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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2007 * Archive through September 25, 2007 * Roselare culture < Previous Next >

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Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 488
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anyone ever used this?

I am going to give it a shot and follow the zymurgy winners red recipe.

I was thinking about making 10g with 5g the same as the winning recipe, and upping the 2d carboy to 1.080+ and adding cherry puree into the secondary. The second will be a Rodenbach "Alexanders" for those that can remember that great beer no longer produced.

I usually do Berliners on Wy Lactic and it works perfect. With brett and without.

I have used Wy Lambic Blend and not been really happy with it. Most of those attempts are aspirin dry and fail to com. It has good flavors and aromas (right on style) but the bone dry aftertaste I get from this blend I don't like. Done 3 batches and I won't do another.

Is roselare going to be different from Wy Lambic Blend?
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 2869
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.49.148.10
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm curious too as I just pitched a pack into a Flander red recipe from Paul Zocco that was in Zymergy. It sure doesn't "activate" as quickly as regular yeast. The recipe calls for pitching it along with London ale yeast followed with an addition of Brett. after a couple of months.

The 2 blends both seem to have lactic and brett. strains but the lambic blend also mentions sherry yeast. Wonder if that's what is giving you the bone dry finish? No mention of that in the roselare blend. Not a very good description of exactly what is in it though.

http://www.wyeastlab.com/vss-2q2007.cfm
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1324
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've only tried the blend once. I've been brewing a batch of Red every year in the fall and it isn't available then. I brewed an extra batch this spring and tried it. But I haven't checked on it since I racked it back in May. Back then, about 3 weeks after pitching, it was very dry with absolutely no sour or funk. But it has developed a nice, thick crust since then, so I assume something is happening.

I, too, have found that the Lambic Blend gets bitingly dry over time. Makes the driest Cantillon seem sweet. The only solution is blending. I've got a sort-of solera thing going for my Reds. (It's just a carboy, not a barrel, so I don't get the oxidation/evaporation part.) I draw off about 2 gallons to blend with 3 gallons of a 4 - 6 month old batch for bottling, then I rack the remainder of the newer batch into the old for aging. It's the only way I've found to get the flavor without a sour stomach.

My Roselare batch is probably ready for blending, whenever I get the time. I'll let you know if it tastes better/different.

Was "Alexanders" brewed at 1.080 or was a smaller beer soured and blended with a bigger one? I've heard people say that beer won't sour once the ABV gets above 8% or so. I've never done the experiment, so I don't know for sure.
Patriotic dissent is not a luxury. It is essential for the proper functioning of democracy and free society.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 490
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Wednesday, August 29, 2007 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So you drink that mixed and bottled batch immediatly? I would guess so.

I also wondered if it was the sherry yeast in there. I have heard that stuff ferments to 20%.

I don't know about it at 8%, you see some brown recipes in Wild Beers that go up that high, but most are using Brett yeast or Brett yeast as a post fermentor. If so, then I'd aim for 1.075 or something.
 

mikel
Member
Username: Mikel

Post Number: 133
Registered: 02-2001
Posted From: 4.246.219.124
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 02:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I brewed a 10 gallon batch of sour red on 5/27/06.
Fermented with US-05 from 1.053 down to 1.014. Racked to a 10 gallon corny keg and pitched 1 pack of roselare. 8 months later it was down to 1.009 and had very little sour character but a pronounced "dill pickle" aroma! 2 months later I removed 2 quarts and added 2 quarts of sour cherry concentrate, supposed to equal 40# of sour cherries. This brought the gravity up to something like 1.024 and that quickly fermented down to 1.012. I roughly calculate the ABV to presently be at about 7.4%. As of now it seems more sour but not quite what I expect. So, I pitched 2 vials of WLP655 sour mix. Still waiting?
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1326
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 04:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Andrew, yes, I let the blended bottles carb up and drink it immediately. The younger 3/5s of the blend is already 6 months old at that point and the older 2/5s is years old, on average. So why not?

