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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through April 06, 2006 * Recirculation and Hot Side Aeration < Previous Next >

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brett matthews
Junior Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 60
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.230.115
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 07:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Up until lately I have been recirculating the wort over the grain bed until it runs quite 'bright' but last brew I only recirculated until there weren't anymore chuncky bits flowing through, which was after around 5 or so litres. The beer seems fine so is there any real reason to recirculate exessively and do you really increase the occurance of hotside aeration if you do so?
 

MJR
Intermediate Member
Username: Mjr

Post Number: 315
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 24.207.220.17
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 09:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Didn't you start this same thread a few days ago?

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/1/36223.html?1143487376
 

PaulK
Intermediate Member
Username: Paulk

Post Number: 302
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 68.84.198.40
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Looks like Brett has had a few too many homebrews.
 

Graham Cox
Intermediate Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 453
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.248.92
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hot side aeration is a myth.

* ducks and flees *

 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2671
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't believe that HSA is a myth, but for it to be a problem in homebrewing, it would probably have to be intentionally induced.

The late Oldenburg Brewery outside Cincy had a mash tun that was stirred with a propeller that sucked air down into the center of the mash for the entire 90 minute mash. The air would obviously bubble up around the sides. Their kegged beer was fine and never tasted oxidized, but their bottled beer oxidized very quickly. It is my understanding that these are the symptoms of HSA.

I believe that they could have fixed the problem by reversing the propeller.

Dan

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Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5524
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I don't believe that HSA is a myth, but for it to be a problem in homebrewing, it would probably have to be intentionally induced. " And I hope to have a chance to see how that would affect the beer. There was a similar discussion on the green board and a guy there decided to do just that...intentionally try to oxidize the whole batch, then see how long it would take for HSA to be noticeable, if it was at all. He's supposedly sending me a couple bottles that are at the 5 month mark now. I'm going to get some of my BJCP buddies together to taste them, without telling them anything about it. I'll report back...
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2673
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, one thing you should consider is that I believe that HSA is really only a concern for filtered bottled beer. As I understand it, HSA sets up precursors to oxidation. You still need O2 to oxidize the beer. Kegged beer does not expose the beer to much O2. Bottle conditioned beer has yeast to scavenge the O2 from the head space. Filtered bottled beer has no ability to remove or absorb the O2 in the head space and this will react with the beer given enough time. HSA precursors rush the process along.

This is at least how I believe HSA works. As usual, I invite correction whenever necessary.

Dan

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Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5525
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, Dan, as much sense as that makes, I believe I've experienced something to the contrary. A friend and I were helping another friend with his first AG brew. Believing that bigger was better, he used 3/4" tubing for his manifold, along with a 3/4" valve and runoff tubing. Huge amount of large air bubbles in his runoff. He bottled the beer (a common) and it tasted great for about 2-3 months. Then at a get together, he brought some and I tasted it along with the other guy who'd helped on the session. It was terribly oxidized. Now, it's of courser possible that there was another source, but based on what I saw the day we brewed, I have to believe it was related to that. But it's only a single data point....
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2674
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 09:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Judging from what I saw at Oldenburg, bubbles in the runoff would seem mild. I suppose your test will be interesting.

If it is any help, I don't believe that I ever tasted a bottled Oldenburg that I considered fresh even when purchased from the brewery's gift shop.

Dan

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robert rulmyr
Advanced Member
Username: Wacobob

Post Number: 753
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 72.48.80.233
Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 01:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What about dumping in the batch sparge water after draining the first runnings? This is what I do. I always consume the beer within a few months, haven't noticed any cardboard taste.
 

brett matthews
Junior Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 62
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.230.115
Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 07:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes I did post this the other day and I'm offended that you'd wondered whether I'd had too much brew PaulK. Of course I've had too much homebrew! For some reason it didn't show up when I logged on so hence the homebrew inspired double up.
 

Kevin Davis
Intermediate Member
Username: Ktdavis98

Post Number: 392
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 152.163.100.8
Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have been concerned with HSA ever since I set up my cooler/tun. I always get bubbles in my line during runoff, and have not been able to stop it. It will start running fine, but once the flow starts slowing the line will fill up with bubbles. I can pull my runoff hose up out of the wort, and stop it but I was not sure which would be worse, splashing, or the bubbles, so I let the bubbles happen.

I have kept kegs up to 8 months, and bottles for up to a year with nothing I could detect. This was everything from several different CACAs, IPAs, APAs, Ambers, to Oatmeal stout. The only one that I thought may have degraded over time was the Oatmeal stout, but it was not really a wet cardboard taste, but seemed more related to a change in the flavor of the dark malts.

Still the bubbles bug the hell out of me when I see them. Maybe I am missing something, but it has been my understanding that the wet cardboard flavor is easily noticed, and continues to get worse.

Very interested in hearing your findings Denny.

Kevin
 

Ned Buntline
Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 151.204.223.194
Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kevin Davis wrote:

"I always get bubbles in my line during runoff..."

You might consider replacing the valve on your tun. Cheap valves tend to suck air into the lever shaft with a kind-of ventura effect. One way to test it would be to lift or press down on the handle during runoff and see if the bubbles go away or reduce. You can try to tighten the ball, but low-end valves tend to have large tolerances inside the mechanism.

Also check to make sure you're not sucking air around the hose connection. A hose clamp can help. Lastly, your bulkhead connection could be sucking air. There is a two-sided thick tape that withstands heat that you can use as a gasket.

If you're looking for good vavles, check with www.buyfittingsonline.com. Great company. I've ordered many things from them and they are very reasonable.
 

Don Lund
Junior Member
Username: Donlund

Post Number: 66
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 64.12.116.8
Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kevin, I would think that all of us get some bubbling when the wort level gets down to where the wort outlet tube (or valve inlet) is not not totally submerged. Well, I do, anyway.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5529
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Robert, all I can tell you is that dumping in the batch sparge water has never produced any problems for me....
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

robert rulmyr
Advanced Member
Username: Wacobob

Post Number: 755
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 72.48.80.233
Posted on Friday, March 31, 2006 - 01:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah! Fast is good!
 

Kevin Davis
Intermediate Member
Username: Ktdavis98

Post Number: 393
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 65.138.71.119
Posted on Wednesday, April 05, 2006 - 12:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ned,
I had not given thought to the valve being the culprit! I had however considered the bulkhead since my cooler / tun seems kind of soft in the area around the hole. Can you elaborate on the tape? I will attack that first, if it does not fix it I will get a new valve.

Kevin