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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2011 * Archive through March 01, 2011 * Denny -- Westmalle Clone -- Look good? < Previous Next >

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Michael
Senior Member
Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1044
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 24.74.82.242
Posted on Friday, August 20, 2010 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny....I was wanting to confirm if this is the current version of your Westmalle clone (I got it from another site)....I have a nice starter of 3787 going, and picked up all ingredients, including a sack of Dingemans Pils....any tweaks you have made would be appreciated. I'll send you a bottle! (If I can keep the wife out of it ). Thanks...Michael


254 Westcoastmalle

A ProMash Recipe Report

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 5.50 Wort Size (Gal): 5.50
Total Grain (Lbs): 15.00
Anticipated OG: 1.091 Plato: 21.9
Anticipated SRM: 3.8
Anticipated IBU: 32.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 82 %
Wort Boil Time: 70 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 1.50 Gallons Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 7.25 Gal
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.069 SG 16.90 Plato


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
80.0 12.00 lbs. Pilsener Belgium 1.037 2
20.0 3.00 lbs. Cane Sugar 1.047 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 oz. Czech Saaz Pellet 3.80 3.6 First WH
2.00 oz. Hallertauer Whole 4.80 23.1 60 min.
0.50 oz. Tettnanger Tettnang Pellet 4.00 4.1 30 min.
1.00 oz. Czech Saaz Pellet 2.80 1.5 5 min.


Extras

Amount Name Type Time
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
1.00 Tsp Irish Moss Fining 15 Min.(boil)


Yeast
-----

WYeast 3787 Trappist High Gravity
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7440
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 99.196.224.56
Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2010 - 08:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's it, Michael! Let me know when it's ready! :-)
 

Michael
Senior Member
Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1047
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 143.165.8.50
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2010 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks! Am going to step up the starter in the next couple of days and let her rip. I plan on brewing this and bottling for holiday gifts (not really a leap of faith since this is a Denny special).
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7442
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 99.196.224.56
Posted on Monday, August 23, 2010 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A good friend of mine started making this about 8 months ago and keeps rebrewing it since she loves it so much. She's done really well with it in comps, too. Hope ya enjoy it!
 

Tom Fries
Junior Member
Username: Tfries

Post Number: 87
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 208.83.194.176
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 01:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

She'll be making it again on Sunday. It will be her fourth time brewing it. It's kind of cool when your wife can brew a beer as awesome as this one.
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1163
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 173.9.91.69
Posted on Saturday, September 04, 2010 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Speaking of Westmalle like Dubbels...

I have brewed this twice now with no tweaking and it is dead on to that westmalle taste


East Kingston Dubbel

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

18-B Belgian Strong Ale, Belgian Dubbel

Min OG: 1.062 Max OG: 1.075
Min IBU: 15 Max IBU: 25
Min Clr: 10 Max Clr: 14 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 22.00 Wort Size (Gal): 22.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 49.50
Anticipated OG: 1.072 Plato: 17.5
Anticipated SRM: 13.3
Anticipated IBU: 24.8
Brewhouse Efficiency: 83 %
Wort Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Daniels


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
44.4 22.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
44.4 22.00 lbs. Vienna Malt Germany 1.037 3
6.7 3.30 lbs. Demerara Sugar 1.047 0
2.2 1.10 lbs. CaraVienna France 1.035 20
2.2 1.10 lbs. Chocolate Wheat Malt Germany 1.030 375

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
4.40 oz. Styrian Goldings Whole 5.25 19.1 90 min.
1.32 oz. Tettnanger Tettnang Whole 4.50 4.9 90 min.
1.32 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 3.50 0.7 5 min.


Yeast
-----

DCL T58 T-58


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 46.20
Water Qts: 69.30 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 17.33 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.50 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 155 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 70


Total Mash Volume Gal: 21.17 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.
 

