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Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3708
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 05:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This has been a frequent topic of discussion around where I live. It seems that "liberal" has become a bad thing to be, but as I understand the Bible (and I'm the first to admit I'm no Bible scholar), it would appear to me that Jesus had what we would now call "liberal" ideals...how bad could that be? Discuss...
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Wykowski
Senior Member
Username: Bigearl

Post Number: 1186
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, your 100% correct Denny

WWJD ?
that's what I have to say to the so called "religious-right"...

WWJD, well he sure as hell wouldn't support the hateful ideals of the so called "religious-right"
You remember that foul evening when you heard the banshees howl
There was lousy drunken bastards singing 'Billy is in the bowl'
They took you up to midnight mass and left you in the lurch
So you dropped a button in the plate and spewed up in the church

 

davidw
Advanced Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 704
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 08:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jesus was a homebrewer, too.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3715
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 26, 2004 - 08:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Man, I'm feeling more religious by the second!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 935
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Bible scholars long have enjoyed this question, but it has too many current political connotations for me. I admit I'm a little frightened of some fundamentalist Christians who seem to want to make America a theocracy. To me that's only a "kinder, gentler" version of Iran.
 

ELK
Advanced Member
Username: Elkski

Post Number: 918
Registered: 01-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 02:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just hope the martians come soon. They can tell us all the truth about god.
Please hurry.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3721
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I find it ironic that we're trying so hard to get religion out of the government of Iraq, and into the government of the US.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

John Shaw
Junior Member
Username: Johns

Post Number: 65
Registered: 08-2003
Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think there is a difference between being liberal and political liberalism. According the dictionary definition - I think just about everyone would want to consider themselves a liberal. I just think it's interesting that people at every point of the political spectrum have tried to use Jesus or the Bible to defend/promote their ideas.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3731
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John, I don't know if I agree with your difference. I try to live my life according to liberal ideals (I'm not sure that's the best word to describe it, but I hope you get my meaning), and that informs my political ideals...not vice versa.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Wykowski
Senior Member
Username: Bigearl

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

yes, and to quote John Prine,
"Jesus don't like killing,
no matter what the reasons for,
and your flag decal won't get you in heaven anymore"
You remember that foul evening when you heard the banshees howl
There was lousy drunken bastards singing 'Billy is in the bowl'
They took you up to midnight mass and left you in the lurch
So you dropped a button in the plate and spewed up in the church

 

John Shaw
Junior Member
Username: Johns

Post Number: 66
Registered: 08-2003
Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I take your point Denny, I was just trying to draw a distinction between personal and political liberalism and tying it back to Jesus. I believe (and I'm not a Bible scholar either) that Jesus was more concerned about our relationship with God and our fellow man rather than our political affilitation. Bascially I don't think Jesus would care if you were a "liberal" or "conservative" just as long as you were a good person.

Personally I don't consider myself liberal or conservative. I think many issues are too complicated to draw a line between black and white - right or wrong. So I have to make a decision based on what's right for me and the people around me.

Hope that makes sense and I don't come across as preachy (if that's a word).
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3746
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, October 29, 2004 - 09:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John, the sentiments you expressed pretty much sum up how I feel. It's that "relationship with fellow man" thing that is the part I care about. I try to make sure that other people are as important to me as I am to myself, and choose my politics based on who I feel embodies that principle best.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 572
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wykowski, as far as WWJD:

What do you think Jesus would do about abortion?
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 573
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 06:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> it would appear to me that Jesus had what we would now call "liberal" ideals...

Denny, would you car to give any examples?
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3750
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 06:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, caring for others above yourself, for one.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Tom12
Junior Member
Username: Tom12

Post Number: 30
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have always thought of Jesus as being socialist. I am not religious but I do believe that such a figure existed. To give a (very)gross simplification, that he would have been of middle eastern appearance and that he died caring for the poor and oppressed. I imagine he would be weeping to see what is happening now.
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 576
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, caring for others above yourself, for one.

THAT is supposed to be a "liberal" ideal? Are you kidding? In the first place, it's not a political ideal at all, but a moral/religious one. That ideal has been espoused throughout the history of the Christian faith, including during the times of the Inquisition, witch trials, etc.

