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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2007 * Archive through February 12, 2007 * Imperial IPA recipe < Previous Next >

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Looking for a Three Hearted ale RecipeChris Herrold02-06-07  02:51 am
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Animal House
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Username: Beerboy

Post Number: 126
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Posted From: 66.92.32.205
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Seeking recipes for an Imperial IPA. I have a nice yeast cake of US-56 that will be ready for some new wort in the next week or so. I'll make 5 gallons. Will have to be partial mash, since I can mash only about 10 lb. of grain.
 

Chumley
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Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Pliny the Elder recipe, provided in this thread, is very good:

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/34426/36601.html
 

Geoff Buschur
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 05:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another thread with a few recipes:
http://hbd.org/discus/messages/26895/29769.html
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Animal House
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Post Number: 127
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the reference, Chumley. Looking at the recipes in that thread, it seems that most of the recipes mix and match 5 or 6 types of hops. Is that typical?
 

Chumley
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes...I recall an article in Zymurgy a few years ago where most commercial IIPA brewers found that their best results from using multiple hop varieties...with multiple additions at various times.
 

davidw
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perhaps for some, AH. Personally, one of my favorite IIPA's that I brew is 100% Optic malt and all Simcoe hops. Delicious!
 

Animal House
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 06:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Looking at all these recipes, I see that many use mash hopping or first-wort hopping. I've read a bit about those practices, but I'm not entirely sure what they mean.

I guess "mash hopping" means you add the hops to the mash. And I think "first wort hopping" is when you add the hops to the brew kettle at the same time that you are draining the mash tun (before the brew kettle reaches a boil). Is that right?
 

Bill Pierce
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 06:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, AH, you're basically correct. To be slightly more accurate, FWH is adding the hops to the first runnings in the kettle and letting them steep as the sparge runoff is added prior to the boil.

My own take is that FWH does seem to improve hop flavor for those styles that emphasize hops (certainly IIPA is in that category). As for mash hopping, it seems a waste of hops (it's less efficient) to me, but others are entitled to their opinions. I suspect some of the IIPA recipes include mash hopping because the style is almost all about hops in all their possible inclusions (dry hopping as well).
 

Animal House
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, I understand. Thanks for the clarification, Bill. Do mash hopping or FWH add any IBUs? If so, how do you calculate those IBUs?
 

Chumley
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 07:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mash hopping is a way to use up hops that are getting a tad bit old in the freezer, IMHO. I don't think they add much either, but the whole point of IIPA is to get as much hops as possible into the beer.

Mash hops add zero IBUs. Figure FWH hops to add about the same bitterness as a 15 minute addition.
 

Steve Funk
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 08:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't bother wasting hops in the mash unless you're going to throw them out anyway. I treat FW hopping equivalent to a 20 min addition WRT IBU contribution, in line with Denny Conn's observations. But as we all know, hop utilization is a guesstimate at best w/o a gas chromatograph.
 

Animal House
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 08:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks to all of you for the advice. Here's the recipe that I've formulated. Any suggestions are welcome.

Grains (mash at 150F for 90 minutes) (projected OG = 1.090):
5.0 lb. American 2-row;
5.0 lb. English Maris Otter;
8 oz. Carapils;
4 oz. American Crystal 40L;
4 oz. CaraVienne

Adjuncts: 6.0 lb. pale liquid malt extract

Hops (projected IBU = 98):
1.0 oz. Columbus 14.2% (first-wort hops);
1.0 oz. Columbus 14.2% and 0.5 oz. Chinook 11.6% (60 min.);
0.5 oz. Columbus 14.2% (45 min.);
0.5 oz. Cascade 6.0% (30 min.);
1.0 oz. Cascade 6.0% and 1.0 oz. Amarillo 8.0% (15 min.);
1.0 oz. Cascade 6.0% and 1.0 oz. Amarillo 8.0% (0 min.);
1.0 oz. Cascade 6.0% and 1.0 oz. Amarillo 8.0% (dry hop in secondary)

Yeast: Yeast cake of US-56 from previous beer

I think I'll need a blowoff tube for this one!

