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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2008 * Archive through January 07, 2008 * Scottish ale < Previous Next >

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mark anthony
Junior Member
Username: Marky30

Post Number: 44
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 68.60.132.51
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Id like to brew a scottish ale tomorrow.I have 1728 yeast and would like an easy all grain recipe with not alot of speciality grains.I know Skotrat has a few but when trying to scale it to 5 gallons I get some funky lbs/oz conversions.Id like to just do a 1/2 lbs or this and 1/4 pound of that ect.....Any suggestion for a recipe?Thanks...Mark
 

Mike
Intermediate Member
Username: Macker

Post Number: 455
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 151.151.73.163
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I like the simple recipe of 99% Pale Malt, 1% Chocolate or Roast, and then one hop addition that gives you a a BU/GU in the 0.33 range. So, for a 1.048 Scottish Ale, hop it with one addition at 60 minutes in order to get 16 IBUs.

Oh, and then there is boiling down of first runnings....

Slainte'!

(Message edited by Macker on December 10, 2007)
 

ChriSto
Intermediate Member
Username: Christo

Post Number: 269
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 06:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

as an option to kettle caramelization, Jamil Z has a fairly tried and true recipe for Scottish ales. He uses the following specialty grains (or something pretty close):
1/2 lb. Crystal 10L
1/2 lb. American Munich
1/2 lb. American crystal 40L
1/2 lb. American crystal 120L
2 oz. chocolate
then adds pale malt to OG desired (roughly 1.035 for 60/-, 1.040 for 70/-, and 1.050 for 80/-). I'm sure you could make it easier by combining the crystals into one and use a medium L type.

Use of crystal malts gives the caramel taste without kettle caramelization (if maybe not true to original roots - I guess the lazy man's method). 1728 is good or even just 1056. I've scored in the low to mid 30's with this basic recipe for low grav versions using each of these yeasts (never a winner but still nice). Probably preferred the 1728. I'd go with Mike on the bitterness ratio and a mild UK hop.

(Message edited by christo on December 10, 2007)
 

Little Dipper
Intermediate Member
Username: Littledipper

Post Number: 329
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 206.114.61.199
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I tried the kettle carmalization thing and it didn't work well for me. I know others swear by it, and I wanted it to work, but I dumped the batch after 6 months of aging, hoping it would go away. It had that flavor that I associate with the first batches of extract beer I ever made. Not sure what it is, but I think it's similar to what you get when not using a full-wort boil.

I know others have had success with it, so don't rule it out, but I tried it and did not like the results.
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 429
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With all due respect to Jamil Z

That Scottish Recipe is about as traditional as Chop Suey.

Scottish styles are pretty easy

99% Pale malt
1% Specialty Malt (Roast or Dark Crystal)

Hop them like you are a cheap yankee
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 430
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You also need to look into long boils and kettle carmelization.

So for any scottish style ale think about doing a minimum 90 minute boil
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 431
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 06:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh...

I see that Macker already gave the same answer... Thanks Mike!
 

Mike
Intermediate Member
Username: Macker

Post Number: 456
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 151.151.21.101
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

1056 attenuates too much for my taste as far as Scottish Beers go.

If not a boildown of first runnings, then a long boil of at least 90 minutes is the ticket. The crystal just does not represent well for me.

I have brewed this basic recipe with variations up and down for gravity. It has served me well both from an awards standpoint as well as a drinking standpoint.
 

ChriSto
Intermediate Member
Username: Christo

Post Number: 270
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 07:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No beef with me on the JZ recipe, Skot. I've done the boildown version once, too, and it was good as well, though I scored much higher with the crystal meth-od (no pun intended). The caramel flavor is different - I'd have to say it's more toasty/melanoid in the boil-down version for sure. The other is, well, crystal-like.

Definitely the JZ recipe is not traditional, but it tastes good. FWIW, it's apparently what the judges are looking for these days.
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 432
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 07:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Americans over use crystal malts.
 

Patrick C.
Advanced Member
Username: Patrickc

Post Number: 755
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 24.30.90.135
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 07:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mark, if you don't like the percentages just try 10 pounds Pale Ale malt, 2 oz. Roast Barley. :-)
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 433
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HA!
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 303
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 146.137.152.40
Posted on Monday, December 10, 2007 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Definitely the JZ recipe is not traditional, but it tastes good. FWIW, it's apparently what the judges are looking for these days."


