| Author |
Message |
    
Sean Gross
New Member
Username: Sgross12
Post Number: 1
Registered: 03-2010
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 08:34 pm: | 
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Hello to all. I am an architecture student from UDM in Detroit Michigan. I am currently working on a project for a design of a brewery. I have done some researching but I feel it best to hear from active brewers such as yourselves to hear what you might have to say. If you could please respond to what you as a brewer would like in your own brewery and then also what you would like to see in a brewery/restaurant from a customer point of view would be great. Thanks to anyone who posts their opinion, each will be considered into designing the brewery. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11457
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 09:23 pm: |
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Sean, I moved your message into the active discussion area.
All of us here are homebrewers, although a few of us have some commercial craft brewing experience. In terms of the process, it is very much the same, but the equipment can be rather different. Almost all of us are brewing batches in the range of 5 to 30 gallons, more typically 5-15 gallons. Most commercial craft brewing systems in pubs and restaurants are in the range of 150-450 gallons, typically 150-300 gallons.
When you brew batches of that size, there are more than a few differences in the equipment compared to that used by homebrewers. Therefore what we use is only partially relevant to the craft brewing environment.
If you haven't already done so, I hope you begin to visit some of the brewpubs and craft breweries in the Detroit and southeastern Michigan area. There are quite a number of them, and knowing craft brewers as I do, I suspect several of them will be quite forthcoming with opinions and advice. It is very much worth seeking them out.
As for what we would like to see from a customer point of view, I think the collective here is extremely qualified in that area.
Good luck with your project. Craft brewing is a risky business but it can be rewarding in terms of the product if not always the profit. |
tim roth
Advanced Member
Username: Hopdude
Post Number: 786
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 207.118.250.223
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 09:39 pm: |
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...like to see in a brewery/restaurant.
Several great beer selections is a must. Seasonal choices are a good idea too.
The restaurant must have fantastic french fries!!
cheers,tim |
Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid
Post Number: 827
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 10:26 pm: |
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Sean, take a look at the pictures page and associated links as well as the library. You will find all the information you desire. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11459
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2010 - 10:54 pm: |
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This is not a design issue, but I think it bears repeating that homebrewers are often among a brewpub's best customers. Find a brewer who wants to cultivate a relationship with local homebrewers and clubs. This shouldn't be hard to do, as a majority of craft brewers started as homebrewers. The support of loyal customers who intimately understand and appreciate the product is obviously a huge asset. Positive word of mouth is the best advertising you can have. |
Jeff Rankert
Member
Username: Hopfenundmalz
Post Number: 174
Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 76.122.185.66
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 01:05 am: |
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Sean, you need to start from the bottom up.
At the National Homebrewers Conference last year there was a panel discusion on going pro. My 2 take aways were:
The floors and drains are more important than you would think.
The other is that you need big $ for most operations on start up, you can't have too much $(some said to fix the floors and drains after you start). ;-). |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11461
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 01:50 am: |
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Yes, infrastructure is important; the foundation, floors and plumbing are the literal support of the brewery. Restaurant people tend to think about revenue per square foot and the brewery as a cost center rather than a revenue source. But resist that notion and give the brewer enough area to work comfortably. He (or she) will brew better beer with less effort and in less time. If you have to utilize more than one level, provide an easy way to move materials as well as the brewer. Try to create a space that's pleasant and comfortable to work in; brewing is demanding physical work. Consult with building, health and safety inspectors to prevent potential problems so that they don't become budget-busting and deadline-beating retrofits.
