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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through February 27, 2006 * Lager Styles using Ale yeast < Previous Next >

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Scott Morales
Junior Member
Username: Smutty

Post Number: 81
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 208.252.62.130
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 09:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,
I'd like to do some lager styles, but use Ale yeast (no refrigeration available for lagering). I know this isn't an original idea, but I was hoping to get some thoughts on the matter. The styles that I'm considering are Helles, Octoberfest and a Czech Pilsner (a la Budvar). Does anyone have any thoughts tips on this approach? Do I still need to secondary and/or pseudo-lager for a period of time? I'm thinking of using wy1728 b/c of my cellar temp.

TIA
Scott
 

Bill Ballinger
New Member
Username: Willy_bill

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2006
Posted From: 40.0.40.10
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe that the higher fermentation temperatures will produce more estery/fruity flavors than you would expect to see in a lager. There is nowhere to hide off-flavors in a good lager!

Your best bet would be to use a Kolsch or Alt yeast strain.


(Message edited by willy_bill on February 14, 2006)
 

Mike Gutenkauf
New Member
Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 12
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 64.68.169.121
Posted on Tuesday, February 14, 2006 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have used US-56 in a pseudo-CAP, fermented at 58-60 degrees (air temp). The beer turned out very clean, I can't say if it was "lager-like", because I haven't yet brewed a CAP with lager yeast. (the only cure for this is to brew more, as far as I know) I fermented for a week, bottled, left at low to mid-60s for 2-3 weeks, and put the bottles in the fridge. The early bottles were fairly corny and rough. However, the last few bottles were smooth and crisp after 12 weeks in the fridge.

On another board, I saw mention of using Edme Ale yeast at lager temps resulted in a clean pilsner-style beer. S-33 is supposedly the Edme strain. I intend to brew a split batch lager to see if it will indeed ferment at lager temps.
 

don price
Advanced Member
Username: Donzoid

Post Number: 843
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 24.94.125.190
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have quite a few "lagers" brewed with ale yeasts (Nottingham and US56) entered in the Florida State Fair. I'll let you know if I get hammered for fruity flavors. I fermented most of mine at 52-58 degrees. I could do lagers but don't have the patience. Here's what I came up with for thhis year...

12/10 Negra Modella clone - Nottingham
12/10 Ur-bock clone - Nottingham
12/11 dortmunder export - US56
12/26 schwarzbier - Nottingham
12/27 helles - US56
12/27 steam beer - Nottingham
12/27 koelsch - US56
01/07 CACA - forgot, US56 probably
01/07 DC's oatmeal stout - Nottingham
01/08 alt - Nottingham
01/08 Leffe clone - WLP500 (crazy, not stupid)
01/08 APA - US56
01/08 wheat beer - WLP300

Don
 

David Woods
Advanced Member
Username: Beericon

Post Number: 747
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 4.186.81.24
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I made a baltic porter using 2206. I set the primary bucket in the cleaned brewpot and filled the surrounding with about 3 gallons of water. Then I had about 6 20oz soda bottles filled with frozen water waiting for primary. I swapped the bottles (3 at a time) in the morning and when I got home from work. I kept the water around the bucket at 55F so it was probably only 68ish inside the bucket.

Came out pretty clean for a psuedo-lager and the darker grains helped hide any esters that were surely there.

Good luck!

David
 

Bill Walton
Junior Member
Username: Vladie

Post Number: 81
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 68.47.204.132
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 01:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I recently did a spilt fermentation on a batch of my Old Billwaukee standard American lager recipe. Half I used the Bohemian pilsner yeast, half with 1056. While the 1056 still came out very clean and tasty, when you tasted them side by side there was no comparison. The lager was very crisp and quite dry. The 1056 had just a touch of fruitiness and a sweeter finish.

I primaried the 1056 in the high 50's and lagered in the 30's for about 5 weeks. I think if you could replicate those conditions you could do pretty darn well with a 'fest or a bock, something with a little more going on. With the American standard there's just no room to hide, but that's part of the reason why I did it; I wanted to see just how clean and ale yeast could be, and really see just what differences the yeasts would contribute.

In the past I had some good success using the CA Common yeast under the conditions that you describe Scott. And yes, a lagering session as close to freezing as you can get will make a big difference.

Also, one of the local brewpubs uses 1728 as their house yeast and they do a Helles good enough to win GABF gold a few years back.

