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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through December 23, 2006 * More Fuel for the Chiller Debate, Fix Sanitation Test < Previous Next >

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Flobey
Junior Member
Username: Flobey

Post Number: 73
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 12.107.122.15
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow. Lots of static on the B&V lately. Seems the signal to noise ratio is near its low.

In hopes of adding another opinion to the great chiller debate, I'll throw my experiences into the ring, as well as my results of conducting the Dr. Fix sanitation test. Do with it as you may.

I have two chillers – a Chiller Convolutus and a 50’, ˝” IC – both from B3 (not used together). I live in Atlanta, and with both chillers I must use a pre-chiller in the Summer. Both work very well. I have been using my CFC for some time, and love it. If pressed, I’d probably say the CFC works faster, with less water overall water usage. However, I’ve noticed a reduction in hop aroma using it. I have assumed this is due to the hop aroma wafting away as the majority of hot wort sits in the BK, waiting to go through the CFC. Therefore, for hoppy beers and pale lagers, I use the IC, especially if it’s only 5 gals, and recirc a la Jamil on www.mrmalty.com. Another advantage to the IC is less theoretical DMS, because the wort plunges past the 140 deg threshold very fast (~2 minutes), and being able to leave cold break behind in the BK. The IC is also hands down easier to clean. I clean my CFC by flushing hot PBW through my pump and all my lines and CFC for at least 10 minutes after every 3-4 sessions. (The off sessions it would get a simple flush with hot water.) I chase that with fresh water, and finally blow everything out with compressed air. During the boil for the next session, I pump iodophor through the pump, CFC, and tubing for at least 10 minutes.

I brewed 10 gals of Wheat, and 5 gals of an all-Amarillo, late hop American Amber on Saturday. The Amber was chilled with my IC (no recirc, just frequent stirring), the Wheat went through the CFC. I captured about 4 oz of wort from both batches in 2 mason jars that had been sanitized in a bucket of iodophor for about 30 minutes. The mason jars were then brought inside and set on my heater register, which is right at 98 deg. On Monday evening (36 hrs from boil) the Wheat showed the first signs of an infection, with a very slight ring around the perimeter. It now has a pellicle on top. As of this morning (~80 hrs) the Amber is still very clear.

Now, it’s possible all the extra hops had something to do with helping to preserve the Amber Ale, however I found it very interesting how quickly the Wheat showed signs of infection. My definite take away is a thorough cleaning is due on my CFC and pump. I thought I had very good sanitation techniques, however this was proof there’s always room for improvement. Note, I’ve not had an infected batch since I started, 6 years ago. (well, there was that time my 1 year old removed an airlock, but that’s another story…;)

Hammer away….

Cheers,

Flobey
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 1865
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.4.202.69
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

100 on the signal to noise meter Flobey! Congratulations, and thanks for the contribution.

My first thought is the infection could be caused by any number of things. And, I always thought the CFC would perform better because you can cover the wort while you pump it through the CFC. Also the wort stays hot with hot air currents coming from it.

I don't like the idea of cooler wort exposed to the air while it's being chilled with an IC.

I do clean my CFC with hot PBW at the end of every brew session. I also heat sanitize it by pumping hot wort through it for 10 or 15 minutes just before use.

On another note, I did rig up the mrmalty IC setup. My results were much different. It took me nearly a half hour to get the wort down to about 100F with ~70F tapwater, then with icewater another 10 min or so to get it to 80. I gave up after that and chilled it the rest of the way in the chest freezer.
 

Tom Gardner
Advanced Member
Username: Tom

Post Number: 902
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 162.119.232.100
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Flobey, Thanks for the info. I think that shows that you should clean your CFC more often. I pump hot PBW through my plate chiller as well as the pump and lines after every brew session (no added work because I'd do it for the pump and hoses anyway). I then sanitize it with StarSan and resanitize it before using. You could also bake it or boil it to sanitize.

I think the DMS reasoning is of doubtful import since a 90 minute boil removes almost all of it anyway.