Sounds like the judges are morons. And yet another reason that any middle or high ranking BJCP judge you should have had to traveled and sampled beers in several countries where the beers originate. Perhaps there should be category as BCJP Apprentice, and you remain in that category unless you have been to about 6 different countries and have sampled their beers.
 

George Schmidt
Advanced Member
Username: Gschmidt

Post Number: 718
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 68.79.170.39
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 04:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm drinking a 70/- right now that came from Jamil's recipe. Good, if young and under-carbed still. (I'm low on beer.) I just wanted to point out that the recipe is light chocolate, the 200L stuff. Also, the 1056 works well if you mash at 158F.
 

ChriSto
Intermediate Member
Username: Christo

Post Number: 274
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HEU - JZ keeps winning multiple medals each year at NHC, so as I said it's apparently what the judges are looking for. And those would supposedly be the top judges out there.

Unfortunately, based on travel funding limitations, I guess I'll be an Apprentice judge for a long time - does Mexico count?

And yes, it was 4 oz. light chocolate malt in original recipe. LHBS didn't have so I went with JZ's suggestion of half the amount of regular chocolate malt.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8160
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 01:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With the cost of airfare today, becoming a BJCP judge could become a rather expensive voluntary activity if you take HEU Brewer's suggestion seriously that judges need to have traveled to six countries where beer styles originate.
 

Hallertauer
Intermediate Member
Username: Hallertauer

Post Number: 499
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 204.104.55.242
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

**that judges need to have traveled to six countries where beer styles originate**

Given the fact that the european countries are about the size of Rohde island and right next to each other, it would only require one 2 week trip.
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 436
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 02:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A very fun two week trip at that...

Christo... I am sure brewing JZ's beer will give you a great product.

However, If you are going to brew a traditional style it is my belief that you should brew with the right ingredients.

As for BJCP judges and giving them what they want; Brew for yourself. I also have met very few BJCP judges that are worth their wait and I have also noticed that a lot of big winners are also having their beer judged by their buddies in a lot of situations. I do not know if that is the case with JZ nor am I slamming him.

JZ is doing a lot for home brewing in general and that is a very good thing!
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 304
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 146.137.152.40
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"However, If you are going to brew a traditional style it is my belief that you should brew with the right ingredients."

Perfectly stated!!!!!!
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 305
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 146.137.152.40
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It would be interesting to find out what judges have traveled and when they have traveled. If you are a BJCP judge and you are judging a beer based on your experence with bottled imports then well..... Lets say you are missing out and so are the poor saps who get you as a judge

For me each visit to London is a recalibration,
Want a good german lager... Go to Germany!
 

Hallertauer
Intermediate Member
Username: Hallertauer

Post Number: 500
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 204.104.55.242
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

**Want a good german lager... Go to Germany!**

Go to Bamberg and the surounding areas. You won't be disappointed.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 5195
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I dunno about the need to travel....I picked up a sixer of Staropramen last weekend, and that beer tastes about perfect for a Czech pils....green bottle and all.
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 437
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Man that is good stuff Chumley

As you know I used that wYeast StaroPrague strain for my Imperial Pilsener and I have to say that it was perfection!
 

Little Dipper
Intermediate Member
Username: Littledipper

Post Number: 330
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 206.114.61.199
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmm. I guess I can see where you guys are coming from, but here's my take on it:

This is a hobby. Most of us do this because we enjoy beer and a it's fun and relatively inexpensive hobby. Most brewers I know don't have enough extra cash to put towards a hobby to even splurge on a dedicated freezer let alone a trip to Europe (I'm not sure how tongue-in-cheek those comments were). The AHA competition is what it is - it's probably not perfect, and the judging may be ridiculed, but for homebrewers, it's their chance to be a big fish in a very big sea. If you win a medal in that competition, you brewed a damn good beer. It doesn't matter if it's traditional or authentic. It's one of the best 'homebrewed' beers in America for that year. I think there's something to be said for that no matter how traditional your recipe was.

No offense meant to anyone. I think the hobby just needs to be kept in perspective.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5157
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 04:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Go to Bamberg and the surounding areas. You won't be disappointed."

