3/8") and it works fine. Don't think I'd go with less than a 14.4v cordless, and make sure you have a backup battery too. I go through 2 batteries (nicad) for 20-25# of grain (nimh may be better). |
dhacker
New Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 207.230.140.240
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 08:42 pm: |
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Seems to me that for the price of burned up drills and cracked wrists, you could pay for two pulleys, a belt and a salvaged washing machine motor. Once those items are assembled, we could then engage in an endless debate on who had the best motor mount design!  |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2125
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 08:52 pm: |
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We have a Philmill I mounted in the store for use with dark malts. After about seven years, if I had to guess, we burned up a Craftsman 1/2". I think the brushes went out. I have a B & D on it now and it shows no sign of problems. No one , in 10.5 years of frequent daily use, has complained about it ever hurting them.
Dan
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Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 1861
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 09:03 pm: |
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Drills can be used for other things too, and don't have to be put together... I've used a drill for several years with no issues (LHBSs in area use drills too). I suppose I might try to jury rig a motor&pulley system if I had a 'brew room', but I do it all outside and a drill is very convenient, penny, penny. |
Connie
Advanced Member
Username: Connie
Post Number: 586
Registered: 10-2000
Posted From: 24.30.0.91
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 09:37 pm: |
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or something like this
 |
dhacker
New Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 207.230.140.240
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 09:42 pm: |
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Bingo, Connie!!! |
Pete Mazurowski
Member
Username: Pete_maz
Post Number: 222
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 12.173.222.115
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 09:53 pm: |
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Nice Connie. I don't know if I can swing the extra space in my garage for one though. Most of the spare space has already been taken up by my NEW CHEST FREEZER (thank you, thank you) and 135# of grain that I got for roughly 1/2 price (no really, you're being too kind).
If I built a motorized grain mill like that, I'd have to buy a new house. |
Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 1863
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
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that better be dme in those baggies...... 
I don't see any brown sugar bears either? |
Tom Fries
New Member
Username: Tfries
Post Number: 13
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 67.54.224.166
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
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I would also recommend that the drill have a keyed chuck. The keyless one I have always vibrates loose mid cruch. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2132
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.220.144
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 04:41 am: |
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Nice consideration, Tom. Mine have always been keyed, but I have been tempted to get a keyless.
Dan
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Scott Folsom
Member
Username: Sfolsom
Post Number: 115
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 68.100.11.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 04:50 am: |
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I have a Milwaukee, 1/2", keyed chuck, corded, 5.5 amp drill that works fantastic. I have to keep it about 1/2 throttle or it goes TOO fast...
and it will drill holes in stuff too... |
JD
Junior Member
Username: Tasbrewer
Post Number: 42
Registered: 12-2004
Posted From: 131.217.6.9
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 05:47 am: |
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Why not consider using a 12V or 24V windscreen wiper motor. They are cheap, geared motors that you can get from autowreckers and have a heap of torque. I used to use a 1/2" drill, while it didn't die it was pretty close-smoke coming out of the windings etc.
My wiper motor is powered by a 12V battery charger for a cheap power supply (note they draw around 4-5amps). My charger has a 10amp fuse and crushes my malt at around 70rpm for a beautiful crush. Yes it's a little slow but if you just plan for a little extra time it's no issue. I just set it going and keep topping up the hopper as I set up the brewery.
Better than a drill. Or look for Bodine motors. |
Mike Huss
Advanced Member
Username: Mikhu
Post Number: 938
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 24.123.94.154
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 02:55 pm: |
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Ironic this thread should show up now. I thought I scored big as we have a gearmotor here at work that ended up not being used so I could have gotten it for free. 3/4 hp, 7.5:1, 1750 motor rpm. However, it's 3-phase, so I'm outta luck after all. Oh well, the search continues. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2136
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 03:18 pm: |
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My brother and I like to go to industrial auctions. He bought a real nice bench grinder. We went to remove it so we flipped on its light and went through the breakers until we found the one that it was on. While unbolting it, some how the start switch was activated and it started to spin. Turns out it was 3-phase. I have lots of 3-phase here but it is not on many outlets so special wiring would have to be run. Screw it, I don't need it at the moment.