YMMV, Tom

(Message edited by tom on December 06, 2006)
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 215
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 04:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Through all the noise on the other chiller thread I found it interesting that many people don't use a cleaning solution on their cfc after every use. I suppose your experience will show that maybe it's not always necessary and will save time. But, to me this seems very important to the buildup of organics that could cause problems. Sanitizing solution works the best on what is already clean and IMO using just water will not clean something.
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1364
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.8.57.2
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 04:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I clean my plate chiller, post chiller and hoses after each use. It is just too darn easy to add 5 gallons of hot water to the BK and run a cleaning loop. Then again my brewery is designed for easily running cleaning and sanitation loops.

I will have to start doing the Fix test over the next several batches and report back.
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Bob Wall
Advanced Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 560
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 24.99.80.253
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I used to use a homemade immersion chiller and had no problems with it. On occaison it would leak a few drips, but after adding a new bunch of teflon tape, problem solved.

The main reason I went to a CFC was because the IC became a PITA after I added a condensation shield to my rig. The way my rig is designed, the BK is under the MT and during the boil, steam would condensate on the MT burner assembly and drip back into the BK. I had about 20 batches under my belt before I noticed this problem. To correct it, I got a thin sheet of metal from Home Despot and riveted it in place. No more drips, but not it became a hassle to squeeze in the immersion chiller.

Here is my rig:



Here is my Home-made Immersion Chiller:



Here is a close-up of my drip shield:



I really am happy with my therminator. I can cool my wort to pitching temperature as fast as I can pump it from my BK. I have also incorporated an inline oxygenator which is just the icing on the cake.

I just want to mention that a good brewer does not NEED all these whiz-bang gadgets to brew good beer. Many award winning beers are made on the stovetop with extract-only and extract-with-grains recipes. But the gadgets are fun to use and they make it easy for the wife to shop for me on my birthday, Christmas, and Father's Day.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3756
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 05:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

On the topic of chillers of any sort, at this time of year we need to keep in mind that one should not allow chillers to be exposed to freezing temperatures. If there is water left in them, they may very well split should the water freeze.

Dan

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 216
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 07:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Says so right on my Shirron...

Attention: Do not allow any liquids to freeze in the Chiller as it may cause damage to the plates.
 

Bob Wall
Advanced Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 561
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 139.76.128.71
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I only have to worry about that one or two nights a year down here in GA. but it can be a gotcha if you ain't paying attention.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1646
Registered: 03-2001
Posted From: 65.163.6.62
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 08:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some dude in Chi-town sold a few Shirrons on ebay for $49, listed as blemished factory seconds. The only thing I could find wrong with mine is it says:

"Attention: Do not all any liquids to freeze in the Chiller as it may cause damage to the plates."

So after I use it for the first time this coming weekend I'm gonna come back and get in on that thread with the immersion vs. plate chiller battle!
 

Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 765
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 12.27.22.67
Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I bought one as well. I wont get it until Xmas
 

Belly Buster Bob
Senior Member
Username: Canman

Post Number: 2669
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 74.119.173.225
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 12:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have one little problem with your sanitation test (with all due respect to the great Mr. Fix)
How can it be a viable test when there is air in the jar as well? The spores could quite easily have been in the air. The test means nothing unless all variables except the wort are removed
Bellybuster Bob
www.bellybuster.netfirms.com
 

Flobey
Junior Member
Username: Flobey

Post Number: 74
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.56.19.164
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 02:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good point, BBB. Didn't think of that. I would have to ponder how to remove the air to be completely thorough.
 

Tom Meier
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdawg96

Post Number: 439
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 69.38.108.177
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 03:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think the sanitation test shows you that you should recirculate boiling wort through the chiller, rather than rely on cleaners and iodophor

The buildup of organics in the chiller from not obsessively running PBW through after each session doesn't matter if you BOIL THE CRAP OUT OF IT.

heat is the best sanitizer there is.
 

Flobey
Junior Member
Username: Flobey

Post Number: 76
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.56.19.164
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 05:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hang on, BBB. If the infection I'm seeing in my Wheat is from the ambient air, I would see the same in my Amber Ale, right? Which, BTW, is still not showing any signs of infection. Only thing I'm noting is a slight positive pressure in both mason jars, but nothing visible.....Oh, and it's DR. FIX to you... ;)
 

ScottDeW
Intermediate Member
Username: Scott

Post Number: 490
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 193.179.225.19
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 07:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting test, Flowby.

I'd like to see the test again using the same batch of beer.

Oh, and most people make lambics in bigger batches than 4oz. at a time.

You're such a dork. :-)

Hey, you did say, "Hammer away..."!