(Actually, I figure I'd better drink it immediately. If it keeps fermenting whatever sugars remain in the younger portion, I could end up with bottle bombs. Hasn't happened yet, but it is a possibility.)
Patriotic dissent is not a luxury. It is essential for the proper functioning of democracy and free society.
 

Michael Tonsmeire
New Member
Username: Oldsock

Post Number: 7
Registered: 03-2007
Posted From: 146.142.39.23
Posted on Thursday, August 30, 2007 - 07:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I recently bottled my first batch using the Roeselare blend (I used a toasted oak chair leg in the mouth of the carboy, as popularized by Raj Apte). The recipe I used was based on Jamil’s. The OG was 1.064 and WL530 got it down to around 1.024. The secondary lasted for 11 months at a constant 64 degrees, and the FG was around 1.009 (~7% abv).

After just 3 weeks in the bottle the beer tastes very good (nice complex flavor, with some oak, caramel, cherry and lactic acid), but it is nowhere near as sour as a Rodenbach or La Folie (absent is any acetic character).

I only bottled half the batch, the rest is aging with 4 lbs of blackberries (hopefully the acids and sugars in the fruit will give that half some more sourness). The piece of oak I used in that batch is currently being used to inoculate a Belgian Pale.

I have heard of people getting more sourness when repitching the blend once or twice (more times than that and you risk it getting too sour).
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 491
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Friday, August 31, 2007 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting results guys. Thanks for the info.

Sounds like the Roselare strain belongs in the primary unless I want a subdued culture. I might just put it into the primary of one 5g and leave it out of the other and then move some into the secondary carboy later. Get a subdued one and one that jumps out.

When I use Wy4335 Lacto I usually culture it up for a month prior to its usage to make sure it can keep up with the dry yeast.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 495
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 07:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I saw Jamil's recipe (never heard of him) beucase a friend of mine gave it to me while drinking beer at his house last night. Jamil calls for the introduction of the Roselare culture AFTER fermenting with regular ale yeast.

So now I know what to do.

One carboy gets the culture from the start as intended per Wyeast. The other carboy gets Notthingham. At the end of two weeks I will transfer the first and not clean the hose/racking cane and then transfer the second one thereby infecting it as well. Maybe add a cup from the first one too for luck. This is probably what Jamil's recipe in effect does - just dump the smackpack, no staring the culture, into secondary. A very weak start on the bugs for a more drinkable beer.

If the first is aspirin dry and about undrinkable - well then I am done with following their instructions on sour beers.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 496
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 07:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For those taht don't have the recipe see Zymurgy last issue sour beer winner.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 7593
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's a good plan, Bales. Let us know how the experiment turns out. The evidence I have from my limited experience with "wild brewing" and the reports of others is that blending is likely the best course to achieve the desired balance of flavor and sourness.

I'm sometimes a little skeptical of the "cult of Jamil," but he's obviously a talented and enthusiastic brewer with something to contribute.
 

Michael Tonsmeire
New Member
Username: Oldsock

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2007
Posted From: 146.142.39.23
Posted on Wednesday, September 05, 2007 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not sure if it is the same as the one in Zymurgy, but here is the Jamil recipe I based mine off of: http://beerdujour.com/Recipes/Jamil/The_Jamil_Show_-_Flanders_Red_Ale.html

I was less than impressed by the Red/Amber of his I made, but this one is really tasty.

I’ll be really interested to hear how the split batch turns out. You may consider doing something to give them some oxygen exposure, for example aging the beer in plastic or wood for part of the time, or using a piece of plastic, vinyl, or wood to transfer oxygen through the stopper and into the beer.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 497
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 03:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Michael: from what I have seen reading, our carboys and stoppers expose beer to more 02 than a barrel does? Those numbers I got from the Wild Brews book seem to show that a plastic bucket is like 100x more so than a large barrel. It looks like the plain stopper is the same as large barrel for contact time?

