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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through March 24, 2006 * Does listed yeast temp range consider internal fermentation temp increases? < Previous Next >

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Scott Morales
Junior Member
Username: Smutty

Post Number: 95
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 208.252.62.130
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After reading the following posts regarding fermentation temperature I've been giving some thought to this.

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/1/35901.html?1142360854

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/1/35834.html?1141682054

So I checked out JP's site and read:

"... internal temperature of the fermentor can be as much as 10F above ambient conditions, just due to yeast activity. This is one good reason to keep the fermentor in the proper temperature range; so that with a normal vigorous fermentation, the beer turns out as intended, even if it was warmer than the surroundings."

from: http://www.howtobrew.com/section1/chapter8-1-3.html

Palmer seems to imply that the ranges listed for yeast, take into consideration the internal temperature and if you keep your ambiant temperature within this range and have a "normal vigorous fermentation" you should be ok. Does anyone else infer this from his statement? And if so What do you think is he right on or not really? Or am I reading in something that's not there.

thoughts?

TIA
Scott
 

David Lewinnek
Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 238
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 198.51.251.199
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 05:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would expect internal temperature rise to vary with wort density, pitching rate, wort volume, fermenter shape, fermenter material, and cooling method (air cooling vs. ethylene glycol jackets).

Since the yeast manufacturers control none of these variables affecting the magnitude of the internal temperature rise, I don't see how they could take temperature rise into account.

That doesn't mean they don't, it just means they shouldn't.
 

Scott Morales
Junior Member
Username: Smutty

Post Number: 96
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 208.252.62.130
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 06:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I would expect internal temperature rise to vary ..."

right "vary" but JP states "...can be as much as 10F above ambient..."

that's a good amount of wiggle room in which to vary and that's why I'm suspect

Not that I'm advocating this, but let me make a counter argument. If I was a yeast monger/expert I'd know that fermentations can rise as much as 10 degrees or so. I'd also know that exposing fermenting yeast to periodic temperature readings would expose my yeast unnecesarily to risk. So to make life easier on my customers, I'd adjust the range so that the 5-10 degree internal temp is taken into account in the suggested range. Therefore increasing my customers success and selling more yeast.

Am I just losing my mind or is this making sense? don't know a lot about different types of fermenters, but are there some that have thermometer to measure internal temps?

I never considered internal v ambiant temp differences much until recently.. but after chewing on it, one can start to come to conclusions that seem to be counterintuitive to general brewing practices. I mean, say I know my yeast is going to jump 5-10 degress.. and the yeast I'm using has a printed range of 64-75F, but I need to hold my yeast at or near 68F that would mean I'd start my yeast in an ambiant temp outside the printed range. Which then makes me ask, Why consider the range at all for pitchin? why not print a range that starts lower? and isn't this cause for "slow" fermenation if I'm outside the lower part of the range?...man I have questions..


am I just missing something obvious? I seem to be questioning everything..aaaaaaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!
 

damon
Member
Username: Nomad

Post Number: 196
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 141.211.186.200
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 06:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To me the printed ranges are including the internal rise.

If the opposite was true I would not have gotten the fusel-brew of an old ale that WLP023 created when fermented at 70F ambient temp. - which was actually 80F in the carboy (high gravity + hungry yeast = explosive, highly exothermic fermentation). Yum, headache beer...
 

David Lewinnek
Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 239
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 198.51.251.199
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 08:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let me clarify my stance:

I believe the published yeast temperature ranges are for the temperature of the yeast, not the ambient temperature of the room where the fermenter sits.

I've always assumed that the yeast companies did most of their business with microbreweries, brewpubs, and the like, not with homebrewers. Since the professional guys usually have jacketed fermenters with liquid coolant pumped through them, it wouldn't make sense to specify the temperature of the room, it would only make sense to spec the temperature of the yeast.

This is also why some homebrewers use stick-on thermometers on their fermenters, instead of a free standing thermometer somewhere in the room. The stick thermometer measures closer to the true temperature of the yeast.

(Message edited by davelew on March 16, 2006)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2611
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 08:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David reflects my understanding on this.

Dan

--This space is again being left intentionally blank.-


 

Scott Morales
Junior Member
Username: Smutty

Post Number: 97
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 208.252.62.130
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 08:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David thanks for the clarification.

On a completely different note, I noticed that you're in MA. I work in Woburn, live in NH and am looking into buying bulk grain from Noth Country Malts. If you're interested, let me know and we can discuss details. My email is in my profile.
Scott
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2133
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is for the temperature of the wort. The yeast could care less what the temperature is outside of your (their) fermentor...

You'll get much better control of your wort temp during active fermentation if you immerse your fermentor in water vs air (as you'd expect), as it is a much better heat sink...
 

Marty Michael
Junior Member
Username: Carwash

Post Number: 60
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 156.152.45.90
Posted on Thursday, March 16, 2006 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe the temperature is for the temperature of the wort/yeast..not the ambient air temperature. BTW, all I had to do was put a fan blowing across my conical to knock off a few degrees during the vigorous fermentation. Its simple but it really works when your ambient temperature is much cooler than than inside the fermentation vessel. Not as good as water, but certainly easy , simple, and effective if your temperature is not way off.
 

Steven Edward Haun
Member
Username: Stevehaun

Post Number: 196
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 4.159.122.189
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 02:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I ferment both ales and lagers in a chest freezer controlled with a Ranco controller. I place the thermister in a thermowell (from B3) that sits in the middle of the wort. But then again, I was raised by an anal-retentive german mother...
 

Scott Morales
Junior Member
Username: Smutty

Post Number: 98
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 208.252.62.130
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 01:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

thanks for the thoughts.

"the temp ranges are for the wort temp" was always my understanding as well until recently it was shaken by other posts that got me thinking and that Palmer paragraph. I think I'm going to run some tests/experiments and get to understand my fermentor better. I put some stick-on thermometers on a couple locations on it. They read 66F. I'm curious to see the differences when I take the internal temp as i rack. ... hmm interesting stuff. I wonder how much heat diffuses through the plastic materials. anyway thanks again
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 1302
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.109.85.19
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do what Steven Edward Haun does (except for the mother part).

I found that the temperature in the thermowell in the center of the carboy is identical to the temperature on the thermometer stuck on the outside of the carboy.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 2973
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just another short note of my experience with my PP plastic fermentors.

Since I used the very same 8 gallon PP bucket for both fermentation and mashing, I have taken my time and done a rought measure of the heat transfer.

Assuming still air and not excessive air circulations, like fans I found this:

T_wort = T_wall + k*(T_wall-T_ambient)

For my fermentor, k ~ 0.37 (same for both F or C)

So my measureing the ambient temp (assuming it's somewhat stable) and the wall temp, one can extrapolate to guesstimate the internal temp quite well.

It means that if T_ambient = 20 C, and T_wall = 22 C, then T_wort is probably ~ 22.7 C

This is valid only at steady state. Meaning that if your ambient temp suddenly changes, beucause you say open a window or something, the formula is not valid.

Similary you can guesstimate the k value for any setup by just putting hot water in it, and find the best fit k-value of the datasets you get.

There are some issues not accounted for in the formula but i think it's a decent quick and dirty guesstimate.

/Fredrik
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 2974
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

the k-value would depend on the bucket, I've no idea what the case is for a glass carboy, I don't have one.

/Fredrik
 

Scott Morales
Junior Member
Username: Smutty

Post Number: 99
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 208.252.62.130
Posted on Friday, March 17, 2006 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

nice Fredrik thanks for the formula, I'll get my k value when I'm able.