You're going to have to come up with something better than that, Denny. You couched your question in purely political terms.}
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3752
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 07:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, Kent, I'm afraid that's how I think of it...sorry if it's oversimplified, but I guess I'm just a simple person. When I see, for instance, people say they don't want to pay taxes for schools because they don't have children in school, it seems that the sentiment comes more often from political conservatives than political liberals. My initial point was that Christian ideals seem more closely aligned with political liberalism than conservatism.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 578
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, October 30, 2004 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When I see, for instance, people say they don't want to pay taxes for schools because they don't have children in school, it seems that the sentiment comes more often from political conservatives than political liberals.

A rather convenient, though unsubstantiated assumption on your part.

In reality, and as a generalization, conservatives complain about waste in public school systems that produce "graduates" who can barely read, who have to take remedial English and Mathematics courses before they can qualify to take college level classes, even at Junior Colleges. They complain about the revisionist social studies curricula, and the fact that public schools are rife with teachers who indoctrinate their pupils with the agenda of the political left.

I have never complained about paying taxes to support public schools, and neither did my Republican Grandparents, who helped assure that my four sisters and I were educated in Catholic schools, and never partook of the public system. But I do complain about the bloated behemoth that is the Los Angeles Unified School District. Every day I see the product of that system, which boasts some of the lowest test scores in the country, despite having one of the highest per-student budgets.

You're still talking apples and oranges, Denny. And would you care to address the question I asked of Wykowski, about one of the issues most universally championed by the (so-called) liberals in this country?
 

Wykowski
Senior Member
Username: Bigearl

Post Number: 1190
Registered: 12-2002
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 01:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wykowski, as far as WWJD:

What do you think Jesus would do about abortion?


I totally agree, thats a point I often bring up, how can someone be for abortion rights and against the death penalty, or vice/versa

I don't know, I don't claim to be a liberal or a conservative

(Message edited by bigearl on November 01, 2004)
You remember that foul evening when you heard the banshees howl
There was lousy drunken bastards singing 'Billy is in the bowl'
They took you up to midnight mass and left you in the lurch
So you dropped a button in the plate and spewed up in the church

 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 531
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 02:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"What do you think Jesus would do about abortion? "

Kent, I presume you are pro-life due to a catholic upbringing and faith? I honestly don't know what Jesus would think, but I am pro choice purely for the reason that the embryo, in my opinion, is not a human upto a certain stage, just a collection of cells. But most importantly because the birth of a child who is unwanted, unloved and uncared is a far worse crime as it will ruin countless lives.

I don't believe in God, or Jesus, or any deity what so ever. I'm not saying that there is no way that one could exist, just I don't think that it does. Therefore WWJD has no meaning to me. However, I live my life by 'christian' morals as I believe they are good. But I means 'liberal' christian morals, not hard right fundamentalist morals. I take people as they are, I try and help people. I don't consider myself better than anyone else. I don't consider my view 'right' and an opposing view as 'wrong'. I am willing to listen to peoples arguments and think about them, they may change my mind on things.

"Every day I see the product of that system, which boasts some of the lowest test scores in the country, despite having one of the highest per-student budgets."

I think this probably has something to do with their socio-economic background. If you were brought up in a minimum wage single parent family, with no future, nothing to look forward to, no belief in yourself etc, you could be forgiven for not making the most of your education. Until that problem is tackled it is always going to be like that.

I think Denny's comment pretty much sums it up. If peopple actually did that, I don't think half the problems we have in this world would exist.

"it's not a political ideal at all, but a moral/religious one"

Yes, but how many people actually live by it? Religious or not? Very few!
Real Ale Crusader and all round Hophead
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 1716
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't belive in God in the common meaning but I think properly interpreting any text, book or the words of God in order to extrapolate it into another context does require the reader to always ask himself - why. If God created us to his image, I can't see that he would expect us to translate his advices litteraly "in absurdum" into every new situations. That simply makes no sense. I think not even a God could write a text that could be applied blindly and litteraly to any new situation. From what I've been told from believers God created us with free will, because he wanted us to think and he was bored to death by all the friggin angels who never had an opinon besides "Yes boss :-)". If God gave us the ability to think I think he would be disappointed to see us acting like robits and not using it. I think we should question Gods words, I don't think this would offend him, I think he has faith that we will make the right decisions, as we are created from his image. If God wanted robots he would have created robots.

