| Author |
Message |
    
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 7560
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 75.145.77.185
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 07:09 pm: | 
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I've been involved in discussions lately based on FDA warnings about using silicone based Fermcap S in unfiltered beers. While I haven't been able to find the FDA statement, I did fond this from Dana Johnson of Birko. They make a silicone based foam control product similar to Fermcap S. BTW, I've gone to using Fermcap AT, which has no silicone (AFAIK).
"Brewers should not use silicone-containing antifoam for unfiltered beers. The FDA allows active silicone to be used up to 10 parts-per-million (ppm) but stipulates that the silicone must be removed prior to packaging by either filtration or centrifugation. In the case of unfiltered beers, use a food grade, non-silicone antifoam. We sell a food grade, canola oil based antifoam that works well for this purpose and has an added benefit of being yeast-friendly at the same time. Look for my article on antifoams in the brewery in the July/August issue of The New Brewer. Please contact me directly if you would like to discuss this or any other matter further.
Cheers!
Dana Johnson Brewery Technical Representative BIRKO Corporation Henderson, Colorado www.birkocorp.com: |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 717
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 08:02 pm: |
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Cool Beans Denny. Yeah, I swiched from the Birko 100 Anti Foam to their Patko-360 Olive oil based emulsion. With the brews I did with the B-100, I used a 5 micron poly spun filter in a whole house water filter case. Apparently, the silicone based anti foams not only clog filters, they potentially could clog your kidneys(human filters) above the 10 PPM limit. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 2092
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.251.232.47
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 08:07 pm: |
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From this website, it looks like both Fermcap S and Fermcap AT have the same active ingredient, Dimethylpolysiloxane
http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/FoamControl.html
Didn't find the MSDS anyplace, tho. |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 718
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 08:11 pm: |
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Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver
Post Number: 2703
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 12.155.83.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 08:15 pm: |
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The federal limit is in 21 CFR, section 173.340. Bob G is right, the limit is 10ppm in food.
http://frwebgate1.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/PDFgate.cgi?WAISdocID=RUVlsX/3/2/0&WAIS action=retrieve |
mikel
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 328
Registered: 02-2001
Posted From: 166.221.221.91
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 08:31 pm: |
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I've been thinking about Biofine Clear and the silcone issues. I've heard that biofine clear is not to be used in unfiltered beers either, but there are numerous brewpubs using it this way. Any information on biofine clear? |
Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver
Post Number: 2704
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 12.155.83.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 08:53 pm: |
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Let's do a little back-of-the-envelope math here. Let's say you use 1ml (which, to me, would be a lot) of pure dimethylpolysiloxane
in 20L of beer, or a little more than 5 gallons. That is 1 part per 20,000, which is equivalent to 50 parts per million. So, assuming that 100% of the chemical stayed in the beer, you'd be at five times the federal limit for food.
Now, I don't think that is a reasonable assumption, as the chemical is obviously hydrophobic to a certain extent. After all, it floats on the surface of the beer for some period of time after application. As alcohol is manufactured by the yeast, it provides a different solvent for the chemical, so that is an unknown to me. Bottom line, though, in my mind you probably wouldn't use a full milliliter and very little (if any) of that would remain suspended in a beer that you gave adequate time to drop clear. It seems reasonable to at least theorize that whatever did remain would be in the neighborhood of the 10ppm federal limit, which is "generally recognized as safe", as they like to say.
I wouldn't fault anyone, however, for switching to an organic product instead. Zero is better than some, whatever "some" is. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 2093
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.251.232.47
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 08:57 pm: |
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So, if the dosage for Fermcap S is 2 drops in 5 gallons (As I've found several places), and the volume of a drop is 0.05 ml (as I've also found in several places)
Then 2 drops is 0.1 ml in 19 liters (19,000 ml) is 1 part in 190,000 or 5 parts in 1,000,000
Assuming that most of the Fermcap S drops out with the yeast, it looks like it's still OK as long as you're not a HB'er whose motto is "If a little is good, more is better."