And if possible, spend some time to hire the right brewer before you open, and make him or her an integral part of the planning process. It will facilitate that person taking ownership and continuing to be around. Brewer turnover can be costly; they aren't as interchangeable as some people want you to believe. |
Alec
Junior Member
Username: Pdxal
Post Number: 51
Registered: 03-2009
Posted From: 71.214.90.132
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 06:08 am: |
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Hi Sean,
As a beer snob, home brewer, and frequent brewpub customer I would offer up, besides what other folks on here suggest:
Having windows between brewery and restaurant/pub for patrons to view the brewery is nice, and a large bar with multiple taps for easy access to product for multiple patrons is always nice. I also think that the best places are designed from the ground up, and would incorporate the elements needed for a nice, successful restaurant and lots of space for the brewers to operate with multiple levels and concrete floors with drains in them and easy access for product delivery/storage/movement into production area. |
Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett
Post Number: 2456
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.45.166
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 12:16 pm: |
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To amplify what has been touched on above: always put the needs of the humans who will use a space above the aesthetics of the space itself. In this case, that will mean collecting real data on the ergonomics of brewing, food preparation, and serving. Collecting info here is a great start and shows that you have your priorities straight.
Here's a counter-example: I'm sure that the relevant health and safety codes vary state by state, but here in CT, the brewing space and equipment does not need to be physically separate from the serving floor. The designs of many brewpubs incorporate the machinery and vessels as part of the decor. Shiny copper mashing and boiling vessels, bright stainless fermentation tanks, catwalks, etc. -- when done right, it can look really great.
Unfortunately, trying to brew beer as you step around patrons, all of whom want your attention, can make an already-difficult task much harder. It also severely restricts how much power-washing and chemical clean-up you can do on the exterior of the equipment.
As a result, most of the brewpub brewers I've met around here choose to brew in the early mornings, before the place opens. They start at 3:00am so they can be cleaned up and out before the doors open for lunch.
In other words, the brewers have replaced the missing physical (if see-through) separation which they want but don't have with a temporal separation which is much more isolating. All the patrons ever see is idle (although sometimes wet) equipment. As far as they can tell, the beer comes in on a truck and the equipment is just for show. They feel no connection with the brewer, whom they never meet, or the process, which they never see. A big piece of the brewpub experience is missing.
I hope that is of some benefit. Good luck with your project.
(Message edited by paulhayslett on March 18, 2010) |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 1867
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.240.223.178
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 12:38 pm: |
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To amplify what Paul H said:
Be sure to spend some considerable time considering the safety and lighting of the working space. Breweries can be wet, hot places. Some use natural gas as a heat source, some use steam. A broken steam line can be a dangerous thing indeed. Making sure that all valves, or anything else a brewery worker needs to be able to reach are accessible goes a long way. Make sure they can see what they're touching.
I've had the opportunity to work in three different brewpubs (as grain boy for a few days for friends who owned the pubs). While they all meet local codes, they differed in what I'd call safe if they were my brewery.
When I did aircraft systems engineering design for the US Navy & USMC, system safety was always our top priority, ahead of everything else.
Good luck with your project. Keep us posted on the progress. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 7023
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.83.191.159
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 02:08 pm: |
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When I go to a brewpub, I want to see steam and smell boiling wort. It is rare to experience this. |
Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett
Post Number: 2457
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.45.166
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 02:31 pm: |
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I had that experience going to the Kona Brewery in Hawaii. We were a little lost on the walk there but just followed the smell of the mash from 2 blocks away. It was heavenly.
Too often, my experience has been the opposite. The brewer is never on-premise when patrons are around. Tours are led by a busboy who doesn't know squat. The only activity I am likely to see is the bubbling of a blow-off tube somewhere. |
John Ferens
Intermediate Member
Username: John_ferens
Post Number: 297
Registered: 05-2003
Posted From: 192.104.24.222
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 04:01 pm: |
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I'd add to the above that, yes, I too would enjoy watching the brew process during a visit - that doesn't happen often.
Also, there's an intangible "feel" to any establishment. Given that many customers are home brewers and most others might be considered, in my opinion, of a more down-to-earth inclination, I've never enjoyed the hoity-toity (i.e.: fancy, pretentious, etc.)decors of some brew-pubs. Instead, I like a comfortable, friendly, and welcoming atmosphere.
