| Author |
Message |
    
Lee Smith
Junior Member
Username: Smithly
Post Number: 37
Registered: 08-2007
Posted From: 199.46.200.230
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 10:26 pm: | 
|
Hey y'all,
Hope everyone had a great holiday and got their fill of food and drink.
On to my question. After reading and re-reading Jack Schmidlings descriptions of options for his Maltmill I am surprised to see that one of his options is to have only one end of a roller adjustable. This results in a tapered opening. What is the purpose of that? To my way of thinking, a parallel opening would yield the more uniform crush. Can anyone provide the reasoning for this?
Thanks,
Lee in Marana, AZ |
Brewzz
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewzz
Post Number: 365
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.112.116.217
| | Posted on Monday, November 26, 2007 - 11:58 pm: |
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Sounds like lazy machining to me.Just as easy to install two eccentric bushings as one... |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5086
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 12:18 am: |
|
The opening at the bottom of the funnel is only about 2" wide. The grain does not spread out much when the rollers are turning. The taper across the 2" is not so much as to make much difference. |
Ron Siddall
Intermediate Member
Username: El_cid
Post Number: 474
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 198.135.241.18
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 12:58 am: |
|
I have the Maltmill version that can be adjusted on both ends. Jack is anything but lazy. I love this mill for its durability and flexibility. Jack gives you several versions to buy. I think he makes the single side adjust version for someone who wants some but not total flexibility in gap sizing.
He also states on his web site that he thinks the need for adjusting the gap size to be totally un-necessary. |
Belly Buster Bob
Senior Member
Username: Canman
Post Number: 2943
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 131.137.245.200
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 02:29 pm: |
|
right from his site
"One final point on adjustable mills is worth putting on the table. It is frequently suggested that the one sided adjustability of the MM is a limitation when in fact, this is actually the key to the so called "text book crush".
If you look at the oft published drawing of a six roller mill, you will note that the roller spacings are about .050", .030" and .012" from top to bottom. It just so happens that, when an adjustable MM is set to near contact at the adjustable end, one gets those same numbers at the fixed end, center and adjustable end respectively. The end result is that the random distribution of grain across the length of the rollers provides about the same grist distribution as a six roll mill.
This situation is enhanced as the roller length is increased and probably could not be reproduced in a mill with shorter rollers. I also doubt that short rollers could be operated at such a skew without binding and/or damage to the bearings.
I repeat my challenge to anyone to prove that they get better beer using any mill out there than from a fixed MM. Not surprisingly, I hear from people who have had mills for years who call to ask what the knob on the side is for or who know what it is for but have never adjusted the mill since receiving it.
HOWEVER, to silence the skeptics, we do offer a mill, (Model AA) adjustable at both ends, for a nominal additional cost but few of them are willing to put their money where their mouth is." |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5089
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 02:59 pm: |
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I gotta laugh that he is still publishing that stuff. |
Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 366
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 03:04 pm: |
|
although,
He does push a great product none the less.
Eccentric does not begin to describe Jack... He is a serious piece of work |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 8051
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 142.222.106.34
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 04:23 pm: |
|
Yeah, you've got to love Jack Schmidling. He's as eccentric as his mill adjustment, but that's the spirit of homebrew. |
Cory K.
Member
Username: Galaxy51
Post Number: 114
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 67.41.254.175
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 05:34 pm: |
|
Those Maltmills are tough and produce a quality crush! I bought an "unserviceable" single adjustment Maltmill from a HB supply store that had used the mill for eight years, powered by a corded 1/2 inch drill. Finally the area where the drill chuck contacted the roller shaft became so worn down from occasional slippage that the shaft finally broke off. There was enough shaft protruding that I fitted a spider coupling and the mill is now powered with an 80 RPM gearmotor that was salvaged from a junkyard reclinging hospital bed. (There is enough shaft exposed on the other roller that I could easily have powered both rollers) I assumed at the time of purchase that the bushings were all well worn and I ordered new bushings for it but when they arrived (there was no charge for the bushings) I measured them and there was no appreciable difference in the old original bushings and the new ones so I left the old ones in the mill. The exception was that the single and smaller bushing for the adjustable roller end had worn but an adjustment compensated for that. I also have a corona type of grain mill that attaches to a Kitchen Aid mixer. They both run at a slow speed and are adjustable, but the quality of crush with the Maltmill is far superior to the corona type which is a grinder rather than a roller. I too had reservations about the Maltmill's single adjustment providing a quality crush but all those reservations are gone. |
Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 2675
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 06:00 pm: |
|
80RPM sounds like it would take forever! 