I intend to get a room at a brewery and just wander around Bamberg for a week - possibly in 09. I was generally underwhelmed with the beers I tasted in western Germany in October. Pilsners and wheat beers can get boring after a while.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8170
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan has a point. It's possible to go to parts of Germany and find underwhelming examples of some styles, even relatively close to their home regions. Then again, you may stumble onto an obscure beer you've never heard of, only to rave about it.
 

Pete O
New Member
Username: Peteo

Post Number: 10
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 208.116.131.196
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 05:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't have it with me at the moment, but in Designing Great Beers, doesn't Ray Daniels talk about the alternative Scotch Ale approach, of using speciality malts instead of boiling down first runnings? I don't remember if he says how far back that approach dates, but if memory serves (and it often doesn't, the lazy bastard), Daniels says there are plenty of examples of the alternative method from actual Scotland breweries. My understanding is that Jamil Z got the idea from Daniels who got it from looking into what actual Scottish brewers do (some of whom of course boil their first runnings and don't use the specialty malts approach).

Perhaps there are two traditions? Or maybe it's just that the alternative method is a newer approach (though if some of the actual Scotch Ale makers in Scotland are doing it and have been doing it at least for a handful of decades, is it still inauthentic)?
 

Greg Brewer
Member
Username: Greg_r

Post Number: 140
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 76.209.228.216
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had an experience very similar to Little Dipper's. Last year I brewed a strong scotch ale using only pale and a little roasted. I boiled a gallon of first runnings down to a thick syrup. Smelled and tasted great, and I really looked forward to the final beer.

Well, the flavor was precisely as LD described it, reminding me of early extract results, with a kind of harsh worty flavor. Initially, I blamed it on the EKG hops my LHBS sold me which looked past their prime, since that was the only thing I could suspect and I used a lot of EKG back in the extract days. The flavor has definitely faded with time, but no way has it reach the intense maltiness of Traquir House (which is what I was after). Does TH or any other Scottish brewer reduce the first runnings as well, or is this a homebrew process exclusively?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5159
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have ben told that TH does not reduce the first runnings but rather uses an extended boil - four hours IIRC.
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 438
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does TH or any other Scottish brewer reduce the first runnings as well, or is this a homebrew process exclusively?

I was given the process directly from the Traq House brewers
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5160
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I got contrary information from one of them.
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 439
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Traquair House has no record of that employee ever being employed even as a part time brewer at their brewery.

Nor do they have any knowledge of him as an apprentice or guest brewer
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5161
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't even remember his name. Do you know it, Scott?
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 440
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John Kathman
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5162
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds close. Where did you get it?
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 441
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 07:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

get what?

According to this site:

http://www.ifcomeoncouldtalk.com/johnkathman.html

It states John as having brewed at Traq...

Interesting that nobody at Traq remembers him ever being there
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5163
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where did you get his name?
 

Mike
Intermediate Member
Username: Macker

Post Number: 457
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 151.151.73.164
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 08:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan is a wealth of un-named sources that have significant amounts of credibility.......and a memory that creates lapses at convenient times.

1) Traq Brewer
2) Head Accountant
3) The great Bittering Experiment

to name three.....
 

Mike
Intermediate Member
Username: Macker

Post Number: 458
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 151.151.73.164
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/26895/34043.html
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 442
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 08:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where did you get his name?

From you a couple years back...
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5164
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As I can see. Glad you remembered. Thanks Mike!
 

Bierview
Intermediate Member
Username: Bierview

Post Number: 277
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 67.81.178.93
Posted on Tuesday, December 11, 2007 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I love this recipe. The smokey flavor is just right.

10 lbs pilsner
1 lb carastan
.05 lb English Brown
.05 lb peated
.25 lb choc.

At 90 min 1.5 oz fuggle
At 15 min .05 oz fuggle 2 tsp irish moss

OG: 1.063
FG: 1.012

I used WLP 028
pitched at 65 degrees
8 day primary
18 day condition
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8173
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 03:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Peated malt is strong stuff indeed. Please note the amount in Bierview's recipe: 0.05 lb. That's a little less than 1 oz.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 5168
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.23.59.245
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 03:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When we first got peated malt in, we decided to make a 100% batch with the idea that we would dilute it with other beers to determine the tollerable level. It wasn't bad. I am a smoke beer freak. Frankly we never got around to doing the dilutions.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1421
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 05:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry to be late to the discussion.