Check my math somebody. |
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 7561
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 208.85.238.144
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 09:29 pm: |
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"Zero is better than some, whatever "some" is."...that's the way I see it, Graham. |
mikel
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 329
Registered: 02-2001
Posted From: 166.228.159.56
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 09:35 pm: |
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My bottle of fermcap says 2 drops per gallon? |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 719
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 10:12 pm: |
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I did the math a few months back and figured .5 mL is 10ppm in a 5 gallon batch. Yes, it floats on the top so, when racking you leave most of it behind. |
michael atkins
Advanced Member
Username: Mga
Post Number: 831
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 216.161.69.222
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 11:20 pm: |
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I am sure there are but I don't recall any articles in "Zymurgy" or "Brew Your Own" on the subject of controlling "Vigorous Ferments" or "Clearing beer", for that matter. Then again I am really bad at reading the issues when they come in.
I guess I am with Denny on this one I don't like to add anything to my beer, even a "Little Bit".
Please don't anyone come up with a bad study on Irish Moss. |
Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver
Post Number: 2705
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 12.155.83.2
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 13, 2011 - 11:49 pm: |
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Here's a crazy thought. What if you just added a few drops of the vegetable oil of your choice to the top of your finished wort, if you were worried about foam issues? Canola, olive, whatever? The oil cannot be assumed to be sterile, but if you pitched enough healthy yeast, that should not be an issue. |
Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett
Post Number: 2804
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.45.166
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 01:02 am: |
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Here's a curve ball: How about when adding it to the boil? How does that affect solubility and retention?
On one hand, I would guess that the stuff is fairly unaffected by boiling temps. After all, I regularly use silicone nonstick pads in 375F ovens. I've had the same pads for years without obvious degradation.
In addition, the beautiful head on the Cali Common I'm drinking, which got a bit of Fermcap in both boil and primary, argues that little, if any, remained in the finished beer.
On the other hand, I've never sent a sample of my beer to be analyzed. Who really knows how much silicone was retained?
I think I may switch to an organic product. Better safe than sorry. |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 4138
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.122.104.54
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 01:22 am: |
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I use it from time to time in starters and the boil when doing 10 gal batches. Guess I'll be doing something else now.
I was thinking the same as Graham after the olive oil based foam control came up. I played around with olive oil back when the O2 substitution thing hit. I did have one starter go bad that I'm pretty sure was from adding the olive oil after the wort was cool.
I think adding the olive oil at KO while it would still get pasturized would work for foam control in the fermentor. Maybe add olive oil at the start of the boil for faom control too? |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 720
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 04:40 am: |
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or just get some Patko-360 |
dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 2317
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 184.41.101.118
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 12:31 pm: |
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Maybe too simplistic an idea on sterilizing, but why not just nuke yer veg oil before adding a few drops into the finished wort? |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 2094
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.251.232.47
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 01:27 pm: |
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mikel,
my mistake, I read wrong (more than once). Thanks for catching that.
You're right on the dosage. 2 drops per gallon would be 0.5 ml in 19,000 ml or about 25 ppm (as opposed to Bob G's calculation, which I think I disagree with w/o seeing how he did his math).
But, then, most of it is left behind, so I's still think the finished beer would have far less than 10 ppm.
next time I brew I'll try a few drops of olive oil or canola oil, and see how that works... |
Bill Walton
Intermediate Member
Username: Vladie
Post Number: 280
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 71.252.114.81
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:22 pm: |
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So what is the availability of organic foam controllers to the average homebrewer? A quick net search didn't turn up much. |
mikel
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 330
Registered: 02-2001
Posted From: 166.224.172.32
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 02:50 pm: |
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What about biofine clear?
I've sent an email to Brewer's Supply Group regarding the use of Biofine Clear in unfiltered beers. I'll post the response when I get one.
(Message edited by mikel on April 14, 2011) |
Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett
Post Number: 2805
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.45.166
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 04:07 pm: |
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We did all get by before foam control was available to homebrewers. We can do so again. It might require adjusting some recipes, to account for loss of bittering compounds via blow-off, or keeping a closer eye on the boil. But foam control, while a great convenience, is hardly essential. |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 721
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:03 pm: |
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http://birkocorp.com
email or call. Dana will send you a product price list. Then just call the 800# with your CC and your golden.
Paul, I'll show my calculations based on the info I received from Dana when I have more time. I triple checked my math but, whatever, I'll dig it out. |
Bill Walton
Intermediate Member
Username: Vladie
Post Number: 281
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 71.252.114.81
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:05 pm: |
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Agreed Paul, but I ferment in corny kegs so being able to work with very little head space is quite nice. |
mikel
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 331
Registered: 02-2001
Posted From: 198.227.182.253
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:14 pm: |
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Here's the response about biofine clear:
"Hi Mike,
Biofine Clear contains Silicon Dioxide, which I believe is derived from sand. You might be thinking about Fermcap which contains silicone and is removed through filtration before packaging. See the attached MSDS and Product Info sheets on the Biofine Clear.
