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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2008 * Archive through December 17, 2008 * Black IPA? Super hoppy Porter? < Previous Next >

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The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2093
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 03:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I made something of a Kitchen sink beer on Saturday. More in the hops department than malt.

Here it is... can you classify it? Tasted great in the sample jar - I can't wait to taste it. IBU's are theoretically over 200. I used over a pound of hops in 36l

Dead Mice Ale - 36 litres

8kg Maris Otter malt
1kg British 150 Crystal malt
300g British Chocolate malt
600g White cane sugar

FWH
110g Chinook
50g Challenger

30 Minutes Boil
75g Simcoe
75g Perle

10 minute Boil
40g Amarilo
56g Cascade

Steep
80g Saaz
25g Styrian
25g Goldings

Mashed 90 minutes at 66ºC
Boiled 90 minutes

og 1.058

Used WLP013 London Ale Yeast.

Should be interesting however it comes out.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1958
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd classify it "tasty".

Do we want to know what the name means?
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2094
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 05:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

errrr, no.
 

Tex Brewer
Intermediate Member
Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 334
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.203.59.252
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 06:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Holy cow. Is there any type of hops out there that you did NOT use? I have found that using too many kinds of hops sometimes muddles the flavor. Also, it seems like it may be out of balance with so much bitterness and relatively low gravity. But hey, this could turn out to be incredible. Please post after you try it, JB.

Stone's XI Anniversary brew was a black IPA. Excellent to my taste, although some beerionadoes I know did not like it as much. Their gravity was much higher at 1.086. IBUs listed as "LOTS."
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2095
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know Tex, I had all these bits of hops hanging around that needed using and enough malt for one brew so I thought why not? I've tried to kind of group them. Bittering hops. Simcoe and Perle are sort of in the middle as I don't really know what they are like. The cascade and Amarillo for that citric American flavour and then the spicy floral aroma of European hops.

I've come to the conclusion that balance is relative and if you have loads of hop character to back up a massive bitterness level, it creates its own balance. Granted you need malt to hang that bitterness off, but there are over two pounds of crystal in there for that. Plus the chocolate. My only worry is that the roasty flavours might fight the hoppiness.... but we'll see!

I'll keep you posted.
 

Ryan Messenger
Member
Username: Rem

Post Number: 135
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 74.34.7.108
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is funny because I went to sleep last night thinking about combining two of my favorite beer styles (IPA and porter) to make a hop monster with some dark, roasted grains. I look forward to you telling us how it came out.

As to whether it is a black IPA or an overly hopped porter, I think you get to pick; it clearly does not conform to a pre-determined style, and when you are creating your own amalgam beer I believe the rules go out the window. I personally am going to call mine “Frankenstein’s Monster” and let people speculate about what my intentions really were.

P.S. is the reason that you had "bits of hops hanging around" in any way related to the beer's name?
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1961
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 09:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bitterness from hops and bitterness from dark grains are different, but they don't really "fight". You only need to be careful that the total bitterness from both sources is in the right range. You've got a goodly amount of Crystal and not too much Chocolate, so I think you are fine.

Now I really DO want to know the source of the name! You've piqued my interest.
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2096
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I left a couple of bags of chocolate malt and crystal malt in a box in my shed where I keep all my kit and some mice got into them, gorged themselves on it, shat everywhere and then fell in my brew kettle and died. I found them half rotted and stinking.

I wasn't too pleased.

So I had to really clean and sterilise my kettle before boiling and dumping some water in it before I could brew in it again, but I think they deserved a little rememberance for their tenacity.
 

Matt C.
Junior Member
Username: Brewdad

Post Number: 62
Registered: 01-2008
Posted From: 146.145.232.186
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jolly-- Coincidentally, I had the same thing happen to me this weekend. I noticed mice had took refuge in my shed. When I started filling my carboys with hot water for cleaning, I noticed an awful smell. Low and behold, there was a dead mouse floating in the Carboy. No matter how much PBW and scrubbing I did, I cannot get rid of the smell in the carboy.

The results of the day were good, however, and Floating Mouse Mild Ale was born.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1963
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.46.245
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 12:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey, now I know.

I understand about tenacity. We had some mice get in the basement some years ago. Our THREE cats couldn't get rid of them. Tough little buggers.
 

Nathan Eddy
Member
Username: Nathan_eddy

Post Number: 240
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 74.131.224.35
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 04:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jolly Brewer, I think you will really enjoy this beer. I described in the Hop Flavor thread my "chocolate IPA." It is a basic IPA grain bill, 1/2 to 1 pound chocolate malt, and loads of hops. Even when I made a version around 1.050, and used about 1/2 pound of hops, the hops didn't overpower it. I think the creamy, roasty malt compliments the hops flavor and aroma nicely. However, I don't use many hops at the 60 minute mark--concentrating on late additions instead.

