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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2007 * Archive through August 04, 2007 * Too much flavor hops < Previous Next >

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Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 4974
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The FWH thread got me thinking....

I know you can overbitter a beer, especially a low gravity beer, but if you take a standard IPA, say 1.065, can you overflavor it? A standard recipe might call for a 15 minute addition of 2 oz. of hops for 5 gallons....what if that were 4, or even 6 oz.? Or, like bitterness which maxes out around 85 IBUs, is there a point when adding flavor hops that more hops really doesn't matter, or that off flavor like a grassy taste start to occur.

Has anyone tried adding a lot of flavor hops? I think the most I have ever used is 3 oz. per 5 gallons.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 4643
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Years ago, at the second Bloatarian campout, probably in 1989, we made a "Hairy Buffalo" sort of batch. We added so many hops that, when it boiled over, a solid column of hops erupted from the kettle about a foot. Well, maybe that is an exaggeration. It was really cool though. I can't give any figures about how much hops were in it or when they were added, but the beer tasted just fine.

We called the column a "hop erection." Despite trying a couple of times, we have never been able to duplicate the effect.

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 73
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan,

Were those Flavor additions?
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Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2620
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have FWH'd with 8-12oz in the past, and someone (graham??) has FWH'd with 24oz! I may have even copied the picture of the inside of his sanke on that one... hop envy ya know...

I tend to use the majority of my hop additions as flavor, so for me, yes, a LOT of flavor hops...
 

Don Lund
Junior Member
Username: Donlund

Post Number: 89
Registered: 10-2003
Posted From: 71.163.234.67
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a closely related question --

Can addition of a large quantity of hops lead to an astringent mouthfeel, owing to accumulation of tannins from all those hops? (A pro brewer suggested that possibility to me, I had not thought of that before.)
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1206
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I have FWH'd with 8-12oz in the past, and someone (graham??) has FWH'd with 24oz!"

I think that was Geoff Buschur. Certainly not me! I'm a style Nazi.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6393
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First, you have to figure out how to define "too much hop flavor"...I'm skeptical that you can. It's a completely subjective judgment. What's too much hop flavor for one person may not be for another.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2622
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey, atleast it started with a "G"...

Don, technically yes, but I have not witnessed it and I use a lot of hops. I overbittered a beer awhile back (mislabelled warrior hops) and it had a very bitter bite (like alum), which I would not want to repeat, but this was way out of balance on the bittering hops vs OG... in other words, IMHO, you have to try to make it astringent on purpose.

Case in point, SSOS. Ridiculous amounts of hops, but not astringent (to me). Now, if you just added a pound of chinook at 60+min and nothing else, sure, it would be astringent... :-)
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 4976
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's kind what I am asking, Denny...in a hoppy beer, is there such thing as too much hop flavor? I don't think so. In a low hopped beer such as a hefe, then yes.

If your IPA recipe, like SSOS, calls for 2 oz. addition of EKG for flavor, will 8 oz. of EKG make a difference? My gut tells me no, but I really don't know.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6394
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, you can look at it either as too much hop flavor for the style, or too much that it makes the beer unpleasant to drink. Although both are gonna be subjective, it will obviously be much easier to come up with a definite answer if you consider style. Having so much hop flavor that the beer is unpleasant is gonna be REALLY subjective. You can't even look at it as a question of "is the beer balanced?" because, at least to me, a beer doesn't have to be balanced to be tasty. MY gut feeling is that using 8 oz., as opposed to 2 oz., of flavor hops will make a difference, but whether it's a good difference or not is in the glass of the beerholder.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Steve Funk
Intermediate Member
Username: Tundra45

Post Number: 372
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 209.216.175.11
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big hop head, but has anyone tried Golden Valley's IPA? I think this has TOO MUCH hop bitterness and flavor. Think eating a bowl of Chinook hop stew! I found the beer at a well stocked store near Portland, OR in a 22-oz bottle. Anyone else in the PNW tried this hop monster and found it way over the top? I couldn't finish it. BTW, pardon the hyjack.
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1499
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.8.57.16
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, I have used ridiculous amounts of flavor hops in many different ways. When I make my IPAs and APAs I try to get a majority of my bitterness from flavor additions.

This thread has the pictures of my first 24 oz FWH:
http://hbd.org/discus/messages/26895/33406.html
and a review of the beer here:
http://hbd.org/discus/messages/34426/34853.html

And some talk about my IPA that won Bluebonnet (scroll down past the SSOS talk): http://hbd.org/discus/messages/40327/41438.html
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6395
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yep, tried it and loved it...definiitely not too much hop flavor for me. Just proves it's all subjective....
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 75
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Geoff,

Although I believe that you are indeed getting more IBUs from massive flavor additions I do not believe that you are getting a more "bitter" beer.

Since the volatile oils are not breaking down due to the short boil time that these additions have. You are retaining more of the full hop flavor rather than the broken down oils that leave only the "Perceived bitterness" on the palate

Thoughts....?

I have found that in my larger IIPAs when I have an initial 60+ minute bittering hop addition over say 65 IBUs that a nice healthy flavor hop addition of say 35 IBUs really mellows out the harshness of that initial hop addition.

Thoughts?

(Message edited by skotrat on July 25, 2007)
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Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 2820
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 07:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I made Jamil's Evil Twin recipe out of Zymergy a few months ago. It had all the hops added at 20 min and later. 5 oz total of centenial and Amarillo. 40 IBU's to and OG of 1.066 is just way too low for me. If I ever do something like that again I'm going to shoot for at least a B:G ration of .8:1 or higher.