Bill
 

Wayne Faris
Junior Member
Username: Wayne

Post Number: 61
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 68.113.177.79
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have had good luck with both Nottingham and with WY1007. I have recently quit using the 1007 due to its poor flocculation and have begun using WLP029 instead with good results. Haven't tried the 1728 yet.

Wayne
Bugeater Brewing Company

(Message edited by wayne on February 15, 2006)
http://www.lincolnlagers.com/
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4686
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 12:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I like Wyeast 1728 quite a bit, but I'm surprised to hear that a lager brewed with it won a GABF gold medal. This strain finishes sligthly sweet and has a very subtle smoky quality that I think would stand out as a flaw in a lager. But obviously there was something about the beer that the judges liked a lot.
 

Scott Morales
Junior Member
Username: Smutty

Post Number: 82
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 208.252.62.130
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks all for the info.
What I'm getting here is that Ale yeasts that have been mentioned produce different characteristics (fruity 1056 or "smokey" 1728) and that these characteristics will stand out when used with some lager recipes. Is this a correct conclusion and if so why? Lack of alpha hops? The recipes I've been considering are from Beer Captured (Hackerpschorr Octoberfest, Hofbrau Helles, Budvar). The commonality is the malts and lack of hops compared to Ales. Is this the reason that "flaws" may stand out b/c of the hop profile? And that the ale yeasts produce these "flaws"?

curious,
Scott
 

Bill Walton
Junior Member
Username: Vladie

Post Number: 82
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 68.47.204.132
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I have frequently heard you reference a subtle smoky flavor from 1728 that I can't say I have ever noticed. I've used this yeast in a broad range of ales and smoky has not been a quality I would assign to any of my beers, or to any of the beers from the brewpub I referenced earlier. I'm not saying its not there, I'm just wondering if there is something in fermentation conditions or in the styles in which you are getting the smokiness.

Now the slightly sweet I'll give you, but if you consult the style guidelines, slightly sweet and malty is a defining characteristic for a Helles.

Scott, I wasn't saying 1056 would make a good beer, just that it won't give you a dead ringer. I wouldn’t say its a matter of hop profile, just that its simply the difference in yeast characteristic. That's why there are different yeast strains, to achieve different results. If one yeast strain could do it all we wouldn't need the broad range that is available.

If you want to enter theses beers into a competition, expect that it might get knocked. On the other hand, if you are just making it for your own enjoyment then who cares?
 

Paul Erbe
Intermediate Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 433
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 12.27.22.67
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott - the short answer. Flaws in one style are attributes of another style.
 

Scott Morales
Junior Member
Username: Smutty

Post Number: 83
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 208.252.62.130
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, yes so it seems. Perfect for a eureka moment I'd say!
 

Bill Walton
Junior Member
Username: Vladie

Post Number: 84
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 68.47.204.132
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 02:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just a point of clarification, the gold maedal winng Helles I referenced earlier was NOT brewed with 1728, but with a lager yeast. I apologize for spreading misinformation and for any damage I might have caused.
 

Greg Beron
Advanced Member
Username: Gberon

Post Number: 507
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 71.104.219.49
Posted on Saturday, February 25, 2006 - 08:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill W., I agree with Bill P. I can detect a smokiness in beers brewed with 1728. One was a Scottish ale which I know did not use peated malt. A smoky flavor is frequently attributed to this yeast.

OTOH, I've used both 1007 and Nottingham to brew faux-lagers. They did have some fridge time for lagering, however.

(Message edited by gberon on February 25, 2006)
Greg Beron
Culver City Home Brewing Supply
www.brewsupply.com
 

Chris Vejnovich
Intermediate Member
Username: Cjv85vmax

Post Number: 419
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 216.96.10.118
Posted on Sunday, February 26, 2006 - 05:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I like 1007 for a psuedo lager. I will say that 1007 just stays in suspesion too damn long and I had to use gelatin for it.

Otherwise, you may want to try a lager strain at say 60F if you can do it. Chris Colby talks about this technique quite a bit. I will admitt that I was very sceptical about this when I first heard Chris talk about it. But, I have had a beer de garde made by Matt Dinges that was produced using WY 2308. I believe the beer was fermented at ale temps. The beer was very smooth. It did have some fruitiness and a distinct sulfur note (I am very sensitive to sulfur), but it was a really nice beer. I know if Chris gets on this thread he can give you all the info you want about his technique for using lager yeast strains at ale temps.