One such place I've really enjoyed is North Country Brewing in Slippery Rock, PA: http://www.northcountrybrewing.com/welcome.htm It's a great place with lots of custom wood furniture, carvings, etc. It also has a very nice, secluded yet large patio/garden area. The one downside of this place is that the brew house is very cramped.
As far as a working brewery goes, I think Penn Brewery does a good job of both showing a majority of the brewing equipment while sealing it off so patrons can enjoy the restaurant - it's mostly a two-story brewery with many fermentation/lagering tanks below, in addition to portions of the mash/hlt/kettles. Penn closed for a period during ownership transitions, but has re-opened. You'll see bits of the brewery here: http://www.pennbrew.com/data/english/youtube.htm
Have fun with your project! |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11462
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 05:33 pm: |
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If you really want to see things from a brewer's perspective, spend a day (all day) with a brewer. It will open your eyes to the fact that it's basically an industrial, highly physical job. Most craft breweries are so severely undercaptialized that they have to substitute the labor of the brewer for expensive automation. But anything you can to eliminate unnecessary effort will be greatly appreciated.
I agree that it's disappointing for customers not to be able to see brewing take place. Paul H. is probably correct about the reason most brewers are finished with much of the actual brewing before the pub is filled with lunchtime customers. I think, too, that some owners and managers feel that the gritty industrial side of the process is at odds with the high-end ambiance they seek to create. I would beg to differ with them. If the brewing space is designed properly (separated by glass but still highly visible by customers), I think watching brewing take place is a fascinating educational experience that many people would enjoy. Yes, I would have the brewer's typical shift begin about the time the first customers arrive and extend into the early evening. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 7024
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.83.191.159
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 06:41 pm: |
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I used to volunteer at the late Oldenburg brewery in Northern KY back in the day. It was not simply watching the action. It was turn this, dump that, watch there . . . |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 1869
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.240.223.178
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 06:50 pm: |
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At one place where I helped out on several occasions, we started about 8 or 8:30 in the morning, and finished up maybe 4 or 5 in the afternoon. It was funny to look thru the windows into the restaurant about noon and suddenly realize you were being watched.
I felt like an animal in the zoo...
"PLEASE DO NOT
Abuse, aggravate, agitate, alarm, anger, annoy, badger, beset, bother, bullyrag, disquiet, distress, disturb, exasperate, fluster, frighten, frustrate, goad, harass, harm, harry, hassle, heckle, hound, hurt, intimidate, irritate, jeer, maltreat, molest, nettle, persecute, perturb, pester, plague, provoke, rattle, ruffle, scare, shock, tantalize, tease, torment, torture, tousle, upset, vex or worry
the BREWERS."
(Message edited by pedwards on March 18, 2010) |
Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett
Post Number: 2458
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.45.166
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 08:23 pm: |
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Here are some pics of local brewpubs which show "The CT Way". The first two are from the closest pub in a little 5-pub chain. (Right in my town, but, alas, the beer ain't so great.)
http://www.southportbrewing.com/cms/modules/PhotoGallery/front/lib/poppreview.ph p?id=45
and
http://www.southportbrewing.com/cms/modules/PhotoGallery/front/lib/poppreview.ph p?id=46
You can see that the brewing equipment is only separated from the tables by a little half-wall, and the fermentors are up above the bar. Looks fantastic. Not so safe for either brewer or patrons.
Another pub in the same chain:
http://www.southportbrewing.com/cms/modules/PhotoGallery/front/lib/poppreview.ph p?id=53
BruRm @ BAR is another nearby brewpub with "award-winning design". (If you read BYO, you've read about this place. Terry Foster brews there when he is in the States.) Their web site is far too fancy to allow something as useful as links directly to the pics. Go to http://www.barnightclub.com, click on "BruRoom", then on the top thumbnail on the right.