I like the concept and the flavor effect, the recipe was just out of balance to me. Not too much flavor hops though. This thread might just get me thinking enough about it to try a "tweaked" version now.
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1500
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 66.140.33.41
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 04:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott,

You are exactly right, I don't think I could possibly get more bitterness from flavor additions, but I plan on getting the majority of bitterness from flavor additions. So, if I am formulating a hoppy recipe in Promash I will add my flavor hops(FWH or 20 min) until I hit my target IBU. Then I will add my bitter hops to equal roughly 1/2 of the target IBU. So, if the target IBU is 60 I'll get 60 IBU from flavor additions and 30 from bitter additions.

Experience has taught me that flavor hops only produces a subdued bitterness that is missing a dimension. You still need a substantial amount of bitter additions to round out the beer.

This obviously is not an absolute formula, but it's where I start. Grain bill plays a huge role in how I adjust the hops from there.

Answering the OP, I do think there can be too much flavor hops. Without a good malty backbone a beer can quickly become hop tea. Sure, hop tea can taste ok but I ain't putting it on tap.
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 1718
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 217.43.19.233
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 09:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I made an historical IPA a few years ago using an staggering amount of bittering hops as well as later additions and huge amounts of finishing hops.

For the first six months, there was too much bitterness and flavour/aroma. But after that it was sublime and just got better and better.
 

Skotrat
Junior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 76
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Geoff...

I do not believe that you can add too many Flavor hops either personally. I just think that you will throw the balance and drinkability off of the final product. That to me goes against my ultimate goal.

I do believe that you can make a beer overly bitter by using too many 1st addition bittering hops. I have done that a few times.

I, like Jolly made a historical IPA that used massive amounts of bittering hops. It brought an entirely new meaning to the term "Stiff Upper Lip"
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dhacker
Advanced Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 967
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 74.226.89.91
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So, if I am formulating a hoppy recipe in Promash I will add my flavor hops(FWH or 20 min) until I hit my target IBU. Then I will add my bitter hops to equal roughly 1/2 of the target IBU. So, if the target IBU is 60 I'll get 60 IBU from flavor additions and 30 from bitter additions.

I kinda put this into practice on an ESB recipe I just finished in Promash. Mostly cut down the first addition hops and made up the IBUs with the 15 min, addition. I'm hoping the resulting flavor will offset the fact that I'll end up using almost twice as many hops to achieve the same IBUs I'd get if I did more addition at 60 minutes. . .

Cheapskates like me are usually dollar foolish when it comes to brewing!
 

Geoff Buschur
Senior Member
Username: Avmech

Post Number: 1501
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 208.8.57.16
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 03:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am cheap too, but when you order hops from Hopsdirect.com and you get 2# for $8 you start coming up with creative ways to use up all your hops.
"I've been drunk for 14 years...my judgment isn't what it used to be."
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2623
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 06:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Agreed on that one GB... I still have 3 unopened ~20oz silver bags from last year that I am trying to use! I think it may be what turned me onto more FWH and 20-10min hop additions.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 476
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think alot of this has to do with water type.

I have made SSOS and RyeIpa (and did this one again and have it as-is and as a porter on tap) and they come out about undrinkable. I love IPAs and double IPAs, but there is something in this 9.5pH Shaked Lime water that just produces a grass bite so fierce that no one in the club (much less a stardard micro beer drinker) even drink a second glass.

The interesting thing is that using the same recipe and adding a 1/2# of choc, roast & 80L crystal to make it a porter is a very wonderful beer. Some would say the ibus and hop rate are just too high for a rye porter, but I'd say they could be higher. But for the RyeIpa without the extra dark grains its too much. Its the water.
 

Wayne Pratt
New Member
Username: Wayne_in_winstonsalem

Post Number: 23
Registered: 05-2007
Posted From: 152.17.62.16
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting, Andrew,

Darn it. As much as I wanted to NOT have to worry about water, I think its time for me to add that dimension to my brewing expertise.

Up until now, I've not paid much attention to my water profile. But with the move to NC, and much softer water, I think it is needed now.

But I'll still RDWHAHB while I work out the numbers...

Wayne
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2629
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One word.

"Gypsum"

Move along....
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 477
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nay, too much of that Gypsum stuff already in there. Water tastes sharply dry already. No one here that is good brewer uses that stuff in more than minute amounts. It produces a rough taste quickly.

Wayne - I would not worry about until you come across a problem. You guys have a much different water profile than we do in the midwest.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2630
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Andrew, if you say so. If your water ph is 9.5 then adding gypsum in an IPA is recommended (soft water too), though it kinda sounds like you already are...

Not sure what "water tastes sharply dry" means?
 

Christopher Allen
Junior Member
Username: Treeboy

Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2007
Posted From: 130.39.215.216
Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have water with a high pH as well (not sure what it is exactly) and here this is apparently due to a high bicarbonate content. For pale beers, I have to purchase reverse osmosis water and back add salts. If not, the bicarbonates make for a very astringent pale ale.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 480
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hophead - it really depends on what else is in the water. It actually will raise the pH here and fight with the mash pH.

I used to the gypsum until I started polling brewers whose pale ales were much superior to mine (becuase I thougth mine were tolerable at best) and found out that they were using acids/ro water/back adding salts (as Christopher says). Acids and other salts are ok without the ro water, but you have to cut the hops down toward the British level of hoppiness.

Boulevard Pale Ale is a good example of our water and the type of pale ale without ro water.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2631
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
Posted on Thursday, August 02, 2007 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Never heard gypsum could raise ph in brewing, and I usually add it to boil (for ipas) as my mash ph is ok.

Anywho, I add a lot of sub-30 minute additions of hops, and I like the effects, ymmv.