Tony Legge
Advanced Member
Username: Boo_boo

Post Number: 502
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 174.118.73.14
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 09:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've just opened my first ever Westmalle Dubbel.
First positive experience with a Belgium beer as all the rest I have tried tasted like bandaids.
Really nice flavour.
Looking at both recipes, I would assume Scotts to be more accurate to style since the colour is a lot more than 3.8 and would seem to be more like 13. Also the flavour seems more like there's more in there than just pils and sugar.
Looks like it is something I'm going to brew later this fall.
Thanks for posting this thread.
 

Jeff Rankert
Member
Username: Hopfenundmalz

Post Number: 240
Registered: 06-2008
Posted From: 76.122.174.139
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The first recipe is the Tripel, the second is the Dubbel.

Denny - what fermentation temps do you use? Follow "Brew Like a Monk" would be my guess.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 11954
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.101.115
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 10:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, Tony, Denny's recipe is for the Westmalle Tripel, and Scott's is for the Dubbel. The latter recipe is innovative for using chocolate wheat malt rather than Special B; most people consider Special B the signature malt for Belgian dubbels and dark strong ales. I will say that chocolate wheat malt added a pleasant, notable character to the weizenbock I brewed.

If you don't like the bubblegum phenolics (or "bandaids" as you describe it) in your Belgian styles, you might consider fermenting the Westmalle strain (Wyeast 3787 or White Labs WLP530) cool (low 60s F). At that temperature the yeast brings out the malt rather than the phenolics.
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1168
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 173.9.91.69
Posted on Monday, September 06, 2010 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For what it is worth I stumbled onto that recipe as far as Westmalle goes

I was just brewing a Dubbel... yet... It tastes just like Westmalle so I got lucky
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7455
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jeff, I start it in the low 60s and let it go into the low-mid 70s after about 5 days to a week.
 

Tony Legge
Advanced Member
Username: Boo_boo

Post Number: 505
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 174.118.73.14
Posted on Monday, September 13, 2010 - 10:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chocolate wheat malt is about as scarce as hens teeth here. In fact it is the first I have heard of it.
Gonna have to see where I can source it here. Scotts recipie looks one I may try later in the year when it cools down a little, like now.
 

Chris Clements
New Member
Username: Clem

Post Number: 9
Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 24.178.71.173
Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2010 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny,

How long do you condition the WestCoastmalle before kegging?

I'm going to brew this.

Thanks!
 

Chris Clements
New Member
Username: Clem

Post Number: 10
Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 24.178.71.173
Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2010 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Can I also have your mash temp? Do you add sugar at flameout?

Thanks again!
 

Michael
Senior Member
Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1063
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 143.165.48.50
Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2010 - 02:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To keep this thread alive (I started it ), I brewed this (finally) on 9/30. I ended up making a lower OG Belgian with the Wy3787 in early September and used the cake for this monster.

This is one of the few recipes I have brewed EXACTLY to the original recipe spec. The only thing I missed was the OG and ended with 1.085. My 10 gallon system loses efficiency when I drop down to 5 gallons, and I did not totally take that into account, I suppose.

In any case, I did pitch onto the yeast cake of the prior 3787 batch. I started out at 65f and held around 68f for the first few days....massive, massive intial fermentation (must be all of that sugar!). Have held in primary around 70f for 10 days now....

Gravity a few days ago was 1.038 and it is still slowly chugging along.

I think I will bump it up to the mid-70'sf as Denny mentions above. Any comments on how quickly this yeast tends to do it's job? Having just fermented another batch this summer with 3724, I know how painfully slow that can be.

Thanks again Denny....the aroma from the airlock is pretty damn' good.

Michael

(Message edited by hoppop on October 14, 2010)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12034
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.101.115
Posted on Thursday, October 14, 2010 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've never brewed Denny's Westmalle recipe, but I have used Wyeast 3787 on several occasions. I've found it to be medium in terms of its fermenting speed, of course slower at lower temperatures. As I've mentioned on a few occasions, this strain is something of a chameleon. Fermented in the mid to upper 70s F, it's fruity and somewhat phenolic, while at lower temperatures (low 60s F) it's quite malty, enough so that I have always considered it a candidate for a biere de garde.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7461
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 208.85.238.153
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2010 - 04:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Conditioning...no more than a couple weeks, usually less

"Can I also have your mash temp? Do you add sugar at flameout? "....sugar goes in at the beginning of the boil. Mash temp 148 for 90 min.
 