Cheers, |
mikel
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 332
Registered: 02-2001
Posted From: 198.227.182.253
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:15 pm: |
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How do I upload the msds as an attachment? |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 12841
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.49.181
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:29 pm: |
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Right click on it and select "Save target as..." from the menu. |
mikel
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 333
Registered: 02-2001
Posted From: 198.227.182.253
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 06:48 pm: |
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This is the spec sheet. The board tells me the msds is too big to upload? How do I reduce it's size? |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 12842
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.49.181
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 07:16 pm: |
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The board software has a file attachment limit of 100 KB. You can post a link to it. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 2095
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.251.232.47
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 07:26 pm: |
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Bob G,
I didn't account for the percentage of Dimethylpolysiloxane in the total volume of the product.
It could very well be that over half of the product is inert filler.
Looking forward to seeing your calc's. E-mail me off line if you want. |
Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett
Post Number: 2807
Registered: 02-2002
Posted From: 71.234.45.166
| | Posted on Thursday, April 14, 2011 - 07:53 pm: |
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Bill Walton -- I hear you. I've got an Apple Butter Cyser fermenting in a 6-gallon carboy right now. That recipe is notorious for volcanic eruptions when the yeast is roused during primary. I've been relying on Fermcap to keep it well-behaved. I'd probably opt to primary in 2 fermenters if I didn't use it. Total PITA.
I like anti-foam. But I also like my kidneys. |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 722
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 192.77.86.2
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 03:23 am: |
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Paul, you have a good point about the emulsion/silicone ratio. That may effect a recalculation on my part. I was going by total mixed product. I bought a gallon of it and it appeared that the clear liquid(which I am assuming is the silicone) was ~ 1/3 floating on top of the white emulsion base in the clear plastic gallon jug. I'm at work and going from memory of the email data Dana sent me saying an ounce in a 7bbl batch of beer puts it at 10 ppm so I converted an ounce to milliliters and divided by 310 gallons. You may be right that it would be .5 mL per 10 gallons and .25 mL for 5 gallons. I'll post Dana's email and we can go from there. Bottom line is if you are conservative in using the product at those levels, along with one third being the actual silicone, racking etc. I'm sure one would be at or below the 10 ppm limit without filtering and adverse effects. I've switched to using 4 or 5 drops in the boil kettle and use the Patko=360 in the fermenter with great results. Another observation point is when I open the valve on my boil kettle going into the 6 gallon plastic bucket, I do get foam that will not dissipate indicating to me that the antifoam was held back by the trub. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 2096
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.251.232.47
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 02:00 pm: |
|
Bob, 7 bbl is 217 gallons, not 310. 217 gallons is 821.345 liters or 821,345 ml. So 29.5 ml divided by that is 36 ppm
I recall seeing someplace that the Fermcap S recommended dosage was 1 ounce in 10 bbls (310 gallons or 1,173.35 liters), But still by going on total volume of the Fermcap S, that's 25 ppm |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 723
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Friday, April 15, 2011 - 06:31 pm: |
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Yeah, right Paul. I should know...haha here's one of the emails from Dana. It WAS 10 BBLS which is ~ 300-310 gallons:
Stay below 10 ppm active
> dimethylpolysiloxane, the active ingredient in Birko Antifoam 100 for
> unfiltered beers (about 1 oz. per 10 bbls).
> Cheers!
> Dana
Ok so, 1 ounce is 30 mL so, 10mL per 100 gallons = 1 mL per 10 gallons = .5 mL per 5 gallons so, I guess my calculations were in the ballpark. |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 724
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Saturday, April 16, 2011 - 06:24 pm: |
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Just found another email from Dana @ Birko stating the Birko-100 Antifoam is 30% silicone(mixed). Also, Ive been calling the Patco 360 when it's real name is Patco-376. |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 4142
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.122.104.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 12:54 am: |
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I'm making some starters tomorrow night and think I'll put in some drops of olive oil before cooling. See what happens when I hit it with the O2 in a flask. I'll report back. |
Tom Gardner
Senior Member
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1225
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 67.190.167.19
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 02:34 am: |
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What's wrong with silicone? It is a silicon-oxygen molecule and doesn't seem to be absorbed in the human digestive tract. (Interestingly, the biggest source of silicon in our diet is from barley, oats and rice - and thus beer.) It is even sold as simethicone to relieve "gas". And the whole silicone breast implant controversy has been put to rest.