I only move the rollers when crushing wheat malt by itself, but still get a decent crush when mixed in with husked malts... |
Cory K.
Member
Username: Galaxy51
Post Number: 115
Registered: 04-2006
Posted From: 67.41.254.175
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 06:47 pm: |
|
Yea, 80 rpm is slow but I can't argue with the quality of the crush. With 80 rpm and the width of funnel opening that I built into the wooden hopper, it mills about 3 pounds a minute. One thing I considered but didn't think of it in time, was to make the feeding funnel off to one side a bit. With the slightly tapering roller gap of the singly adjustable Malt Mill I could then just lift off the hopper and replace it turned 180 degrees to place the funnel over a slightly different gap. For me that would be much easier and repeatable than manually adjusting the gap. Maybe some cold boring winter day I will be feeling a bit accentric and will redesign and rebuild the hopper with adjustability in mind. In the meantime I am very happy with my gap setting and am content to be off just a little from optimum with some of the grains I use in lessor amounts. |
Lee Smith
Junior Member
Username: Smithly
Post Number: 38
Registered: 08-2007
Posted From: 199.46.245.231
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 09:07 pm: |
|
I emailed Jack with my questions as well as posting them here. I appreciate everyone chiming in with their opinions and rationale. I thought it may serve to post Jack's response that just arrived in my personal email. He split up the questions and responded to each directly. My questions are prefaced with a *.
<snip>
*Why would anyone want to adjust only one end of a grain mill?
Because it works as well and allows the Gear Drive Option. You can't use gears on shafts whose spacing changes. It's also a matter of
keeping it simple and hence more reliable.
*To my way of thinking, the rollers should be parallel in order to get a consistant crush.
Most people are of that opinion but a "constant" crush is not the issue with brewing. The requirement is a proper statistical distribution of the grist size. It doesn't matter how it is achieved as long as it is the right distribution.
There is no one right size for grist. You need everything from flour to whole husks to get it right. What is important is the correct amount of each size.
<snip>
So there it is. He also directed me to the same link as did BBB. Being a process-focused guy with some experience with statistical control, Jack explanation is very convincing in light of the comparison to the 6-roller mills used at the commercial level. I will bite on this and probably purchase on of his Maltmills with one adjustable end. Ever the skeptic, I will chew with consideration all that has been said on the subject.
Thanks Again,
Lee |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5091
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:04 pm: |
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<Being a process-focused guy with some experience with statistical control, Jack explanation is very convincing in light of the comparison to the 6-roller mills used at the commercial level.>
You should know that no one has ever been able to come even remotely close to duplicating the "6-roller" information cited on his site. I have tried as well as others. I have even lent out a full set of sieves for outside evaluation and am willing to do so again. I have strong reason to believe that the "6-roller" data is irreproducable.
Dan Listermann
(Message edited by listermann on November 27, 2007) |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5150
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:20 pm: |
|
hahaha! "Dam Listermann" Is that a Freudian slip?
Anyhow, I am looking forward to "Malt Mill Wars IV: Listermann Strikes Back!"
Someone e-mail Jack to enter the B&V and join in the fun! |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5151
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:28 pm: |
|
Date: Mon, 22 Feb 1999 21:50:33 -0800
From: Jack Schmidling <arf>
Subject: Milling Grains
Dan Listermann <72723.1707>
"The other week Jack Schmidling posted the following:
< If you look at the oft published drawing of a six roller
> mill.....
Just to keep the record straight, I posted no such thing. It was
the sales manager for that Canadian company who always seems to be
trying to pick a fight. He got nowhere on r.c.b so he lifted that
from my web page and came trolling here in the HBD and now seems
to have gotten a bite.
"I tried to reproduce the claims made by Jack's promotional
material with an adjustable Maltmill.
Again for the record, that statement was paraphrased from a report
submitted by George Fix after an evaluation of one of the first
MM's ever shipped. The data is NOT paraphrased, it is his data.
Because of your difficulty in reproducing the results, I sent samples
to Sieble Institute along with samples from your mill and the results
more or less corroborate the fact that the MM provides "about the
same distrubution" and I went away satisfied. I did nothing with the
data provided on the grist from your mill other than give a sigh of
satisfaction. However, as one can make anything one wants with
an adjustable mill, the results didn't seem worth publishing. I
was more interested in what our mill did.
"I have not found the data that Jack publishes to be remotely
reproducible even with multiple passes and adjustments between passes.
I take no responsibility for your problems in reproducing the results.