Michael
Senior Member
Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1070
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 143.165.48.50
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 03:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Three weeks in primary....took the gravity on this last night....down to 1.010, which puts the ABV at ~10%. The hydro sample was incredible...smooth....some phenolics, spice and fruit qualities. No hot alcohol burn....dangerous.

Will bottle here soon for upcoming holiday gifts (not all, but some). Denny, thanks again....this is turning out to be a winner (which I did not doubt).
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7463
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 75.145.77.185
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Glad ya like it, Michael. It's my favorite tripel recipe.
 

Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob

Post Number: 614
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When I add sugar, i always do it in the last 5 minutes of the boil so, I don't effect hop utilization. Just my ROT
 

Tex Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 604
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.203.59.252
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 09:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Per another thread a while back, cane sugar can be inverted depending on pH and boil time. At the pH of normal wort, it takes a while. So to avoid the possibility of cidery flavors (I know, Bill, you poo pooh that), if using cane sugar (instead of Belgian candi), I would boil it the full 90 minutes. Add a little extra hops if you think it affects your utilization.
 

Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob

Post Number: 615
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 10:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cidery flavors are from old tainted extract. Also, yeast know what to do when they meet sugar...they excrete an enzyme....drum roll please.... invertase!
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12065
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.101.115
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 10:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The jury is out on this subject (table sugar and cidery flavors), but TB makes a point for those who want to be cautious about it.
 

Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob

Post Number: 617
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 10:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Agreed Bill but, I still think it is an Urban Brewing Legend IMO. YMMV
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12066
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.101.115
Posted on Thursday, October 21, 2010 - 11:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I'm in your camp, but I don't want the nervous nellies to get their shorts in a bind and say we don't pay any attention to their concerns.

In general this strikes me as one of those subjects for discussion on the "green board."
 

Michael
Senior Member
Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1071
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 24.74.82.242
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 12:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I added the sugar in Dennys recipe in the last 30 minutes. Are you saying my beer will s*ck? Tastes mighty fine to me at this point!

(Message edited by hoppop on October 22, 2010)
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7464
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 208.85.238.153
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 04:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"When I add sugar, i always do it in the last 5 minutes of the boil so, I don't effect hop utilization. Just my ROT"...I use Promash, which figures hop additions based on the total gravity of your boil. If I added sugar late, it would throw off my hop calcs. Not by much, but I can't see any reason not to add it early.

TB, AFAIK, candi rocks are not inverted.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 6177
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So....I just finished brewing Denny's recipe. My only tweaks were to add a couple of more pounds of pilsner malt to account for my lower efficiency (Denny's recipe says 82%, I know I am closer to 65%), and I used an ounce of Tetts instead of half an ounce.....just because. Also, I used WLP530 abbey ale yeast (stepped up in a 3 L starter), but I understand that both it and WY3787 are Westmalle, so that shouldn't matter.

I hit 1.090 on the nose.

I'm hoping this one will be ready by December 7 for the office open house...it would be a good one to serve to the clients. I used a teaspoon of Wyeast yeast nutrient and oxygenated the crap out of the wort, so I am hoping for good fermentation.

If it isn't ready, I probably will go with the cream ale I brewed on Labor Day. Here it is, 6 weeks later, three in the lagering fridge....and that damn WY1007 yeast still hasn't dropped yet.
 

Tex Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 606
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.203.59.252
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 05:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First, I would recommend syrup instead of the rocks. Now, do I dare challenge the great Denny? No way. But Wikipedia says:
Candi sugar is a Belgian sugar commonly used in brewing, especially in stronger, Belgian beers such as dubbel and trippel. Chemically, it is an invert sugar: one that has been converted from sucrose to a mixture of fructose and glucose by heating with water and some acid (usually citric acid). It is used to boost the alcohol content without adding extra body to the beer, and without forcing the yeast to produce invertase.