(Message edited by scott on December 07, 2006)
Scott
http://texanbrew.com
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 218
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 04:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

heat is the best sanitizer there is.

Yes, but is heat the best cleaner there is?

I know heat will sanitize a clean chiller, but can boiling wort or water be used exclusively so that cleaners and sanitizers aren't necessary?

Since I don't use a pump the SOP for my plate chiller is a series of backflushing and soaking in cleaning solution after use and sanitize with boiling water before use. Is it really obsessive to clean a chiller after every use?
 

Tom Gardner
Advanced Member
Username: Tom

Post Number: 903
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 162.119.232.100
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Boiling alone won't kill spores. For that you'll need heat and increased pressure. Anyone know if higher heat from an oven will kill all spores? Tom
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 2555
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I don't like the idea of cooler wort exposed to the air while it's being chilled with an IC. "

That's simple to fix. Just put a lid on it while chiling. I have one where I cut a notch out where the IC chiller tubing exits. Of course with Bob's arrangement where the tubing exits the kettle at different points that becomes more difficult to do.

I've done un-planned sanitztion tests by forgetting the hydrometer sample on the counter. I've been amazed that after several days of being open to the air that there was still no visible signs of fermentation. After a week is a different story. Oh, and I use an IC.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1844
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.130.193
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Even though boiling might sterilize a chiller, if there's still gunk in/on it, you have a food source for a new infection, I would think.
 

Tom Meier
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdawg96

Post Number: 440
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 68.154.187.68
Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 05:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


quote:

I know heat will sanitize a clean chiller, but can boiling wort or water be used exclusively so that cleaners and sanitizers aren't necessary?



I say yes.

I flush well with tap water after each session. recirc boiling wort for 10 minutes, then start chilling.

Think about this - do people soak their immersion chillers in PBW because of buildup of organics? None that I know of. they just spray off...

I do the same with a CFC by flushing with a hose.

The small gaps inbetween IC coils seem like more of a place to hold stuff than the smooth inside of a 1/2" CFC chiller.
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 220
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Friday, December 08, 2006 - 04:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe I'm just being overly cautious because it's a plate chiller. Since it's a fairly new device for the homebrewer, there have been discussions here on how it may be hard to keep this type of chiller clean and sanitary over the long haul.
 

Spiked Helmet
Junior Member
Username: Hey_newt

Post Number: 67
Registered: 07-2004
Posted From: 216.166.244.50
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Flobey,

May be a bad question but...What is your compressed air source that you use to blow out your CFC? Seems like you might be doing all that work to sanitize just to shoot bad guys back in on the last step.
 

dhacker
Advanced Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 649
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 72.155.201.191
Posted on Saturday, December 09, 2006 - 11:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The small gaps in between IC coils seem like more of a place to hold stuff than the smooth inside of a 1/2" CFC chiller.

That may be the most intelligent deduction I've heard on the subject.

Good one, Tom!
 

Flobey
Junior Member
Username: Flobey

Post Number: 77
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.56.19.164
Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 06:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Spike - compressed air is from an air compressor in my shop. I only do this step immediately before storage, not before using it.
 

Graham Cox
Advanced Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 795
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Sunday, December 10, 2006 - 06:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A few months ago, I visited a brewpub in St. Louis by the arch, I don't remember the name right offhand. I spent at least an hour with the brewer back in the brewery part of the brewpub. It was an all-lager brewery (surprise) and in order to work this program, he had two plate chillers back-to-back in series.

He readily admitted that his sanitation routine was probably somewhat anal, but he did a double-flush, forward-and-backward deal, where he forced sanitizer forward and backwards twice through the whole mechanism after each and every use.

Just another data point.
 

Jon Steinhauer
Advanced Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 970
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 70.100.85.151
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 04:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't forget that the practices used in the brewery are not meant to sterilize, only to sanitize, so there will always be a few organisms around. The population just has to be insignificant compared to the beer yeast population.

The liquid sanitizers only work on contact, and you can not be sure there are no air pockets and other small areas that don't get contacted in a CFC of any sort. You can be assured that heat is there for the time applied. Additionally, most of the organisms we are concerned about in the brewery are non-spore formers and yeasts, and the common spore formers seem to be sensitive to the pH and alcohol in the fermenting beer.

