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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through December 23, 2006 * Why do we mash out? < Previous Next >

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Eric Lord
Member
Username: Eric_lord

Post Number: 133
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 162.58.35.101
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Besides making the wort more viscous, and denaturing the enzymes, is there anything else?

How importent is it to denature the enzymes? Won't they be denatured in just a few minutes anyway when we boil? I am a little confused.

eric.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6069
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're basically correct, Eric. More recent research shows there is some enzyme activity up to the point where the runoff is boiled, even if there has been a mashout. The main purpose of a mashout is to facilitate more complete conversion (this improves efficiency slightly) and ease sparging. However, it's certainly not required and I don't think it can be said that it absolutely improves the beer.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3794
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I quit doing mash outs years ago. I like my beers a little on the dry side so I am not interested in denaturing the enzymes and, when I did mashouts, I could never measure an efficiency boost over not bothering.

Dan

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6070
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know of any homebrewer who does a long enough mashout at a high enough temp to denature the enzymes. To me, the main purpose for mashout is simply to reduce the vicosity of the wort. Even that's not that big a deal. I do a mashout when I can and don't worry about it when I can't.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Connie
Advanced Member
Username: Connie

Post Number: 895
Registered: 10-2000
Posted From: 24.98.76.59
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 09:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do a mash out every time. I don't know if it helps or not, but it's a part of my process.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1864
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.130.193
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 10:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And you just stir and let 'er rip, right? No waiting?
 

michael atkins
Intermediate Member
Username: Mga

Post Number: 485
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 71.214.30.107
Posted on Saturday, December 16, 2006 - 11:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually I do a mash out and call it the first addition of my batch sparge.

One could debate if this is indeed a "mash out" or the "first batch sparge addition". If you substitute the terminology for "mash out" with the "first batch sparge addition", then it calculates real nicely in Promash. Promash calculates at what temperature is required to fill the mash vessel to my mash tun capacity. This addition is usually between 190 - 197d for my system, to bring the mash up to 165d. Actually if I miss this 165d goal I dont worry about it. Then this is then transferred to the boil kettel.

Then the second and usually the last addition (2nd batch sparge)is 170d sparge water. It's not necessarily a "50 50" split as recommended in the "Ken Swartz" or "Denny Conn" batch sparge instructions, but it's usually close. Everything concerning mash and sparge water additions is predetermined as calculated. The neat thing is I "usually" hit my pre boil kettel amounts exactly. Then its boil time!

Edited because I was slightly drunk and got two different posts confused!

(Message edited by mga on December 16, 2006)
Love This Hobby!

http://msnusers.com/micksbrewery
 

Jim O'Conner
Advanced Member
Username: Roguejim

Post Number: 784
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 65.124.40.173
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 03:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ken, I'm no expert, but I don't wait after stirring more than a couple of minutes to let the grain bed settle. I batch sparge, so it's all about saving time anyway.
Jim
 

Bill Tobler
Intermediate Member
Username: Billt

Post Number: 399
Registered: 08-2001
Posted From: 216.99.65.10
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 05:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do a mash out every time because I can without any extra trouble. I step the mash up to 168 degrees F and let it sit for 15 minutes. Its just part of my procedure. When I don't do it, I really don't see a difference in efficiency or in the quality of the beer. A creature of habit I guess.
Bill Tobler
Brewing Great Beer in South Texas
 

Jeff Preston
Member
Username: Jeffpreston

Post Number: 217
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 207.161.45.132
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I pretty much do the same as Michael. But I rest for 10 min. before recirculating and run off.
 

Dave Coppes
Junior Member
Username: Pale_dave

Post Number: 33
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 24.91.216.6
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For my last 2 batches I added boiling water to bring the mash up to 168 F and then started recirculating.

Efficiency was pretty high which I was worried about because the crush didn't look that good (I really need to get my own mill and stop grinding at my LHBS..their machine is pretty loose!). I'm guessing efficiency was good because of the higher viscosity. One of the batches was an oatmeal stout...and it didn't stick, which I was worried about as well.

I don't have a side by side batch to compare to so I don't know for sure that efficiency improved, but it was on the high side of the AG batches I've done so far.

I then finished with a fly sparge with the remaining sparge volume. Things went faster than when I used to fly sparge the whole thing without the mash out. I didn't really hold it that long. Just a few minutes and then started recirculating.

Time saved and possibly higher efficiency...probably will continue with this procedure on future batches. Can't see any down side.
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 665
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 24.158.157.254
Posted on Sunday, December 17, 2006 - 04:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't do a mash-out anymore. I broke the habit.

T
 

tranquil_liza
Intermediate Member
Username: Tranquil_liza

Post Number: 441
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 68.42.201.229
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 07:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

wouldn't mashing out be a good idea if a person was first wort hopping?? seems like a 165 degree temp might release more hop attributes into the wort rather than a temp of 150. just a thought.
*****

Rated #1 by "FIVE STAR"

 

Joakim Ruud
Intermediate Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 452
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 84.209.10.232
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 08:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You mean mash hopping?
 

Tim Polster
Member
Username: Bassman

Post Number: 227
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 69.149.61.126
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have been using the "Super-Fly" technique discussed here and have had the same efficiency & taste results as normal batch sparging with a mashout.