Sciencebrewer says:
All homebrewers brewing abbey beers know that authentic Belgian candi sugar or syrup is a key ingredient. Unfortunately homebrew supply stores capitalize on this commodity and sell Belgian candi sugar or “rocks” at inflated prices. This item is no different from invert sugar, or sucrose (table sugar) that has been turned into fructose and glucose and subsequently crystallized.

Brewlikeamonk says something a little different:
In the past couple of weeks I’ve read several references that would indicate Belgian brewers the use “candi sugar,” the most recent being in The Naked Pint: An Unadulterated Guide to Craft Beer. No they don’t, not if you are talking about those rocklike hunks sold as “candy” or “candi” sugar in the United States. ...
To boost alcohol, fermentability, and produce what Belgians refer to as a “more digestible” beer, plain sucrose¯the stuff you can buy at your local grocery store¯works just as well as clear candi sugar (rocks). The dark, rummy character that comes from caramelized sugar is harder to duplicate, and certainly not by using American brown sugar.
Candi sugar: References to “candi sugar” when Belgian brewers began using such an ingredient most often described caramel syrup, not the clear to dark rocks sold in the United States as “Belgian candi sugar.” The rocks you liquefy by tossing into a kettle are made by lowering cotton strings with seed crystals into hot solutions of sugar.

Finally, Ted Hausotter published an article in Zymurgy where he tested various sugars added to a tripel recipe. Sugars were added to the secondary (no boiling). The Belgian came out the best in several taste tests, and the sucrose was often described as cidery.

Bottom line: I use Belgian candi syrup in recipes. If you want to save money, adding sucrose at the start of the boil is probably the safest way to go.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7465
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 208.85.238.153
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 06:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Now, do I dare challenge the great Denny? No way."...oh, please!

I take issue with Ted's experiment unless you add sugar to the fermenter as he did. I don't do that, and most Belgian brewers don't do it, either. Like you, I use the syrup for any dark sugar additions, but I use table sugar (as Stan points out in BLAM) for light sugar additions. I've tried the lighter versions of the syrup, but I don't find them to offer and advantages over table sugar.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12072
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.101.115
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 08:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm with Denny about this subject.

More than 10 years ago I asked a brewpub brewer (who has since gone on to great success, but I promised the source of his remarks would remain "off the record") about the recipe for his GABF silver medal-winning tripel. He told me he added ordinary white sugar from the restaurant's kitchen at flameout. That was enough for me.

I do agree with Stan Hieronymus that the amber and dark "Belgian candi syrup" now imported to the US is a different matter. This to me is one of the keys to authentic tasting darker Belgian styles. This commercial candi syrup is not available to homebrewers in Canada, and I'm the thrifty (or cheap; take your pick) type, so I now make my own syrup. But I use white table sugar in place of the light syrup. To me, it's all sucrose.

I also prime my beers (even most of the kegs) with white sugar, and I have never noticed cidery flavors. So I don't know what to make of Ted Hausotter's findings. Perhaps the amount of priming sugar isn't enough to be a problem.
 

Tex Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Texbrewer

Post Number: 607
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.203.59.252
Posted on Friday, October 22, 2010 - 09:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oyez oyez, all rise and hear King Denny speak! I think the fact that Ted added the sugars to the secondary rather than in the boil is the difference. In order to have a controlled experiment in which the sugar was the only variable (and he used 4 or 5 sugars, I think), that was really the only way to do it. Otherwise, he would have needed 4-5 brew kettles all the same with the exact same heating and hops--a big pain, and too much opportunity for other things to happen.

Add sugar to the boil. Don't use rocks. I agree with Bill that the dark Belgian styles are the ones that benefit the most from (dark) Belgian candi syrup.
 

Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob

Post Number: 622
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 192.77.86.2
Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 07:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For a Tripel, I've always used white cane sugar but, one time I used clear Karo Syrup with good results even though it has preservatives, it did not effect my ferment. I always pitch HUGE on higher gravity beers. Denny, I use PM also, the reason I add the sugar in the last 5 minutes is so I use less hops than if I added it to the beginning. For me it is just being a bit more thrifty.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12075
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.101.115
Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 07:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The preservatives in Karo syrup are a minor issue. It also contains vanilla flavoring and salt, which may or may not be a problem depending on what you are brewing.