However I would second anything Dana Johnson has to say. He is a chemist for Birko as well as a local homebrewer. |
Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards
Post Number: 2100
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.252.19.34
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 11:44 am: |
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Adding olive oil to a pot of cooking pasta to eliminate the starch foam doesn't work in my experience |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 12853
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.49.181
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 12:49 pm: |
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My experience is the same as Paul's. Olive oil added to the water is good for keeping the pasta from sticking, but less effective at eliminating foam. |
Bill Walton
Intermediate Member
Username: Vladie
Post Number: 282
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 71.252.114.81
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 02:35 pm: |
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I can offer a third data point, this weekend I tried adding some olive oil when getting a pot of beer ready to boil for brats and it didn't make any difference. |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 734
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 04:50 pm: |
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I'm sure it has to do with the formula. Veg oil plus the emulsion of the Patco-376 works like a champ. I remember trying EVOO in a beer about 3 or 4 years ago and it would up going rancid on me and so it became drain cleaner. I've not had any downside using the Patco on the last 5 or 6 brews. My ROT is to use .5 mL of Birko-100 in the boil kettle and then 2-3 tbs of Patco in the fermenter.
Edited to add:
Thanks for the info Tom. I remember doing research a few years ago on silicone based anti foams and apparently all of the information pointed to the fact that it was pretty much an inert substance in the human body and it is passed in the feces. Absorption is practically nil. I wonder why the FDA puts limits at 10 PPM? I guess more digging is in order.
(Message edited by Brewerbob on April 20, 2011) |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 4146
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.122.104.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 20, 2011 - 11:18 pm: |
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Adding olive oil to a pot of cooking pasta to eliminate the starch foam doesn't work in my experience
Better not be any starch foam in ready to ferment wort. Not saying it will work any better on a protein foam but we'll see. And I don't usually use Fermcap for foam when boiling but foam control when adding O2 and fermentation krausen. |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 737
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2011 - 05:25 pm: |
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So Denny, what say you after all this discussion. Are you going to modify how you deal with foaming issues? |
Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny
Post Number: 7564
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 208.85.238.144
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 09:42 pm: |
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I just bought a liter of the Fermcap AT, so I guess I'm committed for a while! I'll report back on how well it works and in the meantime try to do some more research about what exactly it is. |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 738
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 26, 2011 - 09:49 pm: |
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Roger that and as one of the posters said above, fear not silicone...especially above the belly button  |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 4148
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.122.104.54
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 01:31 am: |
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Report back, OO didn't do anything to slow down WLP530 from crawling out of the flask. Had to put a blow off tube on it. |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 739
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 27, 2011 - 03:37 pm: |
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http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/FoamControl.html
More Data:
FermCap AT
FermCap AT is a unique emulsion of an extremely effective surface active agent Dimethylpolysiloxane which prevents foam formation by reducing surface tension.
FermCap AT is classified as a "Process Aid" because of its novel feature of being completely removed from the beer under normal processing conditions. It is adsorbed onto the surface of the yeast, vessel walls and filter media.
Analytical techniques accurate to 0.005 ppm cannot detect FermCap AT in finished beer. |
Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes
Post Number: 4150
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 76.122.104.54
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 12:01 am: |
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But it mentions filter media. Wonder about what if there's no filter media? |
Tom Gardner
Senior Member
Username: Tom
Post Number: 1227
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 67.190.167.19
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 12:03 am: |
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Then you'll need some yeast and/or vessels walls! |
Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley
Post Number: 6289
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 02:44 pm: |
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What are "normal processing conditions"? Normal to small brewpubs? Or normal to Budweiser/Miller/Coors? |
Bob G.
Advanced Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 743
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 76.113.44.203
| | Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2011 - 04:35 pm: |
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I'm thinking the same rule holds true. Use at no more than 10 ppm and you'll be fine. Above that filtration would be prudent due to lack of knowledge/info(that seems to be difficult to find). |
Brews and Views Archive 2011 
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Birko-100 Antifoam MSDS