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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2007 * Archive through May 09, 2007 * Sour beers - why boil, just pitch yeast? < Previous Next >

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Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 456
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.53.99
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 03:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I finally got around to sampling my test on making Berliners from all grain in January.

I mashed in with the hops - 6# barley, 6# wheat malt for 10g. Sparged light and mixed in boiler. 1.033. Ran 5g straight to the carboy with Kolsch yeast (NOT BOILED). Heated the other 5g in the boiler up to 190F and let set for 10 minutes, chill, and add kolsch and 1/2g lactic starter (1 month old).


Feb transfer @ 2wks - The heated one is dead on and progressing nicely. I know this will win ribbons as it is better than my other attempts which have. 1.004. pH 3.3.

The unheated one was 1.000, pH 3.6, and strong with brett aromas, tasted like water. Not sour. Panicing, I added some of the dregs of the heated batch to this beer.

March bottling - heated one is very sour, added more lactic acid from the bottle. Never hurts. The unheated one is not that sour, added even more.

Yesterday - heated is dead on. The unheated one is spritzier, with faint brett and not quite as sour. I think Paul is correct on this. The unheated beer is easier to drink, although I prefer the heated one.

Both good beers, although draining straight from the mash is not something I would have thought would be drinkable. Not sure if it could take a ribbon in Berliner, but have to see.
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 2742
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Too bad you can't enter 2 in the same category in a competition. Or do like some folks I've known and let you wife/twin brother/or dog enter the second one.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1223
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 07:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

[Somewhat OT]

I went to a tasting a couple weeks ago of sour beers new to the US market. It included a little lecture and Q&A on each from the importing company's president (the importer's headquarters are nearby). So we got a lot of info on the current state of sour beers in Europe. Some was pretty surprising, like that most of the new craft brewers in Italy are making sour beers and that they are considerably more innovative than the Belgians. (Indeed, half the beers we tasted were Italian.)

The first beer we tasted was a new Berliner. I already knew that Schultheiss had stopped making Berliners. The importer claimed that Kindl will soon stop as well. Faced with the possibility that Berliners would only be brewed in America, he convinced Dr. Fritz Breim at Weihenstephan, who has researched historical Berliner recipes and processes, to start making batches for export to the US. This is just available now as "1809", representing the year of the recipe replicated.

It was definitely not what we think of as a Berliner and would win no medals in a comp. First off, it has 5% abv, twice as strong as Kindl. Second, it was made with Weihenstephan wheat yeast and had a load of banana esters. Third, it had very little head retention, looking almost like a champagne.

If Kindl does, in fact, stop making Berliner, we will be faced with a couple interesting questions. Like, if the Weihenstephan Institute, with all its authority, says "this is what Berliner is supposed to taste like", will the BJCP guidelines have to change to accomodate? Or is Breim just wrong, and are the 25 or so US breweries currently making Berliners the true keepers of the style?
"Cornbread and butter beans and you across the table,
Eatin' beans and makin' love as long as I am able,
Hoein' corn and cotton too and when the day is over,
Ride a mule you crazy fool and love again all over."
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1224
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, I should add that "1809" is made according to Andrew's "heated" technique: pasteurized, cooled, and pitched with a Lacto starter. There was no hint of Brett.
"Cornbread and butter beans and you across the table,
Eatin' beans and makin' love as long as I am able,
Hoein' corn and cotton too and when the day is over,
Ride a mule you crazy fool and love again all over."
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6948
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Tuesday, April 17, 2007 - 09:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's sad to hear that "the champagne of the north," as Napoleon called it, may soon be a historical relic. Berliner weisse is hardly my ordinary pint, but it's difficult to think of a style that makes a better summer refresher. To my palate it should be straight-ahead crisp and sour; I wouldn't care at all for the banana/clove character of a hefeweizen in this style.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 457
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.53.99
Posted on Wednesday, April 18, 2007 - 08:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh crap. Well I guess its one of those styles that lives in memory now practically. 90% of US microbrews are not available in most states. I live in the Midwest and most of the best stuff is rare or never.

Thanks Paul for the idea of just running one into the carboy. I was pretty hesitant on that, but figured I always had 5g of good beer to fall back on.

Hey Vance, I think you can put in 2 beers into the same category, well at least for the competitions that I enter. I do this often as I make 10g batches and never like using the same yeast. I really tire of that much beer on the same yeast.
 

tim roth
Advanced Member
Username: Hopdude

Post Number: 520
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 12.206.8.165
Posted on Tuesday, April 24, 2007 - 04:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm not making up stories here.
Paul Hayslett ...... IS THE Quintessential Berliner Weisse brewer! Bar none!
Clean, light, clear, tasty and crisp bier! cheers,tim
You know I'm on the level because, my bubble is in the middle.