"Someone (?) will point out that I am not without interests here and they
are right. I am willing to lend my seives to others who might want to
attempt to reproduce Jack's claims. It is kinda fun! Just ask.
It certainly is a good exercise and if everyone understood the basics
of the testing, it would make life much simpler for all of us who
make mills. I wish I had a buck for everyone who complained that
there was "too much flour in the grist from my brand new mill".
Because they do not understand the technology, they assume that
all fine grist is evil. When asked how much is too much, they haven't
a clue.
BTW, Sieble uses a motorized and timed shaker so I would not be
surprised if someone got different results hand shaking the sieves.
js
- -- |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5092
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:33 pm: |
|
Thank you "Chumley." Perhaps we won't have to bother Jack himself after all. |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5152
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:39 pm: |
|
I dunno....I think Jack might find it amusing that you are still beating this dead horse 8 years later |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5093
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:44 pm: |
|
If he is still publishing "false and misleading information," the horse still needs beating.
(Message edited by listermann on November 27, 2007) |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5154
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:54 pm: |
|
One of the most outspoken competitors insists on publicly claiming that his much smaller and more expensive mill has a higher throughput than ours. Although patently absurd, I finally decided to challenge him to prove it and the following exchange on a usenet forum was the end of the story.....
From: "Dan Listermann"
> The Philmill I requires about 1 minute per pound by hand over a sustained time (not just put a pound in and see how fast you can crank in a burst) and 20 seconds motorized with a 1/2" drill.
> The Philmill II requires about 25 seconds per pound by hand over a sustained time and 6.3 seconds powered with a 1/2" drill.
From: Jack Schmidling
I said that if you were in the ballbark of our 14 seconds for hand cranking,I would run the motor test. By your own numbers, they are not even in the same city but it's a nice day today so I thought I would pander to you.
Without changing a thing from the last time I brewed, I started up the mill and dumped in a pound of Durst Pils. Time= 8.54 seconds
I then removed the grain guides and the time was 5.08 seconds.
This was running at about 200 RPM as mentioned previously.
I then changed the drive pulley from 2" to 3" for about 400 RPM and the time was 3.38 seconds.
This is still far short of the recommended optimum speed for the MALTMILL(R) but already we are close to twice your throughput and I see no point in continuing this farce.
If you wish to go on telling the world that your pint-sized mill has a higher throughput than ours, I can't stop you and won't even bother getting involved in these discussions anymore. I will simply provide a link to this message on our website.
Thanks for providing the motivation to put this to bed. And the chickens thank you also for the crushed malt.
js |
Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 374
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 10:56 pm: |
|
 |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5094
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 11:04 pm: |
|
"Chumley," I am not sure what Jack is trying to say there. Can you help? |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5156
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 11:17 pm: |
|
I think Jack rather succinctly summarized the results of "Malt Mill Wars III: Return of the Schmidling" in that discussion. Has been that long ago, you no longer recall what you two were bickering over, Dan? |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5095
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 27, 2007 - 11:34 pm: |
|
I think you are mistaken. Again, exactly what was he trying to say? |
Lee Smith
Junior Member
Username: Smithly
Post Number: 39
Registered: 08-2007
Posted From: 199.46.245.230
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 12:19 am: |
|
Dang! Forget I ever asked. There will always be controversy over fine points on any subject. Please, let's end this thread. Amusing as it may be to some, I don't see a positive outcome.
Thanks for everyone's opinions.
Lee |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 8055
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 12:26 am: |
|
Move along, folks! Nothing to see here. |
Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 375
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 12:30 am: |
|
Thanks Bill |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5096
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 12:37 am: |
|
Indeed, Scott. |
Ron Siddall
Intermediate Member
Username: El_cid
Post Number: 475
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 198.135.241.18
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 12:52 am: |
|
I love my Maltmill..... |
Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 376
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 01:53 am: |
|
Although, I went to a CrankAndStein Model 3D last year My adjustable JSP MaltMill is still alive and kicking.
My neighbor has been using it to grind grist for his beers since he went all grain back in the Spring.
It is really nice to know that after almost 13 years and thousands of pounds of grain that it is still being used and still making great beer |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5157
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 71.217.137.120
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 03:30 am: |
|
My only point in posting Jack's previous posts in other forums and discussion boards, is that there are two sides to every story.
I have been reading the Listerling/Schmidmann debates in other forums for at least 10 years now. I thought, in the interest of fairness, that I should post some of Jack's responses, since he retired from the discussion many years ago.
