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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2008 * Archive through May 30, 2008 * Dubbel recipe....your two bobs worth < Previous Next >

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brett matthews
Intermediate Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 260
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.95.127
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My wife loves Chimay Blue and I thought I'd brew a dubbel so that she has something on tap. Just interested on your thoughts on the below recipe.

Dubbel
45 litres
Pils 10kg (74%)
CaraMunich 40 1.91kg (14.1%)
CaraAmber 620g (4.6%)
Demerera Sugar 570g (4.2%)
Flaked Barley 420g (3.1%)

IBU - low to mid 20's
About 20g (3/4 oz) of coriander at flame out

This is really my first attempt at a dubbel so any input would be much appreciated
 

bill king
New Member
Username: Kingwj

Post Number: 6
Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 68.80.1.27
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 11:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

big starter is a given. I heard that Chimay puts a different (lager) yeast in the bottle to condition from the primary fermentation yeast. Is this true? In that case you wouldn't want to culture the bottle dregs for your fermentation.

I put a bit of dried orange peel in my belgians also.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8910
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 12:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

According to Brew Like a Monk, which is generally quite trustworthy, Chimay uses a single strain (Wyeast 1214/White Labs WLP500), with additional yeast of the same strain pitched at bottling.

As far as I'm concerned, the signature flavor of dubbels and Belgian dark strong ales (Chimay Blue is more properly a Belgian dark strong, while the Red is a dubbel) comes from Special B malt, and personally I would want 3-5 percent Special B in a Belgian dark strong recipe. That's not to say you can't achieve this with other malts, but I am very partial to the raisiny/plummy character Special B adds.

Also, most of the Trappist beers, including Chimay, do not use spices, relying instead on the yeast character. However, 3/4 oz. coriander might not be excessive in a 45 liter recipe, depending on your tastes.

(Message edited by BillPierce on May 27, 2008)
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1678
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 65.121.183.234
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You've got almost 20% caramel malts and only 5% sugar there, which is going to make it excessively sweet and heavy IMHO. I agree with Bill, use maybe 3-5% Special B and 3-5% Caramunich/CaraVienne MAX and up your sugar to at least 10% to get the dryness that the style needs. The flaked barley is not traditional and might make it a bit fluffy, but that's brewer's choice.

From the BJCP style guidelines: "Should not be as malty as a bock and should not have crystal malt-type sweetness. No spices."
 

David Lewinnek
Intermediate Member
Username: Davelew

Post Number: 461
Registered: 02-2005
Posted From: 198.51.251.205
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 04:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Most Trappist beers are about the esters, which are affected more by yeast strain and fermentation temperature than anything else. What yeast are you going to use, and what temperature will you ferment at? I'm a big fan of WY1214 around 20C to 22C (68F to 72F).
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 3215
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 74.7.7.66
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 08:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Demerera Sugar will work but so will table sugar for a lot less $.

Special B!!!
 

brett matthews
Intermediate Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 261
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.95.127
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unfortunately I can't access Special B here. What would be the closest alternative? Weyermann is readily available so I'm hoping there is something in their range that will act as a substitute, or should I just use dark crystal. In my original draft of this recipe I did have the sugar at around 10% of the grain bill but for whatever reason I pulled it back to 5. Graham, your point is a good one so I'll ramp it back up to 10% or thereabouts and omit the flaked barley which I had in there to 'dry' it out a little, but I'm not sure it would have achieved much anyway.
David, I did have the WY1214 in mind, thanks for the tip.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8914
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you can't get Special B, a dark crystal malt in the 100L (264 EBC) range will be similar although not quite the same.
 

brett matthews
Intermediate Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 262
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.95.127
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Bill, I will give the HBS a call today to see if they do have Special B but last time I was in, no go.
I've updated the recipe based on feedback.
Pils 10kg (78.9%)
CaraMunich 40 650g (5.1%)
Dark Crystal/Special B 650g (5.1%)
Demerera Sugar 1370g (10.8%)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8915
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would lower the percentage of caramunich to more like 2 - 2.5 percent. Graham is correct to mention that this style does not have much crystal sweetness; the flavour is more about raisins and dark fruits, along with the distinctive Belgian yeast character.
 

brett matthews
Intermediate Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 264
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.95.127
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

thanks Bill, will do
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 5436
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Tuesday, May 27, 2008 - 10:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you can't get Special B, how about trying adding some raisins to the end of the boil? I've read in Brew Like A Monk that Tomme Arthur does this, and calls it his secret ingredient. I also recall a story in Zymurgy several years ago where he also carmelized the raisins in a pan on the stovetop, but I can't recall any of the details.
 

Dave Coppes
Member
Username: Pale_dave

Post Number: 190
Registered: 07-2006
Posted From: 24.91.11.44
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brett - this website has directions for toasting your own. There are directions for making special B from carapils. I haven't tried this with crystal malts, but I've toasted my own pale malt before with decent results. It probably won't be exactly what you would get if you found special B, but it would certainly be your own!

http://oz.craftbrewer.org/Library/Methods/Sanders/roasting.shtml

John Palmer's How-to-Brew website has instructions for toasting also, but no mention of Special B.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1680
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 02:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you can get Weyermann, try CaraAroma, which comes in at about 150L. Tasty stuff, but use it with restraint in a Dubbel.
 

tim roth
Advanced Member
Username: Hopdude

Post Number: 657
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 12.214.15.157
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 02:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

brett-
there's some great advice given but i will add from my experience;
The best Dubbel I've made was with #1762Belgian2. For sure use a few ounces of Special B or maybe the darkest crystal you can find. cheers,tim
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1683
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 03:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

See the "Rochefort" thread. Another vote for WY1762.

http://www.mrmalty.com/yeast.htm
 

brett matthews
Intermediate Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 265
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 220.235.95.127
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 09:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the advice on this, it really is very much appreciated. I'll drop the caramunich on the advice from Bill but will go with some dark crystal and see how it goes. I'll do another batch in the future using CaraAmber or Special B (if it becomes available) and see how much it differs.
Also, I go with the WY1762, sounds good.
 

