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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2005 * Archive through December 10, 2005 * Household Hot Water Heater for Sparge H2O < Previous Next >

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Greg Nolan
Member
Username: Greg

Post Number: 139
Registered: 06-2001
Posted From: 4.228.204.228
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am curious if anyone uses an electric or a gas hotwater heater for normal household use to start their brewing session. I raised the temp of my tank and it gets up to 140. By filtering the water straight from the hotwater tank I could start a step mash at this temp. This would eliminate me heating cold water and save propane and time. Icould be mashing 30-50 minutes sooner. I have often wondered if I couldn't get a small hot water heater from Lowes and alter the thermostat some how so it would just heat the water to 170 so I could totally eliminate the step of heating mash/sparge water before I start brewing. If I could set this up in my garage where I brew that would be cool. I suppose the pressure valve may need replaced as well. OK guys let the ideas fly. I am all eyes.
I am drunk therfore I am.
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1632
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey now,

I do not use electric or gas but I do use my furnace and hot water res. to serve up strike and sparge water.

When I had to have my furnace replaced a few years back I specifially went out of my way to make this happen.

I have a pretty over powered BURNHAM furnace (6 zones) that supplies Hot Water on demand and also has a 60 gallon res. (I have 4 daughters).

I can crank up my hot water on brew days up to 174f.

I have been very happy knowing that I do not have to wait for strike water any longer.

Last year when we had an addition put onto the house I actually slipped the plumber $50 to have him run not only cold water to the outside but a hot water line too...

So in the spring, summer and fall I can just tap the hot water right outside.

I will tell you that this setup does not SUCK!

I have an artesian well. I am not on city or municipal water. I also drain the hot water tank about every 10 months to clean out any crap that may be in there.

-Scott
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4108
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The problem is that the pressure/temperature relief valve can blow at the higher temperature. There are a number of safety reasons (burns are only one) why hot water heaters are designed to operated below 150 F. You could remove the relief valve and replace the temperature controller (much easier with an electric heater), but you still have a pressurized vessel. I once searched for a valve rated at a higher temperature and pressure but could not find one. I have to say that a non-pressurized HLT is much safer and far more practical.
 

Tony Legge
Member
Username: Boo_boo

Post Number: 106
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 142.162.53.243
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well Scott that sounds like the cats meow. You must have a indirect water heater supplied by circulating hot water from your furnace to your heater reserve tank. Your system, sans the 60 gallon reserve, is common here also. Most here just run the hot water direct from the coil to whatever tap it is hooked up to. Oil getting expensive where you are? Just starting to go down a bit here.
 

John Baer
Member
Username: Beerman

Post Number: 116
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 141.158.20.2
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott,
Thanks for the info, I've been debating whether to do something similar. I still have one of those 1930 model five foot asbestos wrapped monsters in the basement that generates hot water on demand. I can actually get hot water of up to about 185 degrees out of the tap. I may go that route now that the tempature is plumenting here in RI.

JB
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1633
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi Bill,

The relief/safety valve on my res. tank is rated at 150psi up to 210f

It is not a traditional hot water heater but a reserve tank that has a heat exchanger that comes off the furnace.

Tony, I am in New Hampshire. Heating oil has been slowly coming down but now with crude back over $60 we will see waht happens.

-Scott
 

Dave Bossie
Member
Username: Boss_brew

Post Number: 163
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 71.134.235.110
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe that Charcoal filters don't work with hot water. If this true, you might want to filter before the heater.
Dave
 

The Gimp
Junior Member
Username: Gimp

Post Number: 61
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.5.44.21
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The standard for the pop-off valve is as Skot stated. However, there is another issue. That is the water pressure at the tank. I use a regulator to set my house water pressure at 35psi.

My wife had a problem at ther old house with the pop-off valve letting go, and I replaced it thinking it was bad. It turned out that her pressure regulator had gone bad. The city water pressure at her house was 130psi average, and I suspect that there were surges that put it above 150psi.

In 25 years I have seen three pressure regulators go bad (in three different houses).
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1635
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 03:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gimp,

Like I said... I have an artesian well and not city/muni water. Like you I have a pressure gauge on the water coming into my house. I have that set to 40psi.

130psi? Damn!

Showers must leave marks.

-Scott
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2210
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.195
Posted on Thursday, December 08, 2005 - 11:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use a modified electric water heater for brewing. It is a low 50 gallon. If I had it to do over, I would use a tall one because of temperature stratification. I operate it at 180 F with two relief valves. To get it this high, you need to do a few things. The thermostats are designed to only provide power to one or the other. The top one controls this IIRC. To get by the 150 limit, just clip off a plastic stop.

To get both to come on at once ( you may not need this, but I had the current to do it), you replace the lower thermostat with a replacement upper one.

To have the full 50 gallons at 180, I added a cheap circulating pump from McMaster-Carr that pumps from bottom to top. The only problem with this is I sometimes forget to shut the valve in that line off and some cold water gets blended in to the hot.