Next, I'm going to try it with a fruity Belgian yeast like 1388!
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 1966
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 04:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My tomcat is a stone-cold killer. Any kind of varmint short of a full-grown rat doesn't last long around here. He cleaned out the vole and chipmunk populations, and keeps the rats in check by eating all of the young ones. I haven't seen a mouse around here in years. I'll occasionally find a squirrel tail in the basement (makes me wonder what he did with the rest of it.) So far, my grain has been untouched by rodent paws.

Our now-departed female cats, on the other hand, mostly sat around and waited to be fed. I'll leave it to you to determine if a corollary exists.
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2098
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 11:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of my cats is a killer, the other is pathetic. But the shed is locked so they can't get in to see off the mice unfortunately.

I know what you mean about the smell Matt, it took a lot of cleaning and boiling to get it out.
 

Ryan Messenger
Member
Username: Rem

Post Number: 136
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 74.34.7.108
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of my cats is a killer, but only of spiders and bugs. I don't think he would know what to do with a rat. However, I have a couple dogs that would know what to do with it (beagle/terrier mix and a Jack Russel). One of them caught a squirrel a couple months ago.
 

Ryan Messenger
Member
Username: Rem

Post Number: 137
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 74.34.7.108
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 04:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nathan,

Do you forgo large additions of hops at 60 minutes to balance the bitter flavor of the dark grains and hops (as Paul mentioned), or do you have other reasons?
 

Nathan Eddy
Member
Username: Nathan_eddy

Post Number: 241
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 74.131.224.41
Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 06:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ryan, yeah that's a good explanation. Honestly, I didn't given it much thought. I just brewed a batch that was too bitter, so I backed off the 60 minute addition. But I still wanted intense hop flavor and aroma, so that was my focus.

Really, it's just a matter of taste. I do like an extremely bitter IPA or DIPA. But for a black IPA, I wanted the roasty malt as the foundation, and then layer massive amounts of floral and citrus on top of it.

So I guess your explanation is a good description of what I was going for. I just work on a more on an intuitive level, and never explained it like that (even to myself).

I've been using 1/2 ounce of Columbus at the 60 minute mark, and enjoyed the results. 4 or 5 ounces of various hops from 15 minutes to 0. 2 ounces dry hop.

I also like this brew a little sweeter than an IPA. I don't go too heavy on the crystal, but I might mash a bit higher, say 153-155. Come to think of it, maybe "black IPA" or "chocolate IPA" isn't the right description, considering these differences (IPAs are usually dryer and more bitter). Perhaps "hoppy porter" is better after all. But that's just the way I brew it. You might like it closer to an IPA, just with some chocolate malt added.
 

Ryan Messenger
Member
Username: Rem

Post Number: 138
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 74.34.7.108
Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 12:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nathan, thanks for the response. Your intuitive approach to brewing a black IPA (or a hoppy porter) reflects my own experience brewing porters, which is my favorite and most brewed beer.

I found that when I added a liberal amount of bittering hops, or even a medium amount,I tended to be disappointed with the result.

My favorite porters have been made by backing off the bittering hops, and I guess it makes sense to take the same approach to making a black IPA or a hoppy porter, whichever name people prefer to give it.
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2100
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 09:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I suppose if you were to make a true black IPA you'd use something like debittered black malt and cold steep it. Use minimal, if any crystal malt and basically brew an IPA but use the roasted malt for colour and a slight roasted flavour, but no bitterness. So essentially it would be a dry, bitter, hoppy beer but with a small amount of roasted flavour and a rich dark colour.

Sounds like a good area to experiment in.
 

Ryan Messenger
Member
Username: Rem

Post Number: 141
Registered: 10-2007
Posted From: 74.34.7.108
Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 10:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You know I just purchased some debittered malt... I knew there was a reason I wanted it.
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2101
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 10:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6311
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 65.29.223.32
Posted on Thursday, November 27, 2008 - 12:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Stone's XI Anniversary brew was a black IPA. Excellent to my taste, although some beerionadoes I know did not like it as much. Their gravity was much higher at 1.086. IBUs listed as "LOTS."

I had a taste of that last night at a local bar. Very nice sip'pin brew!
 

Nathan Eddy
Member
Username: Nathan_eddy

Post Number: 243
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 74.131.227.29
Posted on Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I had about a dozen XI bombers in the first few months after it came out. They were very hoppy and delicious. After about six months, there was a noticeable drop-off in hop flavor. It was still a good brew, but nothing like it was at the beginning. I imagine it is even farther away from its initial glory by now.
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2116
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.83.101.254
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

UPDATE: This tastes quite stunning. Although the fg was quite high at about 1.016 it tastes pretty dry. Very bitter, but not harsh. Roasty and very hoppy. I like it a lot. There is definitely room for experimentation here.
 

Nathan Eddy
Member
Username: Nathan_eddy

Post Number: 247
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 74.131.225.51
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fantastic! Glad it turned out well. 1.016 isn't bad. I bet it tends to bring out the roasty flavors even more.
 

The Jolly Brewer
Senior Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 2117
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 92.233.31.3
Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yees, it's pretty roasty.