/Fredrik
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 533
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2004 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Who wrote the bible anyway?
Real Ale Crusader and all round Hophead
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 582
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 02:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wykowski, you said that Denny was "100% right" in his opening post. Denny is trying to assert that the teachings of Jesus are akin to contemporary liberal ideals, and framed "LIBERAL" in the context of American politics. That's why I raised the question of abortion.

As to how somebody could by "vice versa" as you put it, there is no moral inconsistency to being both "pro-life" and pro death penalty. Being against abortion is protecting the innocent, supporting the death penalty is about punishing the guilty.

And going back to your first post in this thread, what exactly are the "hateful ideals" you spoke of?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 985
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 01:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abortion is about the only subject I won't discuss. I have yet to see any argument that changes the mind of a single opponent or supporter. It's the most divisive social issue and the one with the least likelihood of resolution.
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 537
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 01:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"supporting the death penalty is about punishing the guilty"

No, it's about getting revenge. Punishment would be about making their life a misery and making them feel guilty for their actions.

And what if the police/courts get it wrong and someone was executed for a crime they did not commit? I bet this has happened countless times. How is that just? What if it were you?
Real Ale Crusader and all round Hophead
 

Joseph Listan
Intermediate Member
Username: Poonstab

Post Number: 274
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 03:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kent,
Dude, are you for real? Are there really people out there who cannot even see, for the sake of argument, that the death penalty and abortion are similar moral dilemmas?

For a long time, I have been pro-choice and pro-death penalty. Now I am pro-choice and moving away from death penalty, just because of its irreversibility. I believe it should remain legal in stupidly obvious cases, but the burden of proof ought to be greater, and somehow the jury should be more "informed" about the decision they are making than at current. There are also biases introduced by the jury, and this bothers me somewhat. I guess I just don't trust people enough. I wouldn't want to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, end up in front of a death penalty jury of strangers. Would you? I served jury duty in a federal district court, and I wasn't greatly impressed with some of my "peers". And, no, I certainly wouldn't want Kent to be on my jury in the example above. Sorry Kent, you just don't seem to take the power over another's life seriously enough. Perhaps this is the great difference between a "liberal" and a "conservative" in this society.

As far as abortion goes, I am personally against it, but cannot see any sense in criminalizing something that people are going to do in spite of the law (prostitution and drug use fall into these categories as well, and both can be substituted here). I would rather see the government officially recognize a practice that many people will decide to do, and ensure that if their minds absolutely cannot be changed, then at least they will have adequate medical attention so that they will not also be risking their own lives. I just can't stand by and see the return of the coat hanger in the back alley. We had that once, and it will surely return.
 

Drew Avis
Member
Username: Strangebrew

Post Number: 174
Registered: 08-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm surprised no one posted this url:
http://www.wiseass.org/html/content-jesus.html
 

Michael Bronosky
New Member
Username: Brewski922

Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 04:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It amazes me that the "Christian Religous Right" are so hung up on and believe in the death penalty. Don't get me wrong, I feel that there are times when the death penalty is justified and can and should be used. However, Jesus was an innocent man and it was a bunch of Religious Zealots that insisted he be put to death. In a round-about-way they are saying "Jesus got what he deserved."

Jesus has many quoteable quotes but his answer to a bunch of folks that were trying to trick him is one of my favorite. It went something like this. "Hey wise guy, just what in the hell is God's greatest law?" His answer, "Love God." He went on to say, "Love thy neighbor." Then he summed it up with, "On these two laws ALL the other laws are founded."

It amazes me that the first thing the "Christian Religious Right" do is throw out those laws and insist on posting the Ten Commandments here, there and everywhere when the best thing they could do to spread God's word is live by these laws and set the example.

No time did God say post these commandments everywhere, he said live these commandments all the time. We need more living the commandments not posting the commandments. "Walk the talk."