I've been using convoluted and plate CFC's for about five years, and I've never had infected beer using them. As others, I flush with hot water after use, boil to sanitize before use and recirculate hot wort during the boil to sanitize the hoses. About once a year I boil everything in a carbonate cleaner to get the buildup off.
Steinhauer
 

dhacker
Advanced Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 652
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 70.146.180.41
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 12:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

. . and you can not be sure there are no air pockets and other small areas that don't get contacted in a CFC of any sort.

Not sure I understand why. If you back flush from bottom to top, the liquid should always be "pushed" up the smooth, spiraling pipe and fill every nook and cranny, shouldn't it? And there ain't many nooks 'n crannies in a CFC! (unless you're using convoluted tubing)

(Message edited by dhacker on December 11, 2006)
 

Jon Steinhauer
Advanced Member
Username: Jstein6870

Post Number: 973
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 216.70.45.1
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 02:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Aren't we discussing CFC's in general, including convoluted and plate type chillers?
Steinhauer
 

Zack
Junior Member
Username: Soverythirsty

Post Number: 92
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 72.93.219.215
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As a general rule, contact sanitizers are only appropriate where heat sanitization/sterilization is not feasible.

Corporate policy at the brewpub (uniform in the chain) is to sterilize our heat exchangers (one water, one glycol) by circulating 180F+ water through them for 30 minutes. This is accomplished by circulating the sparge water as it is heated during the 30 min saccrification rest.

The exchangers are also cleaned as part of the daily CIP cycle, but I hardly expect them to be perfect. They've never been disassembled (at my location). We've never had an issue with infection.

Flobey: Your 10min iodine cycle is silly. You'd be better off circulating near-boiling wort before starting the chilling water. Additionally, your mason jars are as likely a source of the infection as your chiller. In each case your choice of sanitation methods does not address the issue of "unclean" equipment and lines.
 

Flobey
Junior Member
Username: Flobey

Post Number: 78
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 204.124.198.29
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for your input, Zack.

Copied from above: "I clean my CFC by flushing hot PBW through my pump and all my lines and CFC for at least 10 minutes after every 3-4 sessions. (The off sessions it would get a simple flush with hot water.) I chase that with fresh water."

If the equipment is clean, why is a 10 min contact time with sanitizer "silly"?

The mason jar was visually spotless before it went to the sanitation phase as well for good measure.

I probably will continue my cleaning regimen, however I'll add a recirc of boiling wort as well.
 

Zack
Junior Member
Username: Soverythirsty

Post Number: 94
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 72.93.219.215
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 08:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Flobey-

You "think" it's clean...

PBW is non-caustic, so it emulsifies but doesn't dissolve, and any dried organics are unlikely to become fully wetted by your process. Additionally, if your water is hard you may have a scaling issue (limestone and calcium, plus beerstone). This is compounded by the irregular cleaning cycles.

(here's an interesting anecdote: A few weeks ago I noticed a small rough spot under the manway (access hatch) in one of our 7BBL serving tanks. Inspection with a flashlight revealed some type of encrusted material. I couldn't scrub it off and ended up chipping it away with a flat-head screwdriver. The characteristics of the resulting thimble-full of dust caused me to guess that the spot was yeast that had been baked-on by our high-temperature cleaning process)

None of this is to say the situation is hopeless. You already know that contact sanitizers aren't a sure thing when the equipment isn't clean. Thus, heat is the only way to go (and your iodophor cycle is really just for peace of mind).

And as for all that dried-on organic material, scale, and beerstone in your chillers; don't worry about it. Once sterilized it can only add flavors that none of your beers will ever be light enough to detect.

Plus, you'll never get rid of it...
 

dhacker
Advanced Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 654
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 72.4.22.214
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jon . . yeah, I guess so!

I'd still like to be able to observe how liquid flows up the inside piping of a CFC. I wish I could find some clear convolute tubing! Be interesting to see where any air pockets develop.
 

