Topics Topics Help/Instructions Help Edit Profile Profile Member List Register  
Search Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Visit The Brewery's sponsor!
Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2007 * Archive through August 04, 2007 * Calculate fwh & mh ibu's? < Previous Next >

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  ClosedClosed: New threads not accepted on this page        

Author Message
 

mark taylor
Member
Username: Marktaylo

Post Number: 128
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 63.64.127.15
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there a std formula for calculating the IBU's that come from first wort hopping and mash hopping? I regularly do these early additions now because of the great additional flavor but would like to be able to include the IBU's in my recipe notes.
thanks
mark
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4621
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 07:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I tried a 100% mash hopped beer that produced about only 20% the amount of bitterness expected had the beer been hopped conventionally.

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

mark taylor
Member
Username: Marktaylo

Post Number: 129
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 63.64.127.15
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 08:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Dan, but what I'm looking for is a formula to calculate the ibu's.
mark
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 55
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Mark,

See if you can find a copy of the Jan-Feb 2001 Zymurgy rag.

That issue had some details

Also... The March 2001 edition of BYO
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Mike A.
Intermediate Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 316
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 08:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FWH adjustment is generally said to be -65%. That means it's the same bittering as adding hops 2/3 of the way through the boil (at 20 min. for a 60 min. boil).
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 56
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What Mike A said...

My understanding also... DeClerck talks about Hop utilization also

(Message edited by skotrat on July 23, 2007)
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2614
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I use relative additions of 20min for FWH and 3min for MH.

After many experiments, I am of the opinion that mash hopping is basically a waste of hops that could be better used elsewhere (plus then I can't make dog cookies).

FWHing on the other hand is a very good thing!
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4622
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The batch I made was hopped to a theoretical 200 IBU using the usual 60 minute boil. It measured around 40 IBU IIRC ( thanks Doug J )

Dan

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Steve Funk
Intermediate Member
Username: Tundra45

Post Number: 371
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 209.216.190.125
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I believe IBU calculators only give a ROUGH approximation of what is really there. Here's my anecdotal evidence: I brewed a one-barrel batch of double IPA earlier this year with a couple of my brewing buddies. One of them was a brewer at Full Sail and took a sample of our beer to have it analyzed in their lab. Results: Promash calculated 94 IBU, Reciperator calculated 102 IBU and the lab result clocked in at a scant 67 IBU.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 7496
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 72.39.68.9
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 11:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm in complete agreement with Hophead about mash hopping--basically a waste of good hops. FWH are an entirely different matter, however.

Steve, I'm not terribly surprised about the IBUs in your DIPA. There's a decided decline in utilization at both higher gravities and higher levels of dissolved isomerized alpha acids. I recall brewing Sister Star of the Sun with both the amount of bittering hops specified in the recipe (134 IBUs IIRC) and cutting the amount back to a calculated value of 86 IBUs. I couldn't really tell any difference; I suspect the true value might have been about 80, which may well be the limit for my taste buds anyway.
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 61
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Monday, July 23, 2007 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mash Hopping smells really nice though...

Still a waste
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Bob Wall
Advanced Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 979
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 139.76.128.71
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 12:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can anybody tell me in two sentences or less the actual difference between FWH and 60 minute hops? I have always wondered if it makes any difference at all.
"If ignorance is bliss, this lesson would appear to be a deliberate attempt on your part to deprive me of happiness, the pursuit of which is my unalienable right according to the Declaration of Independence. I therefore assert my patriotic prerogative not to know this material. I'll be out on the playground."
-- Calvin
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 63
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 12:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FWH are not bittering hops...

FWH are equal to flavor hops
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 7498
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 72.39.68.9
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 02:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

By steeping in the hot mash runoff prior to the boil, FWH contribute more flavor (and fewer IBUs) than hops added at or soon after the beginning of the boil.
 

Little Dipper
Intermediate Member
Username: Littledipper

Post Number: 256
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 69.221.230.174
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 02:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A recent episode of the Basic Brewing Radio podcast discussed hop calculation compared to actual IBU values. They had like 6 beers analyzed by one guy, and another guy used all the various calculations (rager, tinseth, daniels, etc.) to calculate the IBUs based on the recipes for each. The results were suprising if not disappointing (all over the map). It almost makes you want to throw in the towel when it comes to making estimates.

The bottom line, though, is to use one formula and stick with it. Then adjust according to your tastes to discover what your range of calculated IBUs tastes like to you.
 