HEU Brewer wrote: "Sounds like the judges are morons. And yet another reason that any middle or high ranking BJCP judge you should have had to traveled and sampled beers in several countries where the beers originate. Perhaps there should be category as BCJP Apprentice, and you remain in that category unless you have been to about 6 different countries and have sampled their beers."

Since you took the liberty of calling the judges morons, allow me to return the favor. That is absurd.

I live in what is nearly a beer vacuum. I read lots of books and magazines and ask questions here, but from a practical standpoint I am self-taught, in that I have never brewed a batch of beer with anyone else. Despite this, I brew styles that I have never even tasted and win medals with them, to include NHC medals. (Maybe the judges were morons. ) And I'm also a BJCP judge.

My point is that if I can brew what is recognized as a classic example of the style by studying the style, using authentic ingredients and authentic techniques, and then drink most of the batch myself (which I do), then I have a fair yardstick for what said style is supposed to look/smell/taste like, without ever travelling outside of my driveway.

As it turns out, I do travel extensively, but I still haven't made it to Great Britain or Belgium. Should I notify the organizers at each contest that I judge that I shouldn't be assigned to categories from those countries/commonweaths? I have brewed numerous batches of bitters, IPA's, barleywines, porters, stouts, browns, milds, abbey styles, lambics, other sour ales - I have a 15-gallon Hungarian oak barrel in my basement full of lambic, along with two plastic buckets and two 3-gallon carboys of other bug-beers. I also drink numerous brewpub and taproom and import selections of various styles every chance I get in cities from coast to coast. But I've never been to Great Britain or Belgium, so I guess I can't judge British-style or Belgian-style beers?

I don't know if you're a judge or not, HEU - evidently not, to make comments like you did - but in an average flight, half or more of the beers are immediately eliminated due to some major or moderate flaw. You don't have to be a world traveller to identify infection, diacetyl, phenols, higher alcohols, etc., and to recommend remedies to the entrant. You don't have to be a world traveller to pick the best three beers out of those that remain.

I agree that travelling and broadening one's palate is highly beneficial. However, to say that it should be a requirement for what is, after all, a voluntary position, assumes that one cannot brew and drink a good example of this, that or the other thing in their own kitchen. That is simply not true, and many of us are able to prove it nearly every batch.

If your palate has developed to the point where you look upon judges with disdain, whether through experience, travel, or whatever, then you should become a BJCP judge, if you aren't one already. Contribute to the hobby instead of belittling those that are making an honest effort to.
 

Hallertauer
Advanced Member
Username: Hallertauer

Post Number: 502
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 204.104.55.243
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 09:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What I got from what people were saying, (no I'm not gonna go back, reread and quote) is that if a judge has whittled it down to 6 beers or so, he is going to give more points to the beers that maybe a little extra 'umph' such as caramalts that are out of style for the, well, style.

For example that ounce of peated malt in a scotch ale might just push that beer into getting a medal as opposed to the one that used none even though the 'style' in the country of orgin uses no peated malt. Hmmm I guess you would not have to travel to Scottland to figure that out. But Scottland is a real pretty place to visit. It's like Ireland with more whiskey and beer culture. Don't know that it'll make you a better judge of beer though.
 

Hallertauer
Advanced Member
Username: Hallertauer

Post Number: 503
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 204.104.55.243
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 09:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh ya, and I you now have a new 'advanced member' on your hands. Took me damn near 5 years to accomplish that.
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1210
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 72.155.223.45
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Discipline

I think that should be the defining attribute of a judge, though I'm not one, nor have I ever entered any of my beers in comps to really understand how the process works.

But it's real simple . . if the judges are familiar with the specifics of a certain style, (and I'm assuming they should be) then the beer should be judged based on that criteria, leaving any prejudices or preferences out. Palates can be trained to recognize flavors and flaws, but instilling the necessary mind set to allow an objective and equitable review is something entirely different.

THAT is the most difficult part to achieve. Personal biases will always have some impact.

I don't think traveling abroad is gonna make any difference in those biases. It should all boil down to strict discipline for judging.

(Message edited by dhacker on December 12, 2007)
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 307
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 146.137.152.40
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Graham, no I am not a judge and to be honnest I never did understand how one person can be so intimately familiar with all beer styles. I certainly am not that smart.