Dan
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Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 4035
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 04:03 pm: |
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Quite a bit of 208 volt three-phase equipment shows up on the industrial surplus market. You have to look carefully or you'll end up with something you can't use. |
Mark McAvoy
Junior Member
Username: Mcavoy
Post Number: 63
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 128.252.241.177
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 06:18 pm: |
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Can someone explain this three phase power stuff in layman's terms? |
Joshua Coman
Member
Username: Crazyjae
Post Number: 117
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 69.181.176.50
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 06:52 pm: |
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Can someone explain this three phase power stuff in layman's terms?
In laymans terms? It wont work with the power you got coming into your house...
It's a really simple concept, though, if you understand the basics of electricity. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2139
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 07:19 pm: |
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Wow, in layman's terms. . .
Single phase is what comes into your house and uses two wires. The charge goes from positive to negative 60 times a second.
3-phase uses three wires. Each wire goes from positive to negative 60 times a second but there is a 120 degree overlap. While one is reaching its highest positive voltage, another is coming out of negative and the third is just starting to go positive. . . I think something like that.
You may wonder why there is 3-phase. Single phase is not the easiest thing to use to turn motors. Various tricks must be used to start them and reversing can be complicated. I suppose that they are less efficient for all this as well.
3-phase requires no tricks to start or reverse. Just about all large motors, 3 HP or more generally, are 3-phase.
Dan
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Jim O'Conner
Advanced Member
Username: Roguejim
Post Number: 604
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 216.239.160.71
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 07:36 pm: |
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...back to the drills and amperage. It's my understanding that drills come in different amps. Is there a minimum recommended number of amps for crushing grain?
Jim
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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2141
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 07:58 pm: |
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I don't know about a minimum amperage for grain crushing, but I have never heard of a 1/2" drill that could not crush grain with almost any mill.
Dan
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Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 4042
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 08:00 pm: |
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It's more a matter of the starting torque. Dan, do you have any specs for your mills?
(Message edited by BillPierce on November 30, 2005) |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2142
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 08:19 pm: |
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Damn Bill, I used to know the torque requirements of both, but that has been years ago. Anymore, I would have to think abou tit a lot.
I tested the Phimill I in a three story stair well using a 24" pulley, some weights on a string and a bean bag chair. Had to put warning signs on the stair's doors. Try 1/30 hp at 60 rpm. I don't have a calculator nearby at the moment. Wait, that was before we improved the bearings.
You are right, start up torque is the key. I designed them around a 1/2" drill and wheat malt or carapils from a standing start.
Dan
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Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 1867
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 08:30 pm: |
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I'd say 2.5amp minimum, but I think you may be overthinking this, as most new drills are in the 3 to 5 amp range... If it can turn a screw into hardwood, it should be able to turn a roller to crush grain... |
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1176
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 08:53 pm: |
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I have a narrow gap on my Barley Crusher also. My drill is 3 amps. It will start with a hopper full of base malt, but won't with wheat malt. Aamof, wheat malt has to be trickled in. Hope that helps.
You can hang a pail off the handle of your mill, with the handle in the horizontal position, and the hopper full of grain. Start filling the pail with water until it "gives." Your pounds of water times the length of the handle (in inches) will give you your required starting torque in inch*lbs.