And before someone flame me (once again) as a troll, let me go on record as a guy who had 8 great years of service from his Phil Mill I, manufactured by the Listermann Manufacturing Co. of Cincinnati OH, until I upgraded to a newer mill. And in those 8 years of ownership, Dan responded with great service over any issues that came up. |
Belly Buster Bob
Senior Member
Username: Canman
Post Number: 2946
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 131.137.245.199
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:15 pm: |
|
brown noser |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5159
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:26 pm: |
|
Oh yeah?!? Would a BROWN NOSER post this?!? |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 8057
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:30 pm: |
|
Folks, it's all right to disagree, but do we have to be so personal about it? |
Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 378
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.60.78.162
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:35 pm: |
|
Maybe it has just been too Cordial around here for Chumley lately Bill?
(Message edited by skotrat on November 28, 2007) |
davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw
Post Number: 1791
Registered: 03-2001
Posted From: 65.163.6.62
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 04:55 pm: |
|
From the B&V's home page:
"If you did not create a photo, drawing, etc, please do not post it here - particularly if your intent is to disparage or poke fun at another."
Discuss! |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 5160
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 05:33 pm: |
|
Does that mean we should not post pictures that we did not take ourselves? I juess that means no more "Please end this thread", bobbers, etc. |
Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 2679
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.41
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 08:12 pm: |
|
I am keeping my bobbers and kittens with handguns pix...
I think the theory on having different sizes of grist with the different sized gap is interesting. I think I may adjust my 2-side adjustable (barleycrusher) to be uneven to try it out.
My guess? Absolutely no noticeable difference... |
Steve Funk
Intermediate Member
Username: Tundra45
Post Number: 419
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 209.216.169.54
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 12:23 am: |
|
Mills mills mills! Barley Crushers, Cranknsteins, JSPs, Automatic (RIP), Monster Mills, Phil Mills, Coronas, home made, rolling pin, etc. ad nausium. Just crush your malt and make some beer. That is all. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 8061
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 01:08 am: |
|
Steve's right. Mills are one area where there is an embarrassment of good choices for homebrewers. It's been eight years now, but I was part of a brew club experiment that compared the crush of a pound of domestic two-row malt each done with a JSP, Valley (no longer made), Automatic Products (no longer made) and PhilMill 2. The Barley Crusher and Crankandstein mills weren't available then. As a reference, we also had a pound crushed on a local brewpub's four-roller (admittedly, not six) commercial Roskamp mill. To all of our eyes (and those of the brewpub brewer) the crush was virtually indistinguishable from one to the next.
So relax and change the argument to something that actually makes a difference. |
Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe
Post Number: 968
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 64.233.251.195
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 05:52 pm: |
|
Another data point. I have an old Crankandstein mill that is not adjustable(the horror). When I started to experience some poor efficiencies I contacted the manufacturer to see if it need service. He instructed me to run my drill as slow as I could without having it jam. My efficiencies improved by 15-20 percent. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5099
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 07:10 pm: |
|
Paul, that is interesting. It has been my experience that the opposite should be true. Running a mill faster makes a finer grist which should increase efficiency. It is not a big difference ( you really need a set of sieves to see it) but it is there.
Perhaps some really wild speeds could cause enough flour that balls might form in the mash, but I would be highly surprised to see that. |
Ron Siddall
Intermediate Member
Username: El_cid
Post Number: 483
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 198.135.241.18
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:27 pm: |
|
Paul, it might be that your knurling (sp) might have worn down and at higher speeds the rollers tended to shoot the whole grain through rather than crushing it. At slower speeds I would think that would not be an issue.
Or,
.....as has been somewhat suggested, you might just not know how to calculate efficiencies.  |
Colby Enck
Intermediate Member
Username: Thecheese
Post Number: 485
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 70.44.68.25
| | Posted on Thursday, November 29, 2007 - 11:55 pm: |
|
I'm still using a Corona.
Stuck sparges occasionally, but after the first one and learning how to deal with it, I no longer suffer from SSSD (Stuck Sparge Stress Disorder).
I did upgrade to cordless drill power about a year ago.
I have not yet failed to make beer. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 5102
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
| | Posted on Friday, November 30, 2007 - 12:11 am: |
|
"I have not yet failed to make beer."
This is an important point. |
Ernie Kautzmann
New Member
Username: Erniek
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 72.91.233.90
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 02:44 pm: |
|
I own a Mill and it does hold up very well. This is a photo of my motorized build.
 |
dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 1182
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 70.156.46.119
| | Posted on Sunday, December 02, 2007 - 02:48 pm: |
|
Very nice Ernie . . And welcome aboard! |
Brews and Views Archive 2007 
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