To be honnest you can read all the books you want and brew good beers. I brewed a lot of Engish Ales prior to my first vistit to England. Looking back some were better than others, but it wasn't until my first visit to England to realize that there is a HUGE diversity of bitters. Many are high quality beers, some have more hop presence than others, some have more malt presence.
Point being how do you relate that to beers that you judge back in the U.S. If a judge has never tasted that diversity then they will be pigeon holed into judging a beer they belive is to style based on literature not on the real example.

Want concrete examples Jeffery Hudson Bitter is vastly different than Fullers Chiswick bitter, both are outstanding beers, but if due to reading literature my opinion is that a bitter should be like Fullers Chiswick then a brewer who brews a Jeffery Hudson will get shorted and that's not right. (In reality the Chiswick beer would probably get shorted but that's another topic)

Same can be said for the wonderful German lagers I have had in my very limited time in Germany, have yet to have one in the U.S that comes close.

Based on a couple of posts sounds like beer comps should do away with styles and just have

Dark beers that taste good and
Light beers that taste good
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 446
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 03:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Discipline

I think that can be difficult for judges whether advanced or novice. After all, a beer competition is always going to be somewhat subjective.

I have hosted many competitions, stewarded dozens and even judged a few. From a BJCP judge level I am often less than impressed with the judging process. I have seen BJCP judges ding APA's because of C-Hop overtones with comments like "I just hate C hops etc." and I have seen comments like "This Hefe Weiss is too cloudy for style"

At almost all competitions that I have ever stewarded at there have been printed out BJCP Style guidelines for every judge at every table. Yet not every judge touches them for each flight.

That has always upset me. There is no way that you can know every style inside and out.

I have had the pleasure of sitting judging with BJCP judges like Andy Patrick and Al Korzonas. Those guys are amazing... Constantly going over the style guidelines and confirming what the style is and where that beer stands in those guidelines.

As hacker says; it is all about Discipline
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8176
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 03:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HEU Brewer, I assume you are being facetious with your suggestion of "dark beers that taste good" and "light beers that taste good" as the sole style categories. Given those broad distinctions, Belgian tripel, ordinary bitter, classic American pilsner, framboise lambic and imperial IPA would be judged together, as would dry stout, oud bruin, mild ale and weizenbock. How would you feel as a brewer if the judges preferred someone's barley wine over your Scottish 60/- ale because the former has more body, alcohol and flavor? That's only one of the things the style guidelines were intended to prevent.
 

Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 980
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 64.233.251.195
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You know its funny, I think we all appreciate what Belgian brewers do, what many great UK brewers do, what of course the Germans have done for brewing and now to some extent what the craft brewing scene in America has done.

With exception of the last group none of these brewing groups developed based on a style guideline. The beers grew out of the process, ingredients and technology available at the time and have progressed as those variables progress.

I look at the guidelines often but I do not brew for competition but for my own enjoyment and what the people I share my beer like.
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 449
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

exactly Paul...

With that said though; If you are brewing to style it is my belief that you should brew to style with the same ingredients available to the locale of the style.
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 308
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 146.137.152.40
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 04:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Probably the same way as I feel when a 1.050 ESB takes the ordinary bitter category.

Paul is correct it is alomost a chicken and an egg type of thing, the beers drove the styles, but for comps the styles guides and classic examples should drive the beer development

OK bill, how about

Dark beers that taste good 1.060 and less
Dark beers that taste good 1.070 and higher
THe 0.01 is wiggle room since we all know brewers are on the edge when brewing for comps anyway

Same for light beers. Now we have 4 categores
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 309
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 146.137.152.40
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 04:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh and everyone gets a medal so their feelings don't get hurt
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 450
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Those participation trophy's really piss me off
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 5196
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I like those special ingredient competitions myself, like Iron Chef. Something like, "Most Innovative Use of Extinct Russian Oak in a Wee Heavy", or something like that....
 

Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 981
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 64.233.251.195
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 05:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With that said though; If you are brewing to style it is my belief that you should brew to style with the same ingredients available to the locale of the style.

Agreed, if said ingredient are readily available I would prefer to use them when brewing to style.

I have also sometimes thought in the reverse when coming up with recipes. My German heritage is from the Thüringen region of Germany which is Black Forest and Swartzbier area. If I was to brew this beer with American ingredient as an immigrant might have what would I come up with.

Dont tell my Norwegian Gammlemor that I think such thoughts.