Unfortunately I have not been able to find plain high fructose corn syrup, which is extremely common in commercial soft drinks and baked goods. Perhaps I should check bulk food outlets (memo to self the next time I am out shopping).
 

Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob

Post Number: 623
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 192.77.86.2
Posted on Saturday, October 23, 2010 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, surprisingly, the salt didn't come into play however, a bunch of homebrewers that tasted it were intrigued with the low threshold vanilla flavor it imparted. I believe it gave the beer a certain je-ne-sais-quoi. I may do that recipe again.

(Message edited by brewerbob on October 23, 2010)
 

Chris Clements
New Member
Username: Clem

Post Number: 22
Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 24.178.71.173
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2010 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I brewed this on Monday and just took a gravity reading...1.048. Original gravity was 1.078, which was my target. Mashed at 147. I pitched from a 3L starter and it has been fermenting at 71 degrees. Is this a normal fermentation for 3787? Should I bump it up to the upper 70's?

Thanks in advance for any advice!
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12082
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.101.115
Posted on Sunday, October 24, 2010 - 06:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, I would bump up the termperature, especially now that the inital fermentation has slowed.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7466
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Monday, October 25, 2010 - 04:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

" the salt didn't come into play"...maybe it did, but not in the way you'd expect. Low doses of salt will increase the maltiness of a beer, which would be appropriate for a tripel.

(Message edited by denny on October 26, 2010)
 

Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob

Post Number: 626
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 192.77.86.2
Posted on Monday, October 25, 2010 - 10:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Right on DC, I purposely skipped the Calcium Chloride addition to compensate.
 

Chris Clements
New Member
Username: Clem

Post Number: 25
Registered: 09-2010
Posted From: 24.178.71.173
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 02:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Denny,

Where does your WestCoastmalle usually finish in terms of gravity and how long does fermentation usually take?

Thanks for the help!

Chris
 

Michael
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Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1076
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Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, it seems we are close to the same track for brewing this one (see start of thread). I am definetly not Denny, but here is an fyi on where I am at on this batch....I just bottled mine this past weekend. Gravity was at 1.009....that was 3 plus weeks in primary. Ended up with a little over one case of bombers for the holidays....ABV ended almost at 10%.

For five gallons, I went for 2.2 volumes, so added 3.6 oz of corn sugar. I also added a packet of US-05 to the bottling bucket as insurance.

Denny, the sample at bottling was smooth....no real hint of alcohol....some phenolic, plum and some spicy (hop) aroma....

One final question on my plans from here....I plan to leave bottles at room temp for a couple of weeks and then move to fridge to store / further condition. Does this sound reasonable? Is there any need to just leave at more of a cellar type temp?

Thanks again....I will need to put a warning as part of my labels for those not used to embibing in Belgians....too smooth.

(Message edited by hoppop on November 01, 2010)
 

Chris Clements
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Username: Clem

Post Number: 26
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Posted From: 24.178.71.173
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 03:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Michael,

Thanks for the feedback. Where was your gravity after 13 days or so? Mine is sitting at 1.019 after 13 days, has a two inch gooey kreusen and is bubbling along ever so slowly. I've never brewed a tripel or used this yeast and just want to know what to expect.

Also, I am planning on bottle conditioning at 4 volumes. Anyone have thoughts on that?

Chris

(Message edited by clem on November 01, 2010)
 

Denny Conn
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Username: Denny

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Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 04:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

IIRC, my last batch finished at about 1.008. Probably took 2-3 weeks to get there. Chris, be patient. As Stan pints out in BLAM, often times the last few points take as long or longer than the majority of fermentation. Michael, your plan sounds good, but I've never bottled a batch of it@!
 