Just so you folks know where I come from. I was born a Catholic, spent 12 years in Catholic schools and am a practicing Catholic. Twelve years in a Catholic school, hey there are twelve Apostles, and I still can't spell worth a crap. Blame it on the Nuns.

Do I commit sins. You bit, I color outside the lines. My main purpose here on Earth is to get to heaven. If I manage to steer other people there by the examples I set that would get me brownie points.

Mike
 

David C Johnson
Junior Member
Username: Daveofsherwood

Post Number: 33
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 05:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Liberal, conservative, religious right, radical left...

These are mere terms invented by people in power to keep us toiling and fearing for problems that have more dimensions than good and evil. Fear is a tool and the spin doctors have us by the nuts steering us from true democracy.

Bush represents the religious? He's changed christian sects 3 times (presbetyrian, baptist, and now methodist). He coined the term "flip flop" also. He's manipulated the religious for their vote.

Kerry's no better. He points the finger quicker than a gunslinger in a gunfight. Example: blaming the Bush admin for the shortage of flu vaccine. Pretty lame.

Screw politics and let in the statesmen and scholars! (no, not Nader)

Tired of being suckered,
I endorse this message,
Dave Johnson

Thanks for the rant.
 

D. Fraser
Junior Member
Username: Beerslut

Post Number: 63
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not that I agree or disagree with your point of view. But if Bush coined the "Filp Floper" comment. When did he do that, be for or after the Dukakis political skit on SNL with John Lovitz? Come on, Bush isn't that creative. You can learn a lot by watching hours of tv.
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 584
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 10:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, it's about getting revenge.

No. It is a penalty for only a very few crimes. Not even most murders qualify for the death penalty. It is a penalty, therefore it is punishment.

And what if the police/courts get it wrong and someone was executed for a crime they did not commit? I bet this has happened countless times.

Name one, please. In the U.S., obviously.
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 585
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 10:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abortion is about the only subject I won't discuss. I have yet to see any argument that changes the mind of a single opponent or supporter.

Bill, I agree completely, and usually avoid the subject.

I just can't stand by and see the return of the coat hanger in the back alley. We had that once, and it will surely return.

Joseph, that's a bit of an exageration, promoted by NOW and others. Abortion was legal in many states, long before Roe v Wade. It's highly unlikely that it will ever be overturned. But that doesn't mean that abortion should be as rampnant as it is. There are literally millions of women who use it for birth control, and have had five or more.
 

Tom12
Junior Member
Username: Tom12

Post Number: 32
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2004 - 11:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

But that doesn't mean that abortion should be as rampnant as it is. There are literally millions of women who use it for birth control, and have had five or more.

And what evidence do you have to back this up?
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 592
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 01:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Public statements made by health care professionals that work in "family planning" clinics and statistics from the CDC, public records.

Of the abortions reported in 1999 to the Centers for Disease Control (CDC), 26.2% of women who aborted had experienced one previous abortion; 11.2% had two previous abortions, and 7.5% had three or more previous abortions.

(Message edited by fletch on November 03, 2004)
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 593
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 01:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

More:
(from the State of California)
the Year 2000 Department of Heath
Services (DHS) Medi-Cal statistics show that 3.2 percent of taxpayer funded abortions are repeat
abortions on the same recipient in the same calendar year.
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 594
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 01:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still more:

"Table 6 (Fee for Service) of the report on Year 2000 Medi-Cal Statistics
45,794 total Medi-Cal funded abortions
44,298 total women
42,850 women had one abortion
1,448 women had two or more (2,944 abortions)
48 abortions were the third or fourth abortion for one woman that year"

That's nearly 1500 women in California alone that had an abortion PAID FOR by the state in ONE YEAR. So, imagine how many more were performed on women who did not have the state pay, and then imagine what the number of "repeaters" there MUST be in 50 states.
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 595
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 01:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, I also just noticed that I left out the word "some," I meant to say that of the millions who use it as birth control, SOME have had 5 or more.
 

Dan Mourglea
Intermediate Member
Username: Cataclysmbrewer

Post Number: 459
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 09:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I support abortions up 'til the 57th tri-mester
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 1724
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My opinon on abortions is that considering how well integrated a mother and an unborn child is I think noone else but the mother should decide this. That said society should not "encourage" abortions, but at