(Message edited by Ken75 on November 30, 2005) |
Dan Mourglea
Advanced Member
Username: Cataclysmbrewer
Post Number: 528
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 24.158.36.249
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 09:22 pm: |
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I got a 19volt Craftsman cordless (w extra battery and some other goodies) to run my Phillmill 2 for $119. They were on sale last week for $99. The drill is 1/2" and has 445in/lbs torque. Works like a charm and uses one battery for 25lb of grain (if it is freshly charged). |
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1177
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 09:34 pm: |
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You mean in*oz? |
Steve Funk
Member
Username: Tundra45
Post Number: 106
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 209.216.191.93
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 09:45 pm: |
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I too use a narrow gapped Barley Crusher powered by a 5.7 amp 1/2" drill. The drill has a keyless chuck and a three position screw-on handle. I used a short piece of 2" angle iron with a hole to secure the drill with a bolt into one of the mounting holes for the handle. It's a variable speed 0-500 rpm (I think) and has a thumb screw on the trigger to set the desired max rpm. Set at about half speed, it will go through wheat from a dead stop with no problems. I used to tighten the gap just for wheat but now crush it all on the tighter setting. No problems with the keyless chuck coming loose either. NAYYY
Steve
Stevenson, WA
Brew for art, brew for love of beer, brew for yourself, but by all means..... BREW
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Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 1868
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 10:27 pm: |
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As yet another barley crusher datapoint, I have it set on the narrowest gap, and have never had a problem starting on any malt. I'll have to look up the amps, but it's 15.6v 3/8" cordless.
Ken, I'm surprised at your apparent low torque?? |
don price
Advanced Member
Username: Donzoid
Post Number: 786
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 24.94.122.117
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 12:09 am: |
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Data point:
JSP Maltmill
3/8" B&D VSR drill - one of the cheap ones
hundreds of pound of grain crushed in 4 years...drill not smoked yet but it does get warm after 25 pounds. I'll buy a better drill once I smoke it. I mix the wheat malt with the barley to keep from stalling the drill at start-up.
One of my other 3 drills gets most off the use around the shop.
Don |
Sean Richens
Member
Username: Sean
Post Number: 212
Registered: 04-2001
Posted From: 142.161.26.213
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 12:14 am: |
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Just curious (since I use one), does anyone have amps for a Corona-type mill? I'm making 6 USG batches, so hand-cranking is just much-needed exercise, but it could be a scale-up issue. |
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1178
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 12:18 am: |
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"I mix the wheat malt with the barley to keep from stalling the drill at start-up.'
Geez, Don. I never thought of that. Fresh ingredients came today, including uncrushed wheat malt. I'll be trying the mix and mill thing soon. Thanks!
Ken |
Connie
Advanced Member
Username: Connie
Post Number: 588
Registered: 10-2000
Posted From: 24.30.0.91
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 12:52 am: |
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why not just start the drill running then add the grain to the hopper? |
Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:02 am: |
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that requires a high degree of coordination...
ken, you must be talkin' 'bout red wheat maybe?? |
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1179
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:11 am: |
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Well, the reason is probably my gap. I just measured it and it is .027 inch. Oy! If I pour the wheat malt in too quickly, it will grind to a halt.
I can't remember what kind of wheat it was, but I know it wasn't the red. Briess, but I'm trying Durst this time.
Edit: I meant to throw in that I'm kegging 5 gallons of lager as soon as I get out of this chair. Force carbing, and I'll be drinking a fresh keg within minutes. Yee haw!
Second edit: Ahhhhhhhh!!!
(Message edited by Ken75 on December 01, 2005)
(Message edited by Ken75 on December 01, 2005) |
Why1504
Intermediate Member
Username: Why1504
Post Number: 295
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 68.62.162.49
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:33 am: |
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When I went AG I ordered a plain Philmill with the drill adaptor. I have an old Craftsman 1/2 inch corded, keyed chuck. It hasn't missed a beat and except for the bottle as a bin I love it. As soon as I get the rest of my stuff built I am going to make a better bin but the drill will stay. It works fine. |
don price
Advanced Member
Username: Donzoid
Post Number: 787
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 24.94.122.117
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 02:22 am: |
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"why not just start the drill running then add the grain to the hopper?"
Because I don't have a third hand for my beer!
Actually the grain tends to ride between the spinning roller and the other one that just sits there. I have to roll one backwards a little to get them the bite the grain...then pull the trigger and grind away.