Michael
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Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1077
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Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, I only took a couple of gravity readings. At 10 days it was 1.038....at 3 weeks it was at 1.010....I bottled it close to week four and at 1.009...so no real change...figure it was done (~ 88% attenuation). I did swirl the carboy every few days to get the yeast back in suspension after a couple weeks.

For the volume at bottling, I used the calc here http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator/carbonation.html
Used the Belgian Triple selection which was between 1.9 and 2.4. I have never bottled a Belgian this strong, so aimed for the middle of the road (2.2 vols). After reading about bottle gushers, I also figured that if the FG goes down any further in the bottle, it has some room. If it ends up at 2.2 vols, then in the middle of style. My thought process, FWIW.

Denny, thanks....kegging this one could be dangerous, me thinks.
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

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Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

FWIW, my guesstimate is that Westmalle is carbonated to more like 3.3 - 3.5 volumes of CO2. However, I'm sure your beer will be great.
 

Chris Clements
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Username: Clem

Post Number: 27
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Posted From: 24.178.71.173
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Bill. The 4 volumes on the Saison turned out great. I'll go with 3.5 in the Tripel.
 

Chris Clements
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Username: Clem

Post Number: 28
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Posted From: 24.178.71.173
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you Denny for the advice. I'll be patient, I'd love for the FG to be around 1.008. I'm not big on sweet Belgian Style beers.
 

Chris Clements
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Username: Clem

Post Number: 30
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Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One more question---is it better to let this beer finish in Primary or should I rack it and let it finish?

Thoughts?
 

Denny Conn
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Username: Denny

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Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 06:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I keep it in primary all the way through.
 

Chumley
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Username: Chumley

Post Number: 6194
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Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 04:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An update on my batch: last Friday (Nov 5), two weeks after brewing, I popped the bucket lid and took my first reading. OG 1.090, now at 1.020. Still signs of active fermentation.

The beer has been sitting on my kitchen floor at about 65°F the whole time, so I took the bucket downstairs, taped the brewbelt around it, and plugged it in. So it is in the mid 70s °F now. I plan on taking another reading on Friday, and if it isn't down to 1.010 or lower, I'll let it go another week before measuring again. Dunno if it will be ready for the office Christmas party on December 7, but we'll see.
 

Michael
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Username: Hoppop

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Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mine has been in the bottle two weeks and plan to at least sample one this weekend...

Chumley....for the holiday party, are you planning on putting a warning sign on the keg for those "less informed" about the strength and deceptiveness of this one?

I could see one of my BMC neighbors slamming a few of these because the alcohol is so deceiving and having him out on my coach for the next 6 hours!
 

Chumley
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Username: Chumley

Post Number: 6195
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Posted on Wednesday, November 10, 2010 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do indeed, Michael. The big beers always have a warning sign with them. That doesn't always solve the overimbibing problem, though.

I have gravitated to serving two big beers and three session beers at the Open House. I have a 10 lb. CO2 tandk with a 2 way manifold, and a 20 lb. tank with a 3-way manifold, so this works out okay. We place the beers in two seperate locations....the big beers are a little harder to find.

This year I have 7 beers in kegs and fermentors. Of those, I will chose 5 for the open house.....the other two will be for myself and my guests at our annual Santa Lucia party.

The big beer pool:

Westmalle tripel clone (1.090 OG)
DC's BVIP (1.090 OG)
Long Trail Double Bag clone (1.080 OG)

The session beer pool:

American IPA (actually, this one is somewhere between the big beers and the other sessions).
Cream Ale
Wheat Rye Ale
DeKoninck clone

I'm guessing I will end up with the Double Bag and the Cream Ale for my house beers, but final decisions will likely be made on Sunday, December 5.
 

Dave Witt
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Username: Davew

Post Number: 1485
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Posted on Thursday, November 11, 2010 - 12:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chumley,

Didn't you post the recipe for the double bag clone in another thread? Can you direct me?
 

Chumley
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Username: Chumley

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Posted on Saturday, November 13, 2010 - 10:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dave, here is the recipe from the November 2008 issue of BYO, the replicator column (those who dig out the magazine will note that I am the one who asked the replicator for this recipe).