Mike Mayer
Advanced Member
Username: Mmayer

Post Number: 752
Registered: 12-2002
Posted From: 68.76.106.138
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 11:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You guys actually "clean" your CFC's????? Man, in 5 years, I have NEVER "cleaned" my CFC. The most it gets is a 5 minute recirculation of hot wort from the boil kettle, and a 2 minute cold water rinse after I'm done. Knocking on wood.........but I've never had a bad batch...........or..............maybe ALL my beer is infected and I just like infected beer........who knows
 

Bill Tobler
Intermediate Member
Username: Billt

Post Number: 384
Registered: 08-2001
Posted From: 68.201.218.172
Posted on Monday, December 11, 2006 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, you asked:

"Boiling alone won't kill spores. For that you'll need heat and increased pressure. Anyone know if higher heat from an oven will kill all spores? Tom"

Hey Tom, from "First Steps in Yeast Culture" by Pierre Rajotte, dry heat alone does not do a good job on spores. They are the most resistant. The good news is that "Bacteria that shed spores are not encountered in finished beer, although they could grow in unfermented non-sterilized unhopped wort." From the book. To sterilize glassware and CFC in the oven, the author suggests 338 deg F (170C) for 45 minutes. The book quotes other temps between 320 - 356 for varying times.

Wet heat is better and quicker. A pressure cooker at 15 psi cooks at 250 deg F. 15 minutes there and everything is dead, including all spores.

My CFC gets a hot water flush after every session and blown clear with CO2. All the equipment gets a PBW clean in place wash 2 X year. My CFC was bought from Precision Brewing Systems in another life. I think they closed down.
Bill Tobler
Brewing Great Beer in South Texas
 

Bill Tobler
Intermediate Member
Username: Billt

Post Number: 385
Registered: 08-2001
Posted From: 68.201.218.172
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 12:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, you said up top that,

"I think the DMS reasoning is of doubtful import since a 90 minute boil removes almost all of it anyway."

I always thought that as long as the wort was hot, (>140?) it will produce DMS. I can't find the reference where I read that. We have always been taught not to cover our kettles for fear of DMS flavors. And that is true, as we all know. But, if DMS is continually produced while the wort is hot, it could be a problem if you use a CFC, and cover the kettle while draining off the hot wort. I had a DMS problem once, two or three lagers I made back to back. Up till then, I always covered my kettle while chilling. It was feasible that the DMS was coming out of the kettle in the steam, hitting the lid and falling back in. I quit covering the kettle, and the problem went away. But heck, it could have been the yeast or the malt I was using. I hear some Pils malts have high DMS problems also.
Bill Tobler
Brewing Great Beer in South Texas
 

Zack
Junior Member
Username: Soverythirsty

Post Number: 97
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 72.93.219.215
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 12:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From: http://hbd.org/discus/messages/34426/38936.html?1160244844 "Chilling wort and DMS"

DMS is very volatile and boils off almost immediately after being created from SMM (the primary source) in the kettle. However, it is still being created after knockout, but is no longer being volatized (i.e., it's accumulating). Additionally, the lower the temperature, the less DMS is created (down to a threshold around 140oF). Thus, get your chiller in gear faster.

DMS is a bigger problem in systems that require long, slow whirlpools at near-boil temperatures before slow runoff to chillers (allowing the wort to remain near-boiling for 30 minutes or more). You should be able to get away with a very short whirlpool followed by immediate chilling in very little time in a homebrewery.
 

Zack
Junior Member
Username: Soverythirsty

Post Number: 98
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 72.93.219.215
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 12:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Of course, by "knockout" I meant "flameout."
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6032
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 02:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Zack. I wouldn't worry about DMS unless the wort spent a very long time at elevated temperatures after boiling. Even then there is anecdotal evidence of no problem, as reported by the likes of Dan Listermann and Ken Anderson. I realize this may open a hornet's nest of controversy, but I'm only passing along what they have mentioned and one of Ken's slow-cooled beers that I sampled myself.
 

Dan Listermann
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Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3774
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.220.144
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 03:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, the 3PA of mine that you sampled was fan cooled. To blow another myth away, it was about a third corn sugar. I really need to brew another.

Dan

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Tom Gardner
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Username: Tom

Post Number: 911
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 24.9.151.219
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 12:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill T., Thanks for the info on the oven sanitization.