Bob Wall
Advanced Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 982
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 139.76.128.71
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 03:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"By steeping in the hot mash runoff prior to the boil, FWH contribute more flavor (and fewer IBUs) than hops added at or soon after the beginning of the boil."

Where do the IBU's go? and why does the flavor get left behind? This seems counter-intuitive to the effects that normal hop additions have where the longer you boil them the more bitter the effect, and the shorter you boil, the more flavor you get.

Does some voodoo occur if you slowly heat your hops as opposed to dropping them in boiling wort?
"If ignorance is bliss, this lesson would appear to be a deliberate attempt on your part to deprive me of happiness, the pursuit of which is my unalienable right according to the Declaration of Independence. I therefore assert my patriotic prerogative not to know this material. I'll be out on the playground."
-- Calvin
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 7500
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 72.39.68.9
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 03:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.franklinbrew.org/brewinfo/fwh.html

Bob, you can call it "voodoo." I'd prefer to say it's incompletely understood but real nonetheless.
 

Brad Petit
Intermediate Member
Username: Voodoobrew

Post Number: 261
Registered: 06-2005
Posted From: 71.68.206.152
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

" Promash calculated 94 IBU, Reciperator calculated 102 IBU and the lab result clocked in at a scant 67 IBU."

I've suspected for a little while now that my brewing program is greatly over-calculating the IBUs in my beers... but then, maybe that's just tolerance...
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4625
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.27.158.31
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"FWH are equal to flavor hops"

That deserves some clarification.

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

dhacker
Advanced Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 961
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 208.63.161.246
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 11:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So if FWHs contribute more flavor and less IBUs, and the "soak" time can be quite variable do to procedural differences, is it just a crap shoot/ trial and error methodology to get you where you want to be as regards the flavor additions?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 7502
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 72.39.68.9
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FWH are not as inexact as you would think, dhacker, especially if you are reasonably consistent with your procedure, such factors as the sparge time. Yes, I'm sure there is some variability in the bittering calculation, but the range is on the order of 2-3 IBUs, not enough to be worried about. And the flavor, for styles that emphasize hops, is actually quite consistent.

For example, I use FWH in place of the flavor addition in Sister Star of the Sun. I'm extremely happy with the results.
 

Dave Witt
Advanced Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 988
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 71.194.189.87
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In my experience, flavor from FWH seems to be more stable over time than a standard 20-30 min addition.
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 328
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 198.51.251.205
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here's the theory I've heard about why first wort hopping acts the way it does. I have no ability to test this theory, but maybe somebody on this list can prove/disprove it:

1. FWH contribute very little bitterness because the alpha acids bind to the hot break and precipitate out of solution.

2. The runoff from the mash tun contains a little dissolved oxygen. This binds to some of the flavor compounds in the hop oils, creating non-volatile flavor compounds that can't be boiled off.

3. Although I haven't heard (before reading the the previous post) that FWH produces a more shelf-stable flavor, that makes sense if the compounds are nonvolatile and already oxidized.

Has anybody else heard this about the oxygen in runoff and the binding of alpha acids to hot break? Does anybody with more chemistry knowledge than me (by which I mean, "some chemistry knowledge") know if this makes sense?
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 329
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 198.51.251.205
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Of course, now that I think about it, I can think of an experiment to test theory #1.

If hot break reduces bitterness, then adding hops for the last 60 minutes of a 90 minute boil (i.e. after much of the hot break has already precipitated) should result in more bitterness than adding hops for all 90 minutes.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4628
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Am I allowed to admit that I am a FWH skeptic?

I have been FWHing for a long time with the impression that the longer the hops were in the boil, the more bitterness that could be extracted. I do not do it for flavor reasons. Reading the above, you would think that my beers would be low on bitterness and have a lot of hop flavor. My longest running recipe is mild ale. It is a style that is very bitterness sensitive due to the style's low level. Further much hop flavor would be seen as a style defect. I don't have bitterness level problems and my milds have never been judged as overly hoppy.

I am getting ready to crush the grain for a 15 gallon batch as I type!

(Message edited by listermann on July 24, 2007)

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Dave Witt
Advanced Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 989
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 71.194.189.87
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David, the way you explain it is the same way I've heard it explained. But it is still an unproven hypothetical theory.
 

Mike A.
Intermediate Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 319
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 03:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, have you ever tested your skepticism by brewing the same recipe and replacing bittering hops with FWH?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 7504
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 72.39.68.9
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think Mike A. means flavor hops rather than bittering.

Dan, I would only advocate FWH for styles in which hop flavor is a desired characteristic. Mild ale would not be among them.