You'll see that, at BAR, there isn't even a half-wall between the equipment and the patrons. The nearest table is about 2 feet from the grant/hopback. You can't see from the pics, but fermentors are all over the place; you can just reach over and mess with the valves.
As I said, this is NOT the way to design a working brewpub! |
Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett
Post Number: 2459
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.45.166
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 08:29 pm: |
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I stand corrected. You can see some of the fermentors at BAR if you go to their site, click on "FrontRoom" and then on the bottom thumbnail. Imagine trying to work when that room is full of people. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11464
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2010 - 11:51 pm: |
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If anything, watching the brewer work might make customers feel smug as they dine and drink. When I was a craft brewer I occasionally received looks that said, "While you're busting your butt there, I'm sitting here schmoozing with clients on the company expense account." |
Mike Vachow
Member
Username: Mike
Post Number: 188
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 71.157.162.69
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 01:16 pm: |
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. . . . and after you get done spending all of that money on the brewing equipment and its role in the aesthetics of the restaurant, you can revel in the understanding that it and the beer it produces will have only a minor role in the overall success of the business. Brewpubs live and die by the same criteria that denote the success of other privately owned restaurants. Without ample and easily accessible parking, good food and great service, the 5 homebrewers who show up looking to cadge some yeast and have a pint of the pub's world class triple decocted pils, these blokes, I'm afraid, won't keep the joint afloat.
Mike
St. Louis |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11466
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 01:43 pm: |
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Of course Mike is correct. Despite what you might think, the marriage of serving food and beer can be a rocky one. Typically a brewbub's revenue is more than 70 percent from food rather than the bar. Brewpubs live and die based on location, the quality of the food and service, the tastes and whims of their customers, and the vagaries and multiple potential reasons for failure in the restaurant business in general. For those reasons, the brewery and the beer are less significant in the eyes of owners and managers. There have been many brewpubs that have gone out of business despite brewing and serving excellent beer, and some that survive while serving mediocre beer.
(Message edited by BillPierce on March 19, 2010) |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11467
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 02:13 pm: |
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You know, I have to conclude that the brewing business is just plain difficult. As a homebrewer, you understand and appreciate the product, and enjoy the process of making it. You and your friends are pleased with the results. You begin to wonder if there isn't a way to transform your passion into a living.
Then the realities confront you. For all the reasons I mentioned in my post immediately above, brewpubs are very risky businesses and depend on food far more than the beer. Moreover, you must become a destination for your customers; they have to decide it's worth leaving home to patronize your establishment.
So you decide that it's better to focus on beer only and start a microbrewery. Suddenly you are faced with an entirely new set of concerns and problems that include packaging, distribution and succeeding against some very well entrenched businesses in a highly competitive market.
In addition, the legal climate in which you have to operate is highly conflicting and restrictive. Laws that are relics of your great gandfather's time govern multiple aspects of your business and control what and where and when and how you can sell your product.
What's a brewer to do? No wonder Charlie Papazian said, "Relax, don't worry, have a homebrew!" |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 7026
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.83.191.159
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 05:40 pm: |
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I am planing to transition from a microbrewery toward a brewpub, discovering the hard way what Bill said. Fortunately, my location is getting a big goose from the university across the street which is expanding quickly in my direction. I am going to attempt to do it with minimal food. Perhaps Bill's prior observation will come into play then. Unless I develop a huge skill set quickly or can find someone with it, I believe that I would just cash in the building and go fishing on the river. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11471
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 07:35 pm: |
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Dan, I've been in brewpubs that had great beer and sought a high-end clientèle with award-winning chefs, special rooms with humidors and imported cigars, and valet parking. But the most successful brewpub operations where I've been in the past several years are the Pizza Ports in southern California. The menu is simple and unpretentious, the atmosphere extremely casual, and of course the beer is top-notch. The locations were jam-packed and rockin' every time I was there.