OG 1.071, FG 1.016 25 IBUs, 16 SRM, 7.2% ABV

13 lbs. 2-row
1 lb. 20°L crystal
0.5 lb. 60°L crystal
0.5 lb. chocolate malt (350°L)
0.5 lb. wheat malt

Mash at 154°F for 60 min

0.5 oz. Northern Brewer 60 min
0.25 Mount Hood 0 min
1/2 tsp yeast nutrient

WY1007

On another note, I tested my tripel after another week, and ....1.010. Woo hoo! Think I'll give it another 3 days to see if I can't get another point or two out of it, and then keg it.

0.5 oz. Northern Brewer 60 min
 

Chumley
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Username: Chumley

Post Number: 6220
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Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 04:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, last night was the office Open House. I went with:

BVIP
American IPA
Wheat Rye
Westmalle Tripel clone
DeKoninck clone

The kegs were killed in that order....actually, the first two were gone at 5:45 pm, the remaining 3 were done around 6....two hours after tapping.

That Westmalle tripel clone is a fantastic beer....good job, Denny! Except this morning my head hurts.

I walked across the parking lot at 4:45 and invited the head brewer and the owner of the Lewis and Clark Brewery to come sample my wares...I think I might have them talked into brewing my wheat rye ale recipe.
 

Chris Clements
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Username: Clem

Post Number: 48
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Posted on Wednesday, December 08, 2010 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm drinking one right now, Westmalle Clone that is, and I must say that this is really great. Plums, white pepper, apricots, herbs. Like a really great New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. I will brew this again soon!! I could drink a gallon of this stuff.

Thanks Denny!
 

Denny Conn
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Username: Denny

Post Number: 7478
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 208.85.238.159
Posted on Thursday, December 09, 2010 - 05:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're welcome, Chris! Makes me think I need to brew a batch!
 

Skotrat
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Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1190
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 173.9.91.69
Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2011 - 04:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Denny...

I brewed this yesterday with your recipe as the base recipe and then sub'd some hops and yeast for what I had on hand.

I can't wait to taste it in a few weeks...


East Kingston - New Year Tripel - 1-1-2011

A ProMash Recipe Report

BJCP Style and Style Guidelines
-------------------------------

18-C Belgian Strong Ale, Belgian Tripel

Min OG: 1.075 Max OG: 1.085
Min IBU: 25 Max IBU: 38
Min Clr: 45 Max Clr: 6 Color in SRM, Lovibond

Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (Gal): 21.00 Wort Size (Gal): 21.00
Total Grain (Lbs): 65.00
Anticipated OG: 1.097 Plato: 23.0
Anticipated SRM: 4.0
Anticipated IBU: 43.0
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Formulas Used
-------------

Brewhouse Efficiency and Predicted Gravity based on Method #1, Potential Used.
Final Gravity Calculation Based on Points.
Hard Value of Sucrose applied. Value for recipe: 46.2100 ppppg
% Yield Type used in Gravity Prediction: Fine Grind Dry Basis.

Color Formula Used: Morey
Hop IBU Formula Used: Daniels


Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Potential SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
84.6 55.00 lbs. Pilsener Germany 1.038 2
15.4 10.00 lbs. Cane Sugar 1.047 0

Potential represented as SG per pound per gallon.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
6.00 oz. Perle Whole 6.00 25.0 60 min.
4.00 oz. Tettnanger Tettnang Whole 4.50 9.9 30 min.
4.00 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 3.50 6.1 20 min.
4.00 oz. Czech Saaz Whole 3.50 2.0 5 min.


Yeast
-----

DCL T58 T-58


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step

Grain Lbs: 55.00
Water Qts: 82.50 - Before Additional Infusions
Water Gal: 20.63 - Before Additional Infusions

Qts Water Per Lbs Grain: 1.50 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 154 Time: 90
Mash-out Rest Temp : 168 Time: 10
Sparge Temp : 170 Time: 70


Total Mash Volume Gal: 25.20 - Dough-In Infusion Only

All temperature measurements are degrees Fahrenheit.