It is true that DMS is produced from SMM above 140F. But there is only so much DMS in the malt to start with. Lighter malts like lager malts have more, while darker malts (even pale ale malts) have much less. The half-life of DMS in the boil is supposed to be about 40 minutes, so a 90 minute boil will get you down to less than 25% of the original amount. DMS won't evaporate unless the wort is boiling, so keeping it covered during the chilling won't matter. Here's a good synopsis.

http://www.abtonline.com/dms.html

Brew on, Tom
 

Bill Tobler
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Username: Billt

Post Number: 386
Registered: 08-2001
Posted From: 68.201.218.172
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Tom for the info on DMS. So it looks like a 90 minute boil, especially when making German Lagers is in order. I usually boil at least 75 minutes, and sometimes 90. This looks like a good subject for a short talk at one of our brew club meetings.
Bill Tobler
Brewing Great Beer in South Texas
 

Bill Tobler
Intermediate Member
Username: Billt

Post Number: 387
Registered: 08-2001
Posted From: 68.201.218.172
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I tried to edit my post above, but the board would not let me. I thought I could do that.

I meant to include Zack in that Thanks above.
Bill Tobler
Brewing Great Beer in South Texas
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1656
Registered: 03-2001
Posted From: 65.163.6.62
Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 03:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I'm back.

I used my Shirron for the first time this past weekend and suffice it to say, IT ROCKS!

Prior to this I used an immersion chiller which was 50' of 3/8" copper tubing and a coil within a coil. With my tap water around 55-60 degrees it would typically take me a *minimum* of an hour and around 40-50 gallons of water to get 11 gallons of wort down to 70 degrees. That included stirring the wort near the end of the chilling process.

Yesterday with the tap water at 56 degrees I chilled 11 gallons to 60 degrees (had to actually throttle back on the water inlet because the wort was creeping down to 56 itself) in 15 minutes, which is the time it took to run off from the kettle. I also used 25-30 gallons of water.

With water usage practically cut in half and chilling time 1/4 what it use to be, I am very pleased with this purchase. Clean up was as easy as adding the chiller into my recirculation loop and running PBW through the system, which I always do anyway. One other benefit is the chiller is approximately 12" x 3" x 2". It sits on the shelf in my supply cabinet. Overall a slick, little piece of equipment for the price.
 

Sean Richens
Intermediate Member
Username: Sean

Post Number: 351
Registered: 04-2001
Posted From: 142.161.108.14
Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 01:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Davidw's data point seems right, I am chilling about 4 USG in 20 minutes with the exact same size immersion chiller. My tap water is typically 4C during brew season, but I'm aiming for a 10C pitching temperature. I throttle it back once the outlet water feels cool. I deal with long processes by organizing my brew day to stay busy doing some chore or other.

Even if/when I get my larger system built, I can't see volunteering to worry about a CFC. I worry enough about the beer stone on my chiller. By the way, what's a good cleaner for beer stone on copper?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6060
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 03:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sean, use CLR to clean beer stone; it works rather well. A strong solution of Star San would also likely do the job. I know a couple of brewpubs that use Star San to shine their copper jacketed vessels.
 

Tom Meier
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdawg96

Post Number: 453
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.157.39.14
Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 04:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use star san.. it takes the brown stuff in your boil kettle right off.. next time you are dumping out a starsan/saniclean sanitizing solution, just put it into your brewpot.. wait 10 minutes and lightly sponge/scrub off the stone.
 

Zack
Member
Username: Soverythirsty

Post Number: 103
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 72.93.219.215
Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 08:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, Bill, Sean-

To be clear, beerstone must be removed manually. CIP will soften it, but CIP will not carry it away. Many studies have been conducted on this issue (generally involving beerstone inside kegs, where scrubbing/wiping is difficult), and the results are consistent.

If beerstone on an internal surface is a concern to you, be sure to employ a rigerous cleaning and flushing program on your equipment.

Or be like me (and so many others) and let your homebrew do what it will. After all, it's still better than anything you can buy (most of the time).
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6061
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Zack, you're basically correct about beerstone requiring manual scrubbing to remove completely, but CLR will do a reasonably good job on its own, at least in a homebrewing environment. When I worked in a brewpub we did an acid wash of the kettle after every fourth or fifth batch (in addition to cleaning with caustic after each use). The acid CIP would soften the beerstone, but it still required climbing inside and scrubbing (not a lot of fun) to remove it completely.

(Message edited by BillPierce on December 15, 2006)
 

dhacker
Advanced Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 666
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 72.155.201.188
Posted on Friday, December 15, 2006 - 12:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Rank hath its privileges.

Bill edited his post . . .

. . . and it still had grammatical errors!