I brew in 46.5 barrel lengths, A smaller set up might not require the pump or modification of the lower thermostat beyond stop removal. Again, I wish I would have gone with a tall version.

I added a second pressure relief valve as a safety feature. The odds of both failing together are far less than a single one.

I charcoal filter the incoming water.

This heater is only used for brewing. It connects to the building's plumbing with a hose and uses a plug for power. It is not part of the building's plumbing or power system.

To use it, I just flip the switch on the night before or, if I forget, do it about 90 minutes before starting the mash. The beauty is that the water pressure acts as a strike and sparge water pump.

Dan

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Joe Rovito
Member
Username: Joez8

Post Number: 176
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 68.84.35.203
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 01:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have taken some cooking classes, and been told repeatedly never to use hot TAP water for cooking. Always run the cold for 20-30 seconds to flush the pipes, then heat up cold water on the stove.

Something to do with hot water in contact for long periods of time w/ the copper plumbing and fixtures and solder, and subsequently leaching out all kinds of nasties.

Obviously, if you are dedicating a heater, you can put hose or stainless on the outlet, or otherwise control the downstream elements in contact with your hot water. And scrupulously drain/clean your heater. Come to think of it, an electrified HLT ona timer/controller may be the best solution after all.

Links:
http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/water/colder.htm
http://www.moncton.org/search/english/CITYHALL/water/waterfacts.pdf
http://www.pgworks.com/documents/ggn6-04.pdf
and the best ...
http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=Never%20drink%20or%20cook%20with%20hot%20ta p%20water

or just google "hot tap water cooking"

(Message edited by joez8 on December 09, 2005)
 

Greg Nolan
Member
Username: Greg

Post Number: 140
Registered: 06-2001
Posted From: 207.69.139.7
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 03:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was actually thinking on the lines of something very similar to Dan's. I would like to put an extra tank in my garage. I have the utility sink so water is no problem and I have 220v power and fuse box in garage. I guess I just need to look for a water heater with the plastic stop on the thermostat. Dan or anyone else, do you know if the plastic stop is common or on all electric HW heaters? This is really the way I would like to go.
I am drunk therfore I am.
 

Greg Nolan
Member
Username: Greg

Post Number: 141
Registered: 06-2001
Posted From: 207.69.139.7
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 03:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan did you replace the pressure relief valve with one rated for a higher pressure/temp? Where would someone find a relief valve rated higher?
I am drunk therfore I am.
 

Greg Nolan
Member
Username: Greg

Post Number: 142
Registered: 06-2001
Posted From: 207.69.139.7
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 03:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have heard of people installing boilers for there hot water space heating. Do these operate at a higher temp? Can you get smaller ones 15-50 gallons? I know nothing about boilers.
I am drunk therfore I am.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2211
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.220.144
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 04:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greg, I imagine they all have the same plastic stop. Just go to your local Big Box and look at the replacement thermostats. That is where I got the second lower thermostat ( or was it upper?) Anyway you will see it. I just clipped it off with a wire cutter.

The relief valves are standard. I used one that came with the heater and bought the other. One is mounted in the side and the other is mounted from the top. I put a check valve after the charcoal filter. This causes the relief valves to weep a little every time I heat it up. If one or the other doesn't, I know that it is stuck. The odds of both getting stuck and one of the thermostats not cutting out is very small.

Dan

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Brandon Dachel
Senior Member
Username: Brandon

Post Number: 1726
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 12.161.154.108
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 05:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> (I have 4 daughters).

I no longer wonder about the surliness.
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1371
Registered: 03-2001
Posted From: 65.163.6.62
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quite.
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1642
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 08:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

pray for me Brandon...

I also have my 50 year old sister who has MS living with us...

euuuuboy
 

Mark Tigges
Intermediate Member
Username: Mtigges

Post Number: 390
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 66.38.134.9
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 01:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did something very simple to get hot water outside. Turned off the water to the house, drained, cut through the feed to the kitchen sink, sweat in joints and crossover, then run through the wall to two garden taps. 2 hours ... done. Oh, and I installed shutoffs on the inside so freezing doesn't f everything up. I have to agree with Scott, hot water outside for brewing is very nice.
 

Joe Williams
Member
Username: Joewilliams

Post Number: 105
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 144.104.30.6
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 02:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The problem with using hot tap water in relation to lead poisoning is only relevant if any portion of your hot water plumbing was installed before the mid 80's. That's when lead solder was banned for residential construction. The lead solder is easier to work with but it is a health risk.
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1643
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All my pipes are new...

My Unit (Uh Huh Huh Uh Huh Huh Uh Huh Huh) was made for on demand service...

I know my water source and what is and what is not in it.

If you have the chance to go my route then it is a mighty fine route indeed
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2214
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.195
Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My water heater was purchased new and is only used for brewing. There should be minimal sludge build up considering that the hours on it are a tiny fraction of what a domestic heater has on it.

Speaking of exterior hot water supply, we had both hot and cold water run to our new addition's second floor porch for the hot tub. I have never used the cold water tap.

Dan

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