(Message edited by perbe on December 12, 2007)
 

HEU Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 310
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 146.137.152.40
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 05:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I like the iron chef suggestion. Perhaps a 3 hour long tv show

Iron Brewer, you watch from milling to fermenting non-stop. Yes those 1 hour mashes/boils would be boring but it still would beat watching people play cards
 

Hallertauer
Advanced Member
Username: Hallertauer

Post Number: 505
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 84.169.10.147
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 06:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

**German heritage is from the Thüringen region of Germany which is Black Forest**

The black forest is now in Thüringen? Schwartzbier yes. When I have to go to the Opel plant in Eisenach I always pick up schwartzbier that you can't get here. Hell the only schwartzbier you can get outside of Thüringen is kostritzer. Just so you know, the black forest is in Baden Wurtenburg and not Thüringen.
 

Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 982
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 64.233.251.195
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My mistake,thanks.

Remember Haller part of the code of Advanced Members is loose interpretation of fact.

(Message edited by perbe on December 12, 2007)

(Message edited by perbe on December 12, 2007)
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 5197
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Wednesday, December 12, 2007 - 06:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Iron Brewer, you watch from milling to fermenting non-stop. Yes those 1 hour mashes/boils would be boring but it still would beat watching people play cards

I would place my money on Iron Brewer Abene, as he would have his wort in the fermentor with the yeast pitched while Iron Chef Listermann would still be watching his fan spin...
 

Brian Lundeen
New Member
Username: Brianl

Post Number: 1
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 142.161.72.117
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 03:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"HEU Brewer, I assume you are being facetious with your suggestion of "dark beers that taste good" and "light beers that taste good" as the sole style categories."

Bill, as a long time lurker, I simply had to uncloak to respond to this.

Sadly, up until a couple of years ago, that is exactly how the Amateur Winemakers of Canada used to judge their members' beer entries. Well, in truth they also had a "stout that tastes good" category, too. We've since expanded up to 5 judging classes, but at least now the entry is supposed to state the BJCP class it falls into, and judged accordingly.

Cheers
Brian
 

Skotrat
Intermediate Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 471
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 24.34.40.158
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 03:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOOK WHAT THAG DO!
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 5200
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 71.217.150.195
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 04:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I really don't have anything more to contribute to this discussion (you probably guessed that from my last post), but I would like to say HI! to Brian, whose posts I read for many years on the digest. I have always been intrigued by the GWN brewers, as I look like a compared to them.

Thanks for posting here, Brian!
 

Paul Erbe
Advanced Member
Username: Perbe

Post Number: 988
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 64.233.251.195
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

STOUT THAT TASTES GOOD!!!

Brilliant!
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8208
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Monday, December 17, 2007 - 06:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's not atypical for wine judges, many of whom still tend to view beer in terms of social class distinctions and treat it as if it were a poor relation. Moreover, there are often only a limited number of categories in wine competitions, along the lines of dry reds, sweet reds, dry whites, sweet whites, sparkling, fruit-based and dessert wines. The point is that it's a different world.
 

Michael
Advanced Member
Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 852
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 69.132.122.42
Posted on Tuesday, December 18, 2007 - 12:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have brewed Skot's Traquair House clone several times. Wife's favorite. Rave reviews...as a matter of fact, I have bottled the most recent batch for neighborhood, and such, gifts this year. Never any extract twang funk. Check your brewing process....
 

Brian Lundeen
New Member
Username: Brianl

Post Number: 2
Registered: 12-2007
Posted From: 142.161.72.117
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 02:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi back, Chumley. Not sure what it is about us that intrigues you, unless it's our desire to brew in a -40 blizzard, which I might add, we're damn glad to have so the fields have lots of moisture in the spring (or as you know it, July).
 

Peter Roman
Senior Member
Username: Lilbordr

Post Number: 1069
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 75.190.152.223
Posted on Wednesday, December 19, 2007 - 02:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I saw that there were 50+ posts on a subject matter not relating to mills, HSA, or {insert kindling here}. I had to come in and make sure everyone was playing nice. I must say that Skot's recipe is one of the best beer's I've ever had and definetly the best Scottish ale. I will also say that by the same token it is damn near the hardest beer I've ever made. That seperate boil takes FOREVER and needs constant babysitting if you're using your kitchen stove. Ever see what that syrup looks like after boiling over on a glass top stove? I can only imagine what it would do to a coil range! Even with the increased drugery of the brew day it is well worth it!
Cheers,
Peter 'the kid' Roman