That is the recipe from AHA winner as well, I will follow it except got no munich so I will use some pale malt instead and sprinkle in some home roast. ;) His eff is pretty bad.

Come bottling time - I will probably bottle 1/2 of each and then blend and bottle 2 cases blended.
 

Michael Tonsmeire
New Member
Username: Oldsock

Post Number: 9
Registered: 03-2007
Posted From: 146.142.39.23
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 06:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What type of stopper are you using? I have seen numbers for silicone stoppers that put them close to regular wine barrels, but I don’t remember seeing the numbers for a standard gum rubber stopper. Did I just miss that info in Wild Brews?

Plastic buckets certainly let in more oxygen than wood, but I have heard of people getting pretty good results with them, particularly when only used to age the beer for a few months. With how acetic “classic” Flanders Reds seem to get, I suspect that even though the walls of the giant oak aging tanks don’t let much O2 in, the lid might be letting some oxygen into the headspace (which would be used by the acetobacter to produce acetic acid).

The major advantage I see in using a piece of oak coming down into the beer is that it mimics a barrel, giving a place for microbes to live that is right where the oxygen is diffusing into the beer. Even if a stopper does mimic the oxygen permeability that oxygen is going into the head space not the beer directly.

I think next time I brew a Flanders Red I am going to age portions of it in various different ways (for example some combination of: carboy with airlock, HDPE bucket, open, carboy with wood insert, and small homebrew barrel) and then blend for the beer character (maltiness, acidity, oak etc…) I want after they all age for 12-18 months. I really like my first attempt at the style, but it just doesn’t have enough acidity, I wish I had aged part of the batch in something with more oxygen permeability to encourage more sourness.

Good luck on the beer!
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 499
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 06:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is true on the stoppers, not sure what they mean by "silicon". I just took it to mean the usual solid rubber stopper.

My Berliners are pretty acid from a carboy. If the red gets there by a different route, I'll be happy.

Tomorrow begins the experiment
 

Michael Tonsmeire
New Member
Username: Oldsock

Post Number: 10
Registered: 03-2007
Posted From: 146.142.39.23
Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 07:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is a picture of a silicone stopper from the NB website: http://www.northernbrewer.com/pics/fullsize/SilStopper.jpg

Did you just pitch lacto in the Berliner Weiss? “Traditional” Flanders Reds contain both Brettanomyces and Acetobacter, both of which benefit from the presence of oxygen. Without oxygen you will a “clean” sourness from the lacto, but it won’t be as complex as the same beer aged with a bit of oxygen diffusion. Flanders Oud Bruins are typically aged in airtight stainless steel tanks, which accounts for some of the differences between them and Flanders Reds which are aged in oak.

Waiting is so hard on these beers (but I think the anticipation makes the beer taste so good when it is finally done).
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1333
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Friday, September 07, 2007 - 03:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I got a pound of oak cubes 3 or 4 years ago and steamed them repeatedly until the water remained pretty pale. I've been re-pitching them into Lambics and Reds ever since, 2 or 3 ounces into each, never letting them dry out and mixing them up when possible. I want whatever is growing in them to inocculate each new batch.

As for oxygen, I used to age all the sour beers in plastic buckets. But they got too sour after a while. Now I use buckets for the first 4 - 6 months and then transfer to carboys with foil caps for the remainder of their time. (Since Berliners only age for about 6 months total, they stay in buckets the whole time.) This has worked well.
 

Andrew Bales
Advanced Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 502
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 01:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Big hopes when down the drain.

24 hours - The carboy with Notthingham was going fine by the next day. The Roselare smackpack one was still. 32 hours - same. So I paniced and poured 2qt down the drain of the Roselare carboy and refilled with 1qt from the Notthingham carboy and 1 pint of a Paul Hayslett special - A brett berliner from Janauary.