(Message edited by BillPierce on July 24, 2007)
 

Little Dipper
Intermediate Member
Username: Littledipper

Post Number: 257
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 206.114.61.199
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 03:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm sure some of you are aware that Denny Conn and Jamil Z. recently conducted an experiment that's supposed to be appearing in Zymurgy that addresses this discussion. They're both being pretty type lipped about the results so far, but the hints that Jamil's given about it on his show have been that it's somewhat a waste of time to FWH. I suppose we'll have to wait and see. . .
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4629
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike A. I make all my milds by adding the only hop addition as the wort comes to boil. This is FWH, right?

Bill, you are right about mild ales if FWH theory holds up, but I make all my milds this way and I don't see the things the theory is supposed to produce. This is the origin of my skepticism.

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Mike A.
Intermediate Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 321
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No Bill, I really meant bittering. If I'm reading Dan's post right he is under the impression that FWH stay in the boil longer and impart more bitterness.
 

Mike A.
Intermediate Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 322
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 128.173.15.155
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 03:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I wonder if you would notice a difference in your milds by waiting for the wort to boil then add the hops.

I don't know if this would make any difference, but I always add FWH to the first runnings out of the mash tun, before the sparge and before heating the kettle.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1202
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great discussion. Some random thoughts:

I can only offer my own anecdotal conclusions based on my own experience. I find FWH-ing to produce a nice, bright hop flavor and I believe it is more pervasive and stable over time. I have never done a split batch to test this theory, but I know what happens to my own hoppy beers and to similar commercial beers over time when they are hopped using the traditional, 20-and-less-minute addition(s) vice being FWH-ed.

I wonder if the IBU's are empirically less, or if it's just that the perceived bitterness is less due to chemical mechanisms that are not understood.

I FWH-ed an all-Columbus pale ale a couple of years ago. The hop profile, both in bitterness and flavor, was almost overwhelming. I agree with the conventional wisdom that FWH-ing is most appropriate with low-alpha, "flavor and aroma" cultivars.
 

Bob Wall
Advanced Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 986
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 71.204.15.75
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"chemical mechanisms that are not understood"

Ahhh, voodoo!


"If ignorance is bliss, this lesson would appear to be a deliberate attempt on your part to deprive me of happiness, the pursuit of which is my unalienable right according to the Declaration of Independence. I therefore assert my patriotic prerogative not to know this material. I'll be out on the playground."
-- Calvin
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4630
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, I used to do that because that is the way I was taught, but I do not recall noticing a change when I switched, but this has been years ago.

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6384
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FWH are indeed bittering hops. The conventional wisdom is that FWH equal the same IBUs as a 20 min. addition. I'll give away a revelation from an article I'm writing...when I made a split batch using only 60 min. hops in 1 and only FWH in the other, I sent them to 2 different labs for analysis. The FWH came back with a higher IBU measurement then the 60 min. beer in both analyses. The interesting part was that different hop components were in each beer. Unlike Jamil, I don't consider FWH to be a waste of time...it's just another tool in the tool box to be used in certain situations.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Little Dipper
Intermediate Member
Username: Littledipper

Post Number: 259
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 206.114.61.199
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, will that article be in the next issue? Looking forward to that one!
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4631
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Denny, would it be true to say that your opinion is that FWH _is_ bittering hops and that FWH do _not_ equal flavor hops, at least for the tests you have performed?

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 65
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan... You forgot the bobber on your troll
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

dhacker
Advanced Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 965
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 72.4.22.214
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,

Maybe it is voodoo since few seem to know how it really works and what it actually does!
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 66
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From Jeff Renner...

On Sat, 27 Feb 1999, Jeff
Renner wrote:

> At 7:13 AM -0500 2/27/99, PBLoomis at aol.com wrote:
> >In a message dated 2/26/99 9:40:41 AM EST, nerenner at umich.edu writes:
> >
> ><<>>
> >
> > What is "first wort hopping"? I'm interested in any technique that
> >might
> >help me preserve the hop flavor in my Elizabethan beer. Scotti
>
> BWH is a technique developed around the turn of the century in Germany.
> About half of your usual late addition hops are added to the first wort
> collected during lautering (runoff) where they steep (typically at around
> 170F, or 76C in big breweries, HBers have to add a bit of heat to keep them
> steeping due to greater heat loss). These first wort hops add amazing
> flavor, some aroma, and, despite being boiled with the usual bittering
> hops, do not give an *apparent* increase in bitterness. Taste panels have
> reported a more pleasant bitterness, not higher, than conventionally hopped
> beers, in spite of an actual higher level of isomerized alpha acids (IBUs).
>
> This technique was "rediscovered" in Germany in the last decade and was
> introduced to the homebrewing community by George Fix. While I am not
> aware of any records indicating it was used historically in the US, it
> seems reasonable that it was, since US lager brewers of a century ago were
> largely German trained or trained by German trained brewers. While it is
> not authentic, so far as I know, for Elizabethan beers, beers of that time
> were hopped in the mash, I believe, which might give similar results.
>
> For an excellent summary by Dave Draper of this useful technique, see
> http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer/1stwort.html . Please note that Dave's email
> address has changed.
>
> Jeff
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 4970
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In the realm of real vs. calculated IBUs, here's a thread I started on Skot's BBS after Doug J analyzed one of my barleywines:

http://www.skotrat.com/skotrat/webboard/viewtopic.php?t=404

Some nice insights from the late Mr. Lang in that thread...
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2615
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

DL, FWHing works MUCH better if you add the hops to the brew kettle prior to lautering. This lets them soak in the 160-170F range and is where the 'magic' happens from my experiences.

Adding them 'right before boiling' will not have the FWH effect; more like just an early bittering addition. You WILL see a big difference if you do your only addition as mentioned above.

David, I would take the other side of the fence on the 90min vs 60min hop bitterness, but if you do an experiment let us know!
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6385
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 06:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Little dipper, it won't be done for a month or so and published after that. Don't expect to see it before fall.

"your opinion is that FWH _is_ bittering hops and that FWH do _not_ equal flavor hops"...nope, I couldn't say that at all, Dan.

Chumley, I'm not sure your results say as much about FWH as they do about how the various pieces of software calc IBUs.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4633
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HH, I add the hops as soon as there in something in the kettle to add them to. Adding them 'right before boiling' would not be much different than adding them after boiling.

Denny, could you elaborate?

(Message edited by listermann on July 24, 2007)

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6386
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, a sizeable majority of the tasters in a blind triangle tasting found the FWH beers to have more hop flavor than the 60 min. only beers. More than that will have to wait til I get the article done.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4634
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What you say may well be true at some level, but would you want to go so far as to say that FWH are equal to flavor hops?

(Message edited by listermann on July 24, 2007)

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2617
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 07:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My bad DL, I must have misunderstood your earlier comment...

"I make all my milds by adding the only hop addition as the wort comes to boil."

Surprised you don't see a difference. Have you tried using a more profound hop (C-hops), or mostly milder hops (willamette,saaz,fuggle)?

DC, I would be shocked to hear otherwise (FWH more flavor). Good luck on yer article!
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6387
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I didn't test that so I can't give you a definitive answer. My personal subjective assessment is that FWH deliver more flavor than the traditional 20 min. flavor hop addition. But on that, I'm guessing like everyone else.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 68
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

geesh Dan... Stop the Blatant Troll and move on...
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6388
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 07:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott, if that's a troll, how are we supposed to have discussions? I consider it a valid, if slightly leading, question.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4635
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 07:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HH, my mild ale is made with a single addition of Fuggles.

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4637
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, let's discuss testing for FWH verses flavor addition. Say the control batch has an ounce of bittering hops added after the start of boil and a single ounce flavor addition at 20 minutes for a total of two ounces keeping the variety the same.

The FWH batch would have an ounce at the beginning of a fly sparge and ounce after boiling for bittering.

While flavor intensity comparisons can be subjective, it would be worth the effort. Also a IBU test could back up your efforts to see if the bitterness really was more or less for FWH.

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6390
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, you're likely on the right track, but I think we need to come up with a better way to make sure other additions aren't somehow influencing the results. Lemme think about it for a while, and maybe see what JZ has to say...he was extremely helpful in designing the other experiment. BTW, if it's a fly sparge, you're goann be the one to have to do it!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 4971
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 08:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jeff Renner's rule of thumb for FWH, which was posted on the HBD some 5-10 years ago, is that 1.5 x FWH = flavor hops for equivalence. So, if you want the same flavor as a 20 min addition of 2 oz. of hops, you would use 3 oz. of same hops as FWH. My experience has been that that rule of thumb pretty much marries with my taste buds.
 

Doug J
Intermediate Member
Username: Doug_j

Post Number: 285
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 207.250.116.151
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 08:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I make all my milds by adding the only hop addition as the wort comes to boil. This is FWH, right?"