Joakim Ruud
Advanced Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 961
Registered: 10-2005
Posted From: 84.208.79.179
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 10:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have a hunch that the fermentation characteristics of a properly fermented belgian would overpower the difference between Special B and Crystal 120. I haven't done any side-by-sides, though.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1684
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brett, one more thing: The liquid sugar that you can buy from homebrew shops is quite good and lends a more authentic flavor than would turbinado or dememerara sugar, although they have their own charms. I just saw this last night when I was shopping:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/pics/fullsize/Candisyrups.jpg

http://www.northernbrewer.com/sugars.html

I've never used these four specific products, but for a Dubbel, I'd go with the amber. (For a Tripel, I'd save the $7.99 and just use sucrose or maybe demerara if I was feeling saucy. For the darker syrups, however, having used the one version that has been available here in the U.S., I don't know of any substitute that is even in the ballpark for flavor.)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8920
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Graham, the substitute is to make your own candi syrup. It's not terribly difficult and duplicates the commercial product in terms of flavor. It's also a lot cheaper. With a little experience you can control the color.

I was forced into this alternative because the commercial syrup is not available in Canada and the one LHBS close enough to me on the other side of the border doesn't carry it. But actually I believe it was a happy find; I'm very pleased with what I can make myself. The only ingredients are white table sugar and an acid (I use cream of tartar).

I completely agree that clear candi sugar or syrup is an absolute waste of money. I've mentioned on a number of occasions that a GABF medal-winning tripel was brewed with white table sugar from the brewpub restaurant's kitchen. I must say I get a lot of mileage out of ordinary sugar; I also now use it for all of my priming.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6776
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 74.92.175.78
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 06:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I've tried making the candi syrup and my version wasn't even in the ballpark compared to the stuff that Brian Mercer imports. AFAIAC, the dark candi syrup (or even better, the D2) is essential for a dubbel.
 

brett matthews
Intermediate Member
Username: Brettj

Post Number: 266
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 124.150.96.111
Posted on Wednesday, May 28, 2008 - 10:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is Belgian candi sugar available at my LHBS but it is very expensive so I'm going to run with demerera or brown sugar. The good thing is that sugar down here is pretty cheap and the difference in price b/w white, brown, demerera etc in negligible.
Bill, corn syrup/sugar here is almost non existant so I've been using cane sugar from day one. I remember first getting on this forum and reading about using corn syrup for priming and getting in a panic that I'd been using the wrong thing! After finding corn syrup I quickly realised that using cane sugar was much easier to use
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8923
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 01:56 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, you and I are usually on similar wavelengths, so I find your experience with homemade candi syrup interesting. Mine is quite different. I brewed one batch of the Rochefort 8 clone with the commercial dark candi syrup (the D2 wasn't available at that time), which I ordered from Northern Brewer and had shipped to a US address. I thought it was quite flavorful and close to the original.

For the next batch I made my own candi syrup. It was quite dark, probably equivalent to the D2, so much so that I was a little worried about it. Unfortunately I no longer have any of either the two syrups with which to make a direct comparison.

If anything, this second beer is even richer in terms of flavor, with a noticeable dark fruit character even beyond plums, more like black currants. I just bottled it two weeks ago, and I've only tried a couple so far, but as it ages I will do a tasting with the earlier batch.

I'm wondering about your homemade candi syrup. How dark was it?
 

bill king
New Member
Username: Kingwj

Post Number: 8
Registered: 04-2008
Posted From: 68.80.1.27
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 03:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And don't be in a hurry to sample your Dubbel. It takes a while to mellow out. I have a Belgian Strong going on a month in the secondary, I may bottle it this weekend, or maybe not.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6778
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, Bill, I obviously haven't tried your syrup...sounds like it came a lot closer than my attempts. Good to know you've tried Brian's stuff so you can do a comparison. What was your recipe/technique?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8926
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 07:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, most of what I do is lifted from a post Jeff Renner made to the HBD some years ago. I wrote about it in BYO a couple of years back, which Steve Jones has transcribed and included in this collection: http://www.franklinbrew.org/brewinfo/candi_sugar.html

Since that time I might make few additional comments. One is that a large thick-bottomed saucepan works a little better for me than a skillet. Second, in a larger pan I can now melt about three cups of sugar at a time. I still use only a little more than 1 tsp. cream of tartar. And finally, the melted sugar continues to darken after it's taken off the heat, enough so that if you are seeking dark syrup you need to remove it from the heat when it's about the color of regular Kraft caramels. My last batch I took off the stove when it was rather dark. It ended up being about like the commercial D2 syrup, which turned out great in my Rochefort 8 clone but might not be appropriate in all situations.

Anyway, Denny, you might try it one more time. It's lots cheaper than the syrup Brian Mercer imports.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6783
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the info, Bill. I intend to give it a try as soon as I can.