Any other suggestions to ensure a good recipe and fermentation?
 

Doug J
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My personal take is that 98 calculated BUs is far too little for an IIPA.

I think you should be shooting for a calculated IBU level of somewhere in the neighborhood of 200.

You will lose bitterness at every stage, so my advice is to start high.

I would also lose the CaraPils, all it does is cause beer farts.
Malam cerevisiam faeceus in cathedram stercoris
 

Dan Listermann
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Gunnar, I did a little test using 100% mash hopping for a batch and was surprised to find that it did produce bitterness albeit at a low level. My theory is that the lupulin glands are dislodged or dissolved in the mash and transferred to the boil. If you recall, I had Doug J. test the bitterness. I can't remember all the numbers anymore, but the utilization was very low and the flavor was nothing to write home about.

Dan Listermann

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Doug J
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve, you don't need a GC to figure out utilization, just a spectrophotometer and some smelly chemicals.
Malam cerevisiam faeceus in cathedram stercoris
 

Doug J
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Dan, I remember that test very well. Thanks for your participation in that, it was a great experiment.
Malam cerevisiam faeceus in cathedram stercoris
 

Doug J
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is the thread in which I tested mash-hopped beers. Chet Nunan's mash-hopped porter had an incredible amount of hop flavor, i remember being very surprised by it.

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/26895/30464.html?1117736957
Malam cerevisiam faeceus in cathedram stercoris
 

Animal House
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought I read somewhere (maybe here) that there is a limit on the number of IBUs because of limits on rate at which alpha acids are isomerized and dissolved in the wort. If that's the case, what's the point of adding more hops if they can't be utilized?

In other words, will adding more bittering hops really increase the IBUs? What's the limit?
 

Bill Pierce
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 09:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is some information about this in the link Doug supplies from the archives. We're really talking about two things: the solubility of isomerized alpha acids and the ability of the human palate to perceive bitterness.
 

Animal House
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, I read the link. I understand that we're talking about two things, but the only one I really care about is how the beer tastes. I guess what I mean is why bother increasing the number of IBUs (from a scientific standpoint) if you can't taste them?
 

Doug J
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Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My premise is that if you achieve the maximum possible soluble IBUs, then the ones that you lose during fermentation will have less of an effect on the final product.

I have the unique position of being able to test an IIPA throughout it's "lifecycle" for lack of a better term, and the bitterness losses during fermentation and cooling are staggering. In one instance , an IIPA with a measured level of over 90 IBUs in the wort, was at less than 60 at the end of fermentation.

Another thing to consider is that a lot of your calculated bitterness is in your flavor and, to a lesser extent, aroma additions. But you are not adding hops at those times for bitterness. Adding 50 BUs of flavor hops probably isn't going to increase the amount of bitterness in your beer, because you will already have achieved the maximum solubility with your first addition, but you WILL achieve a "punch in the mouth" level of hop flavor. The same premise applies to aroma hops.

I hope this makes sense and isn't too "Fredrik-y" for you.

(Message edited by Doug J on February 02, 2007)
Malam cerevisiam faeceus in cathedram stercoris
 

Dan Listermann
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Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 01:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, are you saying that alpha acid is lost during fermentation? I could see aroma and maybe flavor, but bitterness would be surprising.

Dan

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Doug J
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Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 01:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, there is no doubt about it. And furthermore, the losses are even more dramatic at typical homebrewing brew sizes (5-10 gallons).

I have been testing and charting in an amazingly geekish way for the past 4 weeks and losses of 40 IBUs in a 10 gallon brew during fermentation are not at all uncommon.

I have only been testing IIPAs, so I can't say that losses are as dramatic for lower IBU beers, but it's been pretty astonishing work lately.