Really not sure what I did. But at 48 hours it is just starting to create a ring of yeast. My guess it that the last few pints of run off where done too warm(?) and it killed the yeast upon contact (up near the neck). If it don't take off - probably still had starsan in the carboy. Never had this before.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1337
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It may just have been starting from a very small number of Saccharomyces cells and it would have taken a while for the obvious signs of fermentation to appear. Without a microscope, it would not be possible to say whether or not the yeast was present and viable.

My take on all sour beers is that you want a very slow start with a very small number of Sacc cells. These little buggers have been bred for centuries to out-reproduce, out-eat, and generally out-compete everything else. All the other things that grow in beer either die when the pH drops and the ethanol level rises or grow so slowly that it takes months for their effects to show in the aroma and flavor. Sacc is just a big, greedy bully in the microbial playground.

If you start with just a few Sacc cells, then everybody else gets to have a good meal before the Sacc starts grabbing all the food. The Roselare blend may be balanced to give all those other guys a head start. I don't know but maybe you WANT to have no obvious sign of fermentation for a week or so.

Sounds like a question for Wyeast. I think I'll go send them email.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1280
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 01:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I talked to one of the Wyeast guys in Denver this year - sorry, I can't remember his name, but he was very technically-oriented. He recommended fermenting your wort with a normal Saccharomyces yeast for a week or so, then racking and adding the bugs. Anecdotally, this seems to be a common practice among successful sour beer brewers.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 7630
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Sacc is just a big, greedy bully in the microbial playground."

Paul, I know you said you grew up in the household of a medical researcher, but that turn of the phrase is positively inspired.
 

Michael Tonsmeire
New Member
Username: Oldsock

Post Number: 11
Registered: 03-2007
Posted From: 146.142.39.23
Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don’t think infection is a huge concern with sour beers, since you are intentionally adding most of the common spoilage microbes anyway.

I pitched just a pack of the Wyeast Lambic Blend into the primary of a lambic I brewed last fall, it took approximately 4 days to see any sign of fermentation. Once fermentation started it never really got rocking, and it stank (sulfur + butt) for about a week. I have no idea what a lambic is “supposed” to taste like after 9 months, but this one was not very pleasant when I took a taste a few months back. It definitely has more sourness than my Flanders Red (which didn’t get bugs until the secondary), but it also has a much harsher flavor. Hopefully the harshness will age out over the next year or so and the sourness will keep building.

I bet your batch will be fine, the worst thing is that when it turns out well it will be impossible to recreate these exact conditions.
 

Andrew Bales
Advanced Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 503
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.44.253
Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 03:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well it is going now (thanks to Nottingham). The smackpack was going fine, I hit it 2 days prior to usage and it took the full 2 days to expand up to normal size. It was the large one too. I figured some delay, but not 40 hours. Since we had been drinking since noon with people coming and going and chatting; and it was 7pm I had to wonder really.

I doubt that harshness completely goes away Michael but it will somewhat as other stuff hides it; but I just don't like the Wyeast Blend anymore. Never had a beer from it that I liked. Re-using it makes it really strongly acidic and dry. I tried solerno'ing beers on that culture and after about 3 cycles they were undrinkable. I was using fruit too, so that might not be the best idea to provide that culture with so much fruit so late it in the game.

I have not done this solerno stuff with Paul's idea on Berliners but now that I have a beer going using that and Nottingham I might have to try it. Those beers are so much nicer and enjoyable than what I was getting. Back to back testing is quite obvious on the 194F santized/nottingham/lactic pitched beers versus the drain mash/chill/pitch beers. Most prefer the santized one but I really like both. The fruity brett flavors and restrained yet every present sourness are quite astounding. Have no idea how to enter this in a competition.

Having now added a wild beer to the Roselare cultured one, I am thinking I might only add a santized culture Berliner to the plain one. This will give me two different beers to compare. But then again, if I wait until both are pretty done before racking them and not cleaning anything, that migth be different enough. Have to think about it.

Hey guys, thanks for the comments.