 

Skotrat
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Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1191
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 173.9.91.69
Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2011 - 04:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I forgot...

We also did 13 gallons of Belgian Single from the second runnings
 

Denny Conn
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Username: Denny

Post Number: 7486
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Posted From: 208.85.238.159
Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2011 - 07:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Cool! I'll be interested to hear how it turns out with T58.
 

Skotrat
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Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1192
Registered: 07-2007
Posted From: 173.9.91.69
Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2011 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I love that T58... I really feel it is the Westmalle strain
 

Denny Conn
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Username: Denny

Post Number: 7487
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Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Really? I guess I see some similarities, but it seems more phenolic than Westmalle yeast.
 

Michael
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Username: Hoppop

Post Number: 1115
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Posted From: 143.165.48.50
Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny - A final update and thank you for such a great recipe. As posted previously, I made this back in September and bottled. Began sampling over the X-mas holidays with family and friends. Without exception, everyone loved…even those who were not really “beer drinkers” raved about it. A good example is my wife’s sister and husband, who came out to visit from LA. Typically (good) wine drinkers, who could not believe this was a “beer.”

From my perspective, I am amazed at the complexity that could have been obtained from such a simple recipe. The end product had very subtle phenolics and background spiciness. And, it is amazingly smooth and dangerously drinkable for such a high alcohol brew. Ended up making some pretty cool labels for the one’s given as gifts…I called it “Brother Henry’s Hammer.” An appropriate warning for the uninitiated.

I now wish I had made 10 gallons instead of 5 !!! I’ll save a bottle for you if you would like to try…hit my PM in the profile with a mailing address. Thanks again. Michael

(PS – Chris Clements, who also posted on this thread, brewed about the same time I did…we ended up doing a trade and tasting of our two attempts. Pretty cool to compare identical recipes brewed separately.
 

Denny Conn
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Username: Denny

Post Number: 7488
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Posted From: 75.145.77.185
Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 07:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Michael, you're making me wanna brew another batch! PM sent!
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12408
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Posted From: 24.150.49.181
Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I seem to recall reading somewhere that the origin of T-58 was the Palm brewery in Steenhuffel, between Brussels and Antwerp. However, I have been unable to find any confirmation of that online.

(Message edited by BillPierce on January 03, 2011)
 

Skotrat
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Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1193
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Posted From: 173.9.91.69
Posted on Monday, January 03, 2011 - 09:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Really Bill?

I would find any information interesting if you can find it
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12411
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 03:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott, I think my memory is off about the connection between T-58 and Palm. I spent about an hour researching this, and all I could find was a reference comparing T-58 to Wyeast 1214 and another to White Labs WLP500. Both references were based on speculation rather than any actual evidence. Since both of these strains (1214 and WLP500) are supposed to be the Chimay yeast (or at least an earlier version of it), I have to conclude that Chimay is as good a possibility as any.
 

Skotrat
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Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1194
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 09:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay...

That sounds interesting too.. I do not get the phenols from this yeast so far that Denny was mentioning but maybe I will from the tripel because of all the sugar.

Chimay would make sense here as a source also. I really see not so much difference between the Chimay strain and the Westmalle strain in my experience
 

Bill Pierce
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Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12417
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Posted on Tuesday, January 04, 2011 - 11:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I note some differences among these strains. They Chimay yeast can have a lot of phenolic and buble-gum flavors if fermented at 70 F or above, the Westmalle strain a little less so. I find the Westmalle yeast to be more of a chameleon; fermented in the lower 60s it can be malty enough to be considered for a biere de garde. And T-58 has a peppery finish that places it in my mind somewhere between Chimay and a saison.
 

Skotrat
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Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1195
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Posted From: 173.9.91.69
Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 02:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Definitely some pepper

Maybe I need to do some *ahem* research
 

Denny Conn
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Username: Denny

Post Number: 7489
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Posted on Wednesday, January 05, 2011 - 07:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I tend to use T-58 mainly for wit because of the phenols and spiciness. I get little to no fruitiness out of it. I tend to ferment it around 62-65, though. Maybe that's the difference?