Don |
ELK
Senior Member
Username: Elkski
Post Number: 1229
Registered: 01-2003
Posted From: 67.177.25.240
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 01:19 pm: |
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Most folks have 2 phase power at home!!! its how you get 208-220 power for the range and dryer..by hooking up across both phases but for most outlets they are hooked up only across one phase...Why isn't the number across both phases 120+120=240 it has to do with the phase shift of hte sine wave. so while one phase is at 120 volts the other is at only cos(60)*120 which is why its really 208V and not 220.
correct me if I'm wrong. |
L Pr
New Member
Username: Thedane
Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 57.66.51.2
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 03:32 pm: |
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The Problem when using drills is that if you are using a normal drill at to low RPM, the culling is not working at it will .... Smoke.
If you like to run slow RPM's you need a gear motor like wipermotor from car, or a drill hammer, it runs quite slow, and has a ton og troque, but also weighs a lot.
And the reason for 3 phase is that its the lowest number of phase's that will give an even torque on the powerplants equipment. And I don't see any easy explanations for that, sorry.
TheDane
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Wayne Faris
New Member
Username: Wayne
Post Number: 12
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.189.233.183
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 03:43 pm: |
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My 20+ year old 3/8" Craftsman gave up the ghost after powering my PhilMill I for a couple batches. I went shopping for a replacement with this specific question on my mind. I found a corded 1/2" hammer drill rated at 6.3 amps for only $30. Used with the switch in the "drill" position, it works wonderfully, even when crushing wheat from a dead start.
Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company
http://www.lincolnlagers.com/
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Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 1871
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 03:46 pm: |
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How the heck did you get a hammer drill for $30?!
You must shop with Connie... |
dhacker
New Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 207.230.140.240
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 04:21 pm: |
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Elk,
I'm not completely sure of you're logic on the 120/ 240 thing. Common household electrical service is referred to as single phase 240/ 120. The transformer on the pole typically steps the voltage down from 7200 to 240 volts. The secondary is center tapped. (three connection points, the middle being neutral) Either side of the secondary to neutral will be half, or close to it of the total. I suspect 99 percent of the homes in the US have anywhere from 234 to 244 volts across both legs of the secondary and 117 to 122 either leg to neutral. In some areas, neutral and ground are bonded together. Where does 208 come from?? That is a typical voltage one can expect between legs when using a three phase "Wye" configuration . . . and then there's Delta and all its variants . . but don't get me started! |
Ric Heinz
Intermediate Member
Username: Rheinz
Post Number: 321
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 64.154.26.251
| | Posted on Thursday, December 01, 2005 - 04:50 pm: |
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I believe dhacker is correct. 208 and also 277 VAC are both common voltages used in commercial buildings and stem from 3 phase 480 VAC electrical systems (Y and Delta?). The two 120 VAC "busses" in your household electrical "box" are 180 degrees out of phase due to the center tap transformer, which when combined will give you a single 240 VAC wave.
Correctly if I'm wrong as I need to know more about this stuff.
(Message edited by rheinz on December 01, 2005)
Ric
Flatfender Brewing, NW Houston
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ELK
Senior Member
Username: Elkski
Post Number: 1234
Registered: 01-2003
Posted From: 67.177.25.240
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 01:27 pm: |
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I do remember the y and delta configurations. but its been a long time and to many beers since I went to sckool... I am sure you guys are correct.. |
Fred S
New Member
Username: Beerrat
Post Number: 7
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.118.139.229
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:59 pm: |
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"How the heck did you get a hammer drill for $30?! "
Seconded. What brand/where did you get your drill Wayne (or was it used/pawned or something)? I could really use one myself. |
don price
Advanced Member
Username: Donzoid
Post Number: 789
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 24.94.123.90
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 05:21 pm: |
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Here's one source for a budget hammerdrill.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=45338
Certainly not a top of the line tool but probably good enough for nost households.
Don |
Brews and Views Archive 2005 
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