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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through January 09, 2006 * Adding whiskey or bourbon.... < Previous Next >

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don price
Advanced Member
Username: Donzoid

Post Number: 814
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 24.94.123.141
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 02:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What can the collective tell me about adding whiskey or bourbon instead of aging in oak barrels? Yes, I've started my google search...

Data points from actual experience greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Don
 

dhacker
Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 107
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 208.63.189.19
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

. . See also "Boiler Maker" . .

Seriously, the 'Scaldis Prestige' thread got me wondering the same thing.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4262
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 03:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Take a look at this thread from the archives: http://hbd.org/discus/messages/26895/33326.html
 

don price
Advanced Member
Username: Donzoid

Post Number: 815
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 24.94.123.141
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill,

I remember the thread. I guess what I'm asking is whether or not anyone has really experimented with adding bourbon directly and skipping the oak chips completely. A few folks have hinted at having tried it but no one seems to come right out and say "5% Jim Beam in a 10% RIS is OK" or something like that.

Looking for a silver bullet...will probably end up with soaked oak chips instead.

Don
 

Paul Edwards
Advanced Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 890
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.64.228
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 04:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Try adding a small amount of bourbon to a 12 ounce glass of the beer or a commercial beer that's similar. maybe 1/4 or 1/2 teaspoon. If it's not a strong enough flavor increase it in small amounts until you get it where you want.

Then extrapolate to your batch size.

One teaspoon is 1/6 of a fluid ounce, BTW.
 

don price
Advanced Member
Username: Donzoid

Post Number: 816
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 24.94.123.141
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 04:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like an experiment for the homebrew club meeting. Now I know what to do with all those 3 ml syringes...

In fact, I now have a mission for this evening....a trip to the beer store and the last 2 shots in a JD bottle and I'm good to go.

Thanks,

Don

(Message edited by donzoid on December 31, 2005)
 

Tom Meier
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdawg96

Post Number: 330
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.156.19.106
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The higher alcohols make it taste odd once you get enough to taste, and overpower. I personally think it is better to get the flavor of the wood without the whiskey type alcohols. Just one opinion.

One idea you might try is Bourbon Barrel Char (crystallized oak sugar) over using plain whiskey. You might get them from here if he still sells them:
Bob Capshew
rcapshew at epowerc.net
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4266
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Saturday, December 31, 2005 - 09:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny Conn adds the bourbon directly to his bourbon vanilla imperial porter and claims it works very well. I believe he used the method Paul suggests above (extrapolating from the amount added to a glass to achieve the right flavor). I have not had the pleasure of trying this beer.
 

dhacker
Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 110
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 208.63.189.19
Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 02:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are there any Coopers on this board? I read an article a couple of months ago about the barrel builders . . quite fascinating. The article talked about the various degrees of charring done to the wood based on the specs of the customer, whether a distiller or vintner. Since I have about 15 acres of white oak, I thought I might make my own charred oak chips. I'd like to know just how much toasting to do on the aged wood to achieve appropriate results.
 

Why1504
Intermediate Member
Username: Why1504

Post Number: 305
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 68.62.162.49
Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 03:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What makes Denny's recipe work is the mix of the vanilla with the bourbon. The reason Denny suggests you add bourbon to taste instead of adding a cup or a quart of Beam is the vanilla is inconsistent based on the quality of the beans. The vanilla and bourbon need to be balanced. One other thing Jack Daniels, George Dickel (I like to cook with TN sour mash whiskey not KY bourbon which I like to drink), Beam, Bullitt, Old Forester, Bookers, Bakers, Knob Creek, etc. add different flavors, some have more oak, more smoke and more kick.

Dhacker- @ Jack Daniels they burn the oak about 1/4 to 1/2 inch with a propane weed burner.
 

Fred Bonjour
Junior Member
Username: Bonjour

Post Number: 57
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.14.60.55
Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 03:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did a bit of both on a Barley Wine (HM wood aged at Michigan State Fair) It took far more Bourbon than I ever thought, a total of about a pint in a 5 gal batch.

lil' bit Kentucky Barleywine
Wood Aged Beer


Type: All Grain
Date: 10/18/2003
Batch Size: 4.30 gal
Brewer: Fred Bonjour
Boil Size: 6.38 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 120 min Equipment: Brew Pot (30 Qt) and Igloo Cooler (10 Gal)
Taste Rating(out of 50): 39.0 Brewhouse Efficiency: 56.0
Taste Notes: Honorable Mention Wood Conditioned Beers Michigan State Fair 2005
Club COC 1st Place award winner Sept 2004

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
18 lbs Brewers Malt 2-Row (Briess) (1.8 SRM) Grain 69.6 %
2 lbs 8.0 oz Caramel Malt - 20L (Briess) (20.0 SRM) Grain 9.7 %
2 lbs 4.0 oz Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM) Grain 8.7 %
2 lbs Munich 10L Organic (Briess) (10.0 SRM) Grain 7.7 %
1 lbs Wheat - White Malt (Briess) (2.3 SRM) Grain 3.9 %
2.0 oz Chocolate (Briess) (350.0 SRM) Grain 0.5 %
2.50 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.75%] (60 min) Hops 35.5 IBU
2.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.75%] (15 min) Hops 14.1 IBU
1.00 oz Goldings, East Kent [4.75%] (0 min) (Aroma Hop-Steep) Hops -
1 Pkgs American Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1272) [Starter 4 oz] Yeast-Ale



Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1.123 SG
Measured Original Gravity: 1.124 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.029 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.043 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 12.3 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 10.7 %
Bitterness: 49.5 IBU Calories: 608 cal/pint
Est Color: 17.2 SRM Color: Color


Mash Profile

Mash Name: Infusion 158 Total Grain Weight: 25.88 lb
Sparge Water: 3.27 gal Grain Temperature: 72.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F TunTemperature: 72.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: FALSE Mash PH: 5.4 PH

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash Add 25.87 qt of water at 173.7 F 158.0 F 90 min



Mash Notes:
Carbonation and Storage

Carbonation Type: Corn Sugar Volumes of CO2: 2.4
Pressure/Weight: 3.2 oz Carbonation Used: -
Keg/Bottling Temperature: 60.0 F Age for: 28.0 days
Storage Temperature: 52.0 F

Notes

Initial SG from mash was 1.091 corrected. Much lower than I expected. Boiled to correct.
1 Qt. Yeast Slurry from RMBC (WYEAST 1272 American Ale II
Day 8 (10/26) Racked to glass secondary SG 1.046 corrected 10.41ABV added 1/2 cup Burbon Oak chips (soaked in Makers Mark 5 weeks (since 9/22) (sinks to bottom)
(11/12) racked again (1 in of trub) added 1/2 cup of Bourbon Oak chips (soaked in Makers Mark 7 weeks old (since 9/22) Added 1 oz Bourbon/gal. Bourbon soaking in oak since 9/22 (5 months) to add a touch more bourbon flavor. This will add .35%abv
2/29 bottled added yeast (1214) and 4oz oak conditioned Bourbon.

10/26/03 a strong beer, fairly neutral in flavor (prior to adding oak) 10/27 (hint of KY present)
11/12/03 SG 1.043 corrected 10.92ABV , 7 wks Needs to mature and round out. not enough KY, sank to bottom and was covered, added 1/2 cup more.

Using Makers Mark Bourbon soaked American Light Toast Oak (Started 9/22/03)
http://beerdujour.com/AwardWinningRecipes.htm
 

Why1504
Intermediate Member
Username: Why1504

Post Number: 306
Registered: 10-2004
Posted From: 68.62.162.49
Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fred,
First, I am from the south and have drank my fare share of Sour Mash, Bourbon, and even a bit of moonshine. I also cook more than I brew. These experiences effect how I brew. I have a couple of questions:

How long did you age this prior to sampling?

I am not surprised you had to add quite a bit of Makers. I find Makers Mark to be a very smooth Bourbon (better for drinking). I find (in cooking anyway) a less expensive whiskey results in more whiskey flavor.

I suspect this was quite good with the mild bourbon coupled with a sweet barley wine (high FG). Did you intend for the FG to come in that high in the end?

And last, what did the bourbon do as the beer aged? I have brewed Denny's BVIP once and as she aged the vanilla and bourbon mellowed considerably. Did you experience this? I am curious as to whether my experience was based on the my perception of the mellowing based on way the vanilla mellowed (it mellowed more than the bourbon But I thought they both mellowed) or both.

BTW your recipe looks really good.
 

Fred Bonjour
Junior Member
Username: Bonjour

Post Number: 58
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 69.14.60.55
Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This was my first really big beer and I like the big malty beers I have tried. I knew the high mash would kick that up but I did not realize the impact of a 158F mash. I would say I was shooting for the low to mid 1.030's as a FG. IMHO the beer was awesome in march of '04 5-6 months and peaked at 1-1.5 years. The Bourbon mellowed and diminished it's impact somewhat, but I wanted a subtle impact.

Now it is going downhill fast, but that is because I have only 1 bottle left.

I will definately brew this again, likely with a lower FG (1.030 target)
http://beerdujour.com/AwardWinningRecipes.htm
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4278
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're entirely correct, Fred, that the high saccharification temperature contributed to the low attenuation. In general, high gravity beers should be converted at a lower temperature to encourage fermentability. Using some sugar in the recipe is another method. And of course high original gravitites demand high pitching rates and extensive aeration.

It sounds like quite a beer, though.
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 2057
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 08:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I used Denny's taste adn scale up method for the BVIP and came up using 12 oz. of Jim Beam for 5 gal. At first the Beam is noticable but gradually melds with the vanilla flavor. This time I also added some toasted oak chips. Not sure if that really adds anything as the flavor is already quite complex.
 

Nick Zeigler
Member
Username: Ziggy

Post Number: 227
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 148.244.229.231
Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don -

I've tried adding just scotch to get the oakey flavors, but as others have pointed out, you have to use a boatload. I tried it with Laphroaig and Lagavulin (two of the smokiest & oakiest scotches I know) and it wasn't worth it. For some reason the 11% RIS brought out the sourness of the scotch more than the smokiness or oakiness.

I soaked 3 oz of dark toasted oak chips in a bottle of Booker's Bourbon for three weeks and then added it to an Imperial stout and aged it for four months. It came out pretty good, but I concur with the notion that you need to let the flavors meld together and find a complementary flavor beyond the bourbon. Vanilla works and I imagine that Chocolate or Cinnamon would also work well.
 

Tom
Member
Username: Benchbrew

Post Number: 105
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.103.183.236
Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 08:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I made a batch of Denny's BVIP and added the bourbon to oak chips and soaked it for a month. One of the best beers I ever brewed. In fact, gonna do it again soon.