I'll start a thread on it when I've put together more information. Hell maybe I'll write an article on it and become famous.
Malam cerevisiam faeceus in cathedram stercoris
 

Dan Listermann
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Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The various IBU formulas are based on the bitterness of the finished product. Maybe the utilization factor is not just a function of gravity effecting isomerzation but also a function of the wort fermenting and losing bitterness which might be related to gravity.

Any theories about where the alpha acid goes during fermentation?

(Message edited by listermann on February 03, 2007)

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Chumley
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Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 10:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmmm...would seem a bit silly to develop a second theory about a first theory, before the first theory was demonstrated to be true (which could be done via the tests that Doug has done).

Of course, I could be completely wrong about this.
 

Dan Listermann
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Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug seems very confident in his findings but, of course, I am very sorry to have jumped ahead of the "proper" procedure. It is my idiocy acting up again. Thanks for pointing it out, Gunnar.

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Denny Conn
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Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I recently brewed a split batch to compare FWH with a a 60 min. addition. Same wort, split inot 2 5 gal. batches. One batch got 2 oz. Cascade as FWH, the other got 2 oz. Cascade as a 60 min. addition. The beers are just finishing aging and carbing at this point. I'll send some to Jamil and he will organize a tasting in CA. I'll do a tasting here. Both will be blind triangle tastings and we won't tell the tasters what we're tasting for so that won't influence them. The plan is to get both batches analyzed for IBU level and various hop compounds.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

The Jolly Brewer
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Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like an interesting experiment Denny.

Just out of interest, how long did the FWH get? did you collect the wort in one vessel then split between 2 boiling vessels? Add the FWH to one and switch on the heat etc?

Just interested to know the variables in production.
 

Denny Conn
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Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I collected the wort in a 2 qt. pitcher as it ran off and divided it equally. Due to the extra time it took to sparge a 10 gal. batch compared to the 5 gal. I usually do, the FWH were in the wort longer than they usually are before coming to a boil. IIRC, somewhere around 45 min. when my average is more like 20.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Jim O'Conner
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Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 08:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny,

Were those the only hop additions?
Jim
 

Denny Conn
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Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 06:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yep. We didn't want anything else to influence perception. They're kinda boring beers, but they were brewed for experimentation, not necessarily drinking. Once I get them tasted and analyzed, I'm gonna dry hop 'em so they're a bit more fun to drink.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Joakim Ruud
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Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, really looking forward to hearing the results from this!

It seems like you and JZ each have your "thing that you don't believe in", which the other guy taking the opposite view :-) With him it's FWH, and with you it's decoction. Very interesting to see two such accomplished brewers have such different takes on these subjects! :-)
For to accuse requires less eloquence, such is man's nature, than to
excuse; and condemnation, than absolution, more resembles justice.
-Hobbes, Leviathan
 

Guy C
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Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As Doug has noted, I've also seen data from a local brewery which supports a significant loss of IBU's between post-boil wort IBU levels and post-fermentation IBU levels in finished beer. If you know of a brewery that tests IBU's or has sent samples for testing in the past, I'm confident the data will confirm it. One major reason is yeast adsorption of hop bitterness and the subsequent removal of much of that yeast and trub.

http://brewingtechniques.com/library/backissues/issue2.1/miller.html
 

Joakim Ruud
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Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 08:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's a given, isn't it? Haven't anybody ever tasted their cooled wort? Incredibly bitter! Much, much more bitter than the finished beer.
For to accuse requires less eloquence, such is man's nature, than to
excuse; and condemnation, than absolution, more resembles justice.
-Hobbes, Leviathan
 

Guy C
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Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Based on some of the comments I read in this thread, it didn't seem to be a given to me. I was just adding another datapoint (actual data which I don't have access to at the moment v. subjective personal sensory data), which supports the idea that there is not just a small loss in IBU from wort to finished beer, but a very dramatic loss in IBU, specifically in the case of uber-hoppy beers.