To my understanding, this is not FWH. First Wort Hopping means hopping the first wort, which means you add the hops to your boil kettle before starting the runoff. Adding hops just as the boil begins is merely hopping wort, not first wort.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6391
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chumley, I have great respect for your tastebuds, but my experience with my own has taught me to distrust them if I have any kind of preconceived notion of the results. It would be interesting to do a blind triangle tasting on that theory, though.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4638
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, I probably did not phrase that well. I add the hops to the kettle as soon as there is something to add them to from the lauter tun. I also start heating the kettle at the same time. I don't wait until the kettle is full before applying heat.

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 69
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 08:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Over a two year period back a couple 4 years ago I brewed two recipes for a total of 12 times...

6 batches of each

3 of FWH
3 of traditional method brewing

I then used friends and neighbors for my test cases...

For what it is worth out of 23 people (only a couple brewers and none of them knowing what I was up to) roughly 20 folks out of the 23 preferred the non FWH beers.

In the end I found that FWH really had no real practical use in my brewing process.

I also do not believe that the side by side results really proved anything.

Denny... I imagine I could dig through stacks of brewing crap that I have kept since 2001 or 2002 and pass on the data if you think it would be of use
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2618
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

DL, personally, I think it's the fuggles that are throwing off your perception of FWHing. They aren't the best flavoring hop IMHO.

Skot, any chance if the 3 people were hoppy fans and the others were b52 fans? :-) interesting results.
 

Dave Witt
Advanced Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 990
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 71.194.189.87
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 09:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One more thing about FWH...you won't have to worry about flavor hop addition timing. One time during a brew session, me and my buddy were doing a lot of sampling and before we knew it our 20 min flavor hops became a 50 min addition.
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 70
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 09:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Dave, are you saying that FWH are equal to flavor hops?
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Joakim Ruud
Advanced Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 867
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 84.208.75.140
Posted on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeesh, the way the word troll is bandied around here...certain people should maybe take a closer look in the mirror.
For to accuse requires less eloquence, such is man's nature, than to
excuse; and condemnation, than absolution, more resembles justice.
-Hobbes, Leviathan
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4639
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.27.158.31
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Dan, you're likely on the right track, but I think we need to come up with a better way to make sure other additions aren't somehow influencing the results. "

Denny, the basic idea is that both batches get bittering dosages for 60 minutes. The FWH gets hops as the brew kettle fills ( should it be heated as it fills?) The other batch gets a 20 minute flavor addition as conventional brewing does.

I would expect that the FWH batch would be more bitter than the conventional batch as per your results above. If some scaling factor could be arrived at to try to control this, that would be fine with me.

It would seem to me that the effect of FWH would be most pronounced in fly sparging. I am more than willing to do the brewing.

(Message edited by listermann on July 25, 2007)

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

mark taylor
Member
Username: Marktaylo

Post Number: 130
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 63.64.127.15
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My experience with a pale ale that I always have on tap is that the fwh batches do have additional flavor. Thanks for the input here. I shall make the assumption of calculating as if 20min addition for the future.
mark
 

Dave Witt
Advanced Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 991
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 71.194.189.87
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 03:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Skot,

Yes. AFA the beers I usually brew that use flavor additions. I haven't brewed a batch that only used a 20 min addition (no FWH) in so long, I don't remember what the dif is.
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 72
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 01:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Dave
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Joakim Ruud
Advanced Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 869
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 85.166.4.218
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Personally, I'm _really_ looking forward to hearing the results from Denny's and JZ's experiment.
For to accuse requires less eloquence, such is man's nature, than to
excuse; and condemnation, than absolution, more resembles justice.
-Hobbes, Leviathan
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 282
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 146.137.152.38
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 02:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I brewed this beer

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator?group=2&item=2637

five years ago, The "20 minute" hops were actually FWH. To be honnest I didn't notice anything different or magical over the standard 20 minute flavor hop addition (the usual way I brew this beer). Note: I added the hops to an empty boiler and added the wort on top of the hops throughout the sparge.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6392
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott, yeah I'd love to see your data...no hurry, shoot it to me when you have time. I'm especially interested in what you asked the tasters.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 77
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny,

Currently that room is stacked with empty flooring boxes and some stinky old carpet.

That should be out of there today and I will go through my stack of brew logs and stuff.
Support the HBD
Skotrats Homebrew Site
BrewRats Homebrew Club
Skotrats HomeBrew BBS
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6396
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 63.114.138.2
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Scott..no hurry. Don't kill yerself over it!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.