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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2008 * Archive through May 30, 2008 * O'Fest < Previous Next >

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ChriSto
Intermediate Member
Username: Christo

Post Number: 377
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's getting late and I want to get an oktoberfest going (we have a late oktoberfest party so I guess I'm on time). I want to just do a single infusion. I read some earlier threads on single infusion recipes to use melanoidan malt to make up the maltiness that I won't get from a decoction. Question is how much?

Here's my planned recipe:
33% Pilsner
33% Vienna
28% Munich
2.3% Melanoidan
4.7% CaraMunich
bitter w/ whatever noble hop I can find at 27IBUs
WL 820 or 830
 

Little Dipper
Intermediate Member
Username: Littledipper

Post Number: 414
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 206.114.61.199
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, I think your recipe looks pretty good as is. I recently tried Melanoidin in a Pilsner at 2% and it seems just right. I think it's a 'little goes a long way' malt, so I think you should go with what you've got. Your recipe's very close to what I make for an O-fest as well and it's quite good, in my opinion.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1687
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, I'd bump up the melanoidin to 5% or so (i.e. 1/2 pound in a 10-pound grist) and lose the CaraMunich for style.

I made this this past fall:

Doppelbock (Bock)

A ProMash Brewing Session - Recipe Details Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 20.00
Anticipated OG: 1.084 Plato: 20.15
Anticipated SRM: 19.4
Anticipated IBU: 26.4
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
30.0 6.00 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany 1.037 3
30.0 6.00 lbs. Munich Malt Germany 1.037 8
30.0 6.00 lbs. Munich Malt(dark) Germany 1.033 16
10.0 2.00 lbs. Melanoidin Malt Germany 1.033 35

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.40 oz. Hallertauer Tradition Pellet 6.20 26.4 60 min.


Yeast
-----

White Labs WLP833 German Bock




I got a few, "Whoa! Are you nuts?" from the collective when I originally posted the recipe, but it was good - intensely malty but very good. Doing it again, I would dial back the dark Munich and the melanoidin a bit, but not very much - maybe 1/3, and compensate with the rest of the grain bill.
 

Little Dipper
Intermediate Member
Username: Littledipper

Post Number: 415
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 206.114.61.199
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I thought we were talking O-fests rather than Bocks?
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1688
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, since you mentioned using it in a Pilsner, I thought it might be appropriate to illustrate my most recent personal experience with it in a Bock, a not-totally-dissimilar style to Oktoberfest (and certainly a lot closer than a Pilsner.)

I'll try to stay in my lane from now on.
 

Little Dipper
Intermediate Member
Username: Littledipper

Post Number: 416
Registered: 02-2004
Posted From: 206.114.61.199
Posted on Thursday, May 29, 2008 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nope I'm with you now. No problem. I thought you were recommending your recipe for the O'fest, but you were showing how you used melanoidin. Sorry. Move along.
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1446
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 66.21.201.227
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 11:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris,

Your recipe is nearly identical to what I formulated a month or so ago. . less the melanoidin. One thing I haven't figured out is why there are so many recipes called O'fest that use totally different and varied grain bills.

Graham . . can you explain how using caramunich is out of bounds style wise?

danke . .
 

ChriSto
Intermediate Member
Username: Christo

Post Number: 379
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the responses.

Graham - my 5 gal batch will have 1/4 lb melanoidan, so I'm already about in line with your recommendation when scaled down. At only a 1/2 lb of cara Munich, I think I'll leave it in as I think I'll go for a slightly sweeter "American" version.

dhacker - I guess if you are really true to style, both Vienna and O'fest styles should be traditionally Vienna malt almost entirely with maybe a little Munich or Pilsner. It seems that the American versions usually add in crystal malts with a pale base to get a little more caramel sweetness and color vs. German traditional ones. A lot of the early homebrew recipes in books like the CBSS used crystal to get color and I guess that has stuck over time.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8928
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Obviously I'm not Graham, but here are four relevant quotes from the 2008 BJCP style guidelines for Oktoberfest/Marzen:

Caramel aroma is inappropriate.

Noticeable caramel or roasted flavors are inappropriate.

Smooth, clean and rather rich, with a depth of malt character. This is one of the classic malty styles, with a maltiness that is often described as soft, complex and elegant but never cloying.

Grist varies, although German Vienna malt is often the backbone of the grain bill, with some Munich malt, Pils malt and possibly some crystal malt.


It doesn't directly say caramunich malt is inappropriate, but it does seem to suggest that not very much of it should be used. I would not be seeking the aroma and flavor it tends to contribute.

(Message edited by BillPierce on May 30, 2008)
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 1447
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 70.146.180.136
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 12:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can only conclude then, that according to recipes I've dug up, not many folks brew O'fest to style.

I'm not a style Nazi/fanatic, but perhaps I should tweak my recipe yet some more to get it closer to traditional.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 8929
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.225.170
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 01:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Personally, I might consider a small portion of caravienna or lighter crystal malt in an O'fest recipe but certainly no more than 2 percent.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1690
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 208.54.95.144
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 02:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What Bill said.

Some people seem to think that a portion of caramel malt is mandatory in every recipe (like some people use wheat and/or carapils in every recipe. ) Not only is it not mandatory, in many styles (like traditional interpretations of Oktoberfest) it's not even desired. German styles in general never prominently feature caramel malts.

Oktoberfest is, however, one of those styles that is all over the map (like Robust Porter, as another example.) Evidently, in recent years the Germans have tended towards paler, Helles-type beers approaching Maibock strength, while the beers they brew for export are those that Americans tend to associate with the style - more amber or coppery and quite toasty. Neither version prominently features a caramel malt-type sweetness.

If you like caramel malt in your Oktoberfest, have at it. If I judged it at a competition, I would probably fault it if it were to exceed a subtle point of complexity. The style guidelines are not in any way ambiguous on this point. But, the beauty of homebrewing (and brewing in general) is that you can brew whatever you want, and then call it whatever you want.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 5447
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 02:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would strongly advise not to brew to style, and leave the caramunich in. Also increase the hops.

I usually brew a 1.060ish O'fest, about 30 IBUs but with significant flavor and aroma hops. It is way better tasting than the German bottles (Hacker-Pschorr, Ayinger, Spaten, Hofbrauhous) that show up in September at my fine beer store. My beer is maltier, thicker in mouthfeel, hoppier, and just all around better. Call it "Historical O'fest".

I like blending Hallertauer Mittelfrueh and Saaz for O'fests.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1691
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 208.54.95.144
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sacrilege!

(mmmm... Mittelfrueh )
 

ChriSto
Intermediate Member
Username: Christo

Post Number: 381
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
Posted on Friday, May 30, 2008 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was wondering when Chumley would join in the O'fest thread.

The hell with it, I'm keeping my recipe as is! Graham - you can ding me a few points in the next competition. BTW, thanks for the comments on my Maibock at BMO (rec'd last night) - right on the mark with what I was thinking.

This will be my first lager attempt in my newly reconfigured serving fridge - a side by side that "must" remain with freezer capabilities as per SWMBO. There is a 7-8F degree variation from top rack to bottom, so at highest temp setting its 43-44F on bottom and a hair over 50F on the top rack. I brewed my bock on the bottom shelf and it took 6 weeks in primary to ferment from 1.070 to 1.030 and then 3 months to get to around 1.017 in secondary a few ticks lower.

For the o'fest, I've beefed up supports for the rack to put the carboy on the top shelf but can still maintain my 3 kegs on the bottom still at a good serving temp or for secondary.