It's hard to think of a campus location where another pizza joint couldn't make it, especially one with its own beer. The pies don't have to be world class, just not suck. The investment in a pizza kitchen shouldn't break your back financially. You would need a manager (or perhaps two individuals) with pizza and bar experience. But that would seem to me to be your best chance (yes, probably still risky) of success. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 7029
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.83.191.159
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 07:49 pm: |
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A guy tried that in Oxford, Oh, home of Miami University, a few years ago. I think his problem was location and building size, not to mention parking.
The new College of Business building is a stone's throw from here, across its parking lot. It might be nice to figure out a way to cater to the suits without the hassle of being a full blown restaurant. I am not sure pizza would do it. |
Jeff Rankert
Member
Username: Hopfenundmalz
Post Number: 175
Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 76.122.185.66
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 08:06 pm: |
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At the NHC, Vinnie Cilurzo had a line that made me laugh. The menu at Russian River is not large, and mostly Pizza, which is pretty good. They don't have a deep fryer. So the kitchen staff says:
"If you can't bake it, we don't make it". |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 11472
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.103.148
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 08:25 pm: |
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I liked Russian River. I recall the pizza was all right, too (not quite as good as Pizza Port), but of course it's the beer that stays most in my memory.
Dan, I understand what you are trying to do. Sandwiches might also do well for you. If you can keep the kitchen small and simple, and avoid hiring a wait staff beyond occasionally having to clear tables for customers who are too lazy to do it themselves, I think you have a better chance of success. Often it's the employees who are your biggest liability. They don't have the same motivation and incentive to work as hard as you do. In fact, sometimes they work against you rather than for you. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 7030
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 74.83.191.159
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 08:32 pm: |
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Frying involves a hood - very expensive. |
Jeff Rankert
Member
Username: Hopfenundmalz
Post Number: 176
Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 76.122.185.66
| | Posted on Friday, March 19, 2010 - 10:04 pm: |
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Dan - Frying, I also understand the insurance goes way up, but I am not in the food business.
Bill - I have not been to Pizza Port, but we have plans to correct that soon with a California road trip. Friends say to stop there and at Stone for the food, the beer is a bonus.  |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 3920
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 66.32.242.67
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 01:50 am: |
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Frying involves a hood - very expensive.
And a grease trap - not cheap either.
Our newest expanded brewpub is 5 Seasons Westside and they have the most beautiful set of brewing vessels I've ever seen. Only problem is that they're in the basement. Told them they need a brewcam and a big screen upstairs. Just got back from their N location for crawfish, gumbo and beer, Yea! |
dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 2050
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 74.177.60.105
| | Posted on Sunday, March 21, 2010 - 12:37 pm: |
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Hey Vance,
Thanks for the recommendation of 5 Seasons. Sorry about my tardy call to get together. Regardless, we did indeed go down into the bowels of the brewery to see the "Coppers". Really pretty. Crawford(?) was very accommodating and I get the impression he is quite proud of the vessels and more than ready to show them off. And yes, a shame they aren't more visible. |
Josh
New Member
Username: Jojox
Post Number: 18
Registered: 07-2008
Posted From: 208.116.141.34
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 - 08:01 pm: |
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I was very impressed with Stone. I didn't take a brewery tour, and I don't know how it all worked in the back rooms and whatnot, but the customer experience was great - huge room with nice dining area, koy pond, enormous glass walls and nice view of the brewery, stairs and balconies in cool places. Large outdoor area with fire pits and some kind of nature walk. I was really impressed, much more "design" than my local (Victory) which seems to keep it on the budget-sensitive end of things. |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 3932
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 66.32.140.235
| | Posted on Thursday, April 01, 2010 - 01:56 am: |
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Hack, glad you got the tour and Crawford was there. See some barrels sitting around with beers aging? He's finally got the room to do a lot of those. Crawford is always agreeable to talk to homebrewers and show them around. Good beers too. |
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Brews and Views Archive 2010 
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