So now I conduct the mash as usual and close to the end I heat all of my sparge water up to ~170 deg.

Instead of adding ~2 hot gallons of water to bring the mash up to 168, I stir & vorlauf then drain wide open while adding the sparge water at the same flow rate.

It is a lot quicker than batch sparging as there is less water heating time and one less vorlauf.

Time is important to me and every little bit saved can help me brew more often.
 

Steve Sampson
Intermediate Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 300
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.137.233.151
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"You mean mash hopping?"

I think Liza is referring to the fact that in the kettle, the wort would be a little hotter if you did a mash out.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1874
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.130.193
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where is Scott and his toadies these days? (Notice they plan and swoop en mass?) Much too civil around here.

Now, would someone give me my one star, please?
 

tranquil_liza
Intermediate Member
Username: Tranquil_liza

Post Number: 442
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 68.42.201.229
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ken Anderson...what does rat ass location have to do with mashing out?? i'll probably never get an answer now to a legitimate question.

Steve Sampson...thank you for clarifying my question for Joke. i would have preferred you answered it, though. i really did want to know.
*****

Rated #1 by "FIVE STAR"

 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1875
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.130.193
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, I would say that FWH'ing is a pretty mysterious creature to begin with. 165F could produce a result different from 150F. Then again, 135F might also! Granted, the 135F means more effort and time, but you get what I mean.
Also, FWH'ing has been challenged on a few fronts, and its effect on flavor may be so subtle, that a difference due to a 15F temperature swing one way or the other may indeed be imperceivable.
This would be my take on it anyhow.

Ken
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 4478
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>>seems like a 165 degree temp might release more hop attributes into the wort rather than a temp of 150.

I would think yes, but one has to realize that the 15F difference is just one of many variables in FWH. I think the amount of hops, the time spent between sparging and bringing the wort up to boil, hop freshness, and pellets vs. whole probably make a bigger difference.

I mash out whenever I can, simply because I batch sparge and add near boiling water to the lauter tun. The only time I don't mash out is when I am brewing a barley wine or similar big beer when my tun is nearly fun (no room for boiling water).
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 225
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If in fact a hotter wort increased the benefits of FWH a simpler method may be to light the burner as you drain the mash tun instead of doing a mash out. Many brewers may already do this as standard procedure.
 

Joakim Ruud
Intermediate Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 454
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.51.70
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 05:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I think Liza is referring to the fact that in the kettle, the wort would be a little hotter if you did a mash out."

But, but... When you bring the kettle to a boil, it will rise up through those temps anyway!

Oh well, to each his own.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6074
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 06:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AFAIK, there's never been any study or documentation of the effects of temp on FWH. At thei point, it's all speculation. Jamil Z. and I are putting together an experiment that we hope will answer some of these questions.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Steve Sampson
Intermediate Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 301
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 129.137.233.151
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Right, but Joakim thats still two different temperature regimens? Just because the hops pass through 165 on the way to boil doesn't mean anything, there could be reactions that take longer and need a certain temperature, who knows?

BTW I'm not saying there would be a difference either way, I was just clarifying to you what Liza was saying.

I haven't really been to impressed with first wort hoppin, but then again I'm no beer judge either.
 

Joakim Ruud
Intermediate Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 455
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 84.209.10.232
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 06:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, very curious to hear the results of your experiment!
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6075
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 74.60.30.238
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 06:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joakim, we hope to publish the results by spring.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 402
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.53.99
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I quit mashing out a year ago and think its a waste of time.

I don't know about you guys, but FWH on my system is just too damn strong. I used to use 1.5oz per 10g and it was just too much with the usual 2oz/15min, 2oz/knockout pale ale. Got flavor hops coming on so strong you could go into shock. Every beer was tasting like DGFHD 60minIPA (arrgh, but 90, well, thats nice). But it takes 20+min to get a boil, and I use a Chillzilla so the knockout hops get more flavor addition time.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6077
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 08:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Andrew, with the FWH, you should skip the 15 min. addition. That may make it more to your liking.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2331
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Monday, December 18, 2006 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I notice a significant difference leaving the FWH in at 165-175 for the whole sparge, rather than bringing the wort to a boil sooner. I suspect as SS says there are definitely some reactions/bonding going on in that temperature range, good stuff!
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 405
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.53.99
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 02:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe so on the low temps right during sparging - and I don't mash out so I was in the 140Fs, even lower than 165F! After a few of those FWH beers I just kind of quit doing them. Grass city. I agree with Denny, I just returned back to the 15 min addition.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6086
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 05:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait a minnit...I was saying go with the FWH and drop the 15 min. addition.....
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 669
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 170.141.68.2
Posted on Thursday, December 21, 2006 - 07:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tim P,

SUPER-FLY...

gotta love it.

Tim
 

Tim Polster
Member
Username: Bassman

Post Number: 228
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 70.243.217.190
Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 01:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Tim, thanks again for bringing this to my attention, it really does save some time!
 

Dave Coppes
Junior Member
Username: Pale_dave

Post Number: 36
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 24.91.216.6
Posted on Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 02:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Either Tim - can you define what you mean by super fly? What I mentioned in my previous post is that super fly?