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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2164
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 09:59 pm: | 
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A fellow walked into my shop today and mentioned that he once spoke to my local brew club, the Bloatarians, back in the 90's. He was brewing at a local brewpub at the time but he had spent some time in Scotland brewing at Traquair House. I recall that meeting very well. He recently was brewing at Rogue but now he is in charge of the alcohol at a local chain of high class pizza joints. His name is John Kathman. Cool guy. Bought a brewing kit for his brother and some raspberry flavoring to fix a goldenrod mead which is not doing well.
I asked him about the obvious and he said that there is no caramelization of the wort in Traquair House. He said that the distinctive flavor came from the oak in the fermenters. It was some extinct giant Russian oak species. The grain bill consisted of three different malts.
He said that he might come to our annual Holiday Party tomorrow night and he would look up some of his notes from Scotland and Rouge.
Interestingly he now lives on the road that my great-great-great grandfather had a farm on back in the 1860's - only a couple of miles from where I grew up.
I think we will pick his brain a bit!
Dan
(Message edited by listermann on December 03, 2005)
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Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1589
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:27 pm: |
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hmmm,
The caramelization that occurs at Traquair House is from an extremely long boil and the fact that it is boiled in a large copper vessel.
-Scott
Edited to fix typos
(Message edited by skotrat on December 03, 2005) |
Ozroorat
New Member
Username: Ozroorat
Post Number: 16
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 24.230.141.235
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:41 pm: |
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Oak contributes as much to caramelization as Wallabe spit contributes to head retention mate. |
Graham Cox
Intermediate Member
Username: T2driver
Post Number: 310
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.248.92
| | Posted on Friday, December 02, 2005 - 11:42 pm: |
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Speaking of meeting interesting brewers, Dan, I met somebody from your neck of the woods yesterday at Max Lagers in downtown Atlanta: One Markus Lohner, brewmaster at your Hofbrauhaus and president of BrauKon in Deutschland. I learned a lot from him that confirmed (or denied) many things I have read about German brewing techniques, ingredients, etc.
(/hijack) |
Bob BB (BAB's)
Junior Member
Username: B_a_brewer_2
Post Number: 65
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 66.177.104.152
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 12:41 am: |
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Dan, How far down did you boil the first gallon? I just tapped a keg that was brewed last Dec. 18th. It is amazing. The recipe on that "one site" is a dead ringer. One of the best brews to date. I did make sure I boiled the gallon down to a pint. Was like extract when it was all said and done, and had to make sure to continually stir the pot.
There is several modifications to procedures we as Homebrewers do to duplicate the super long boils done in different vessels. We also use different ways to ferment, additions,... to try and get close.
I would say try it again, if you did try it, and make sure to reduce, and boil long. This is a great beer and I am getting ready to brew it again.
Bob |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2166
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.220.144
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 05:04 am: |
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Don't know Scott, when I mentioned carmalization, he looked at me funny. Don't know about extended boils, but IIRC ( it has been maybe 15 years that we last heard him at our meetings) he said something to the effect that he was only the third or so brewer at Traquair House in 350 years. Between Traquair House and Rogue, this guy needs his brains picked, don't you think Scott, . . or don't you?
Ozroorat, congratulations on your 16th post! After you work on your stuff a bit, I am sure that you can fit in here somewhere, somehow.
Dan
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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2167
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.220.144
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 05:18 am: |
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Graham, I have never met him, but I know Tim Ratstedder an assistant and holder of seven GABF metals. Frankly I have been less than enthused about the Hofbrauhaus' beers. Early on there was some extreme undependibility ( bad beer)there. Lately I find the beers there less than inspiring.
Tim design and brewed the bock they plan to enter into the World Beer Competition ( or something like that ) he bought the speciality malts from us, as if that could impress anybody here. (Ho, Hum . . . )
I must say that the Hofbrauhaus is a great building and not to be missed when in Cincy. I highly recommend their Rubian. It is so big that they sell halves.
Bob, "that one site" - har har, right! Gotta love it, don't cha?
Dan
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Mike
Member
Username: Macker
Post Number: 190
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 67.161.97.0
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 06:55 am: |
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Dan, how does the math pencil out for the 3 brewers in 350 years? Traquair has been re-opened since 1965, and if memory serves me, it closed sometime in the 1820s. The first brewer in 1965 died in 1990. Seems difficult to have had only three brewers since 1755 even with the long period it was closed. |
brendar buhl
New Member
Username: Brendar_buhl
Post Number: 9
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.99.185.50
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 01:48 pm: |
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Perhaps I am way out of line considering my shamefully low number of posts, but I've never read anything about Oak contributing to caramelization either. |
Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy
Post Number: 1084
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.225.248.227
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 02:06 pm: |
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I wouldn't know about an extinct giant Russian oak species contributing to carmalization flavors either, I've never done that. |
Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1590
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 02:39 pm: |
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Thecaramelization comes from the kettles and is a process called 'kettle caramelization'
Traquair boils their House Ale for 4-6 hours in a large copper boiler.
Quite a bit of caramelization happens in that time.
Where did I get the caramelization boil down idea you wonder???
I got that practice from a guy named Ian Cameron who has been the brewer at Traquair House since 1976 and head brewer there since 1990 when Peter Maxwell Stuart passed away.
Ian Cameron has an assist. brewer by the name of Frank Smith.
With the exception of David Geary who was mentored at Traquair Houses brewery I do not know of any other brewers there or that have brewed there.
There is quite a bit of caramelization in the Traquair House Ale.
Dan... This appears to be the most obvious TROLL that you have ever posted.
The Oak in question is used for the fermenters and has been since the 16th century. It is Russian Memel Oak.
Oak does not add caramelization/candy sugars to beer to the best of my knowledge.
-Scott
Edited to fix typos
(Message edited by skotrat on December 03, 2005) |
Mike
Member
Username: Macker
Post Number: 191
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 67.161.97.0
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 03:05 pm: |
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Brendar, number of posts does not equate in any way to quality....keep on posting! |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2168
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 03:16 pm: |
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Scott, I only know what this guy has told me. Have fun with your "troll" charge. Oh wait a minute, Scott, "TROLL" is always uppercase in your world, isn't it? How soon I forget. Can I get a "hmmm" in there?
He did not say that any caramel flavor came from the oak, but rather that the distinctive flavor of the brew did.
Mike, your are back! Have I been "run off Scott's site or have I been "kicked off?" The distinction seems to important to you.
He did not mention the number of brewers yesterday. As I said, it was my own memory from a brew club meeting many years ago.
I hope he turns up at our holiday party tonight, he was very interested. His brains will be picked bare there.
We will see what we will see.
Dan
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tranquil_liza
Intermediate Member
Username: Tranquil_liza
Post Number: 270
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 69.245.106.189
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 09:03 pm: |
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oh great....another fight brewing instead of beer. |
Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1596
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 09:36 pm: |
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Settle down Liza...
Seems like more a discussion about beer.
Please have a beer and calm down |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2176
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 10:23 pm: |
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According to Traquair's site, http://www.traquair.co.uk/brewcycle.html, the beer is only boiled two hours.
Dan
(Message edited by listermann on December 03, 2005)
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Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1597
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 10:44 pm: |
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The Jacobite and the Bear Ale are boiled for 1.5-2 hours...
The House Ale (wee heavy) is boiled for 4-6 hours... |
Mike
Member
Username: Macker
Post Number: 192
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 67.161.97.0
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
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*Wort Boiling
The wort is gently boiled for over two hours in the open topped Copper. During the boil the hops are added to give aroma and a bitter flavour.*
from the Traquiar website
It might seem minor, but there is a difference between "only two hours" and "over two hours". To me, the latter seems to state that it is two hours plus some amount. |
Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1598
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
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Mike Mike Mike...
Please!!!
Leave logic out of the conversation! |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2177
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 11:05 pm: |
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LOL!
Dan
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Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1599
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 11:09 pm: |
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You know...
This comic very much applies to Listermanns posts on this thread also, so I will repeat it for Lizas Ulcers sake...
-Scott |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2178
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.220.144
| | Posted on Saturday, December 03, 2005 - 11:43 pm: |
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Thanks Scott, that is still funny!
Dan
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robert rulmyr
Advanced Member
Username: Wacobob
Post Number: 692
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 65.150.17.72
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 12:06 pm: |
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Where can we get cramp bark? Is it Russian? |
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1190
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 02:02 pm: |
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Right beside the Kralpin, I imagine. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2182
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.220.144
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 04:50 pm: |
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John Kathman didn't show up at our party last night so some questions will have to wait until he drops in again. He did seem more than interested in the club!
Dan
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MacGregor Outkast
Junior Member
Username: Macgregor
Post Number: 50
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 24.249.73.221
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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Soon Dan will be visited by aliens promising to end world hunger in exchange for only a few pounds of Crystal 120L |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2186
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.37
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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Mac, what an interesting sense of humor. Please continue. Don't let anyone discourage you. We want to see more of your thoughts. It is very enlightening.
Dan
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brendar buhl
New Member
Username: Brendar_buhl
Post Number: 10
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 216.99.185.50
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 01:41 pm: |
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Perhaps he didn't show up because he's been reading this thread. |
Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1605
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Monday, December 05, 2005 - 01:52 pm: |
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Now that would be a hoot Brendar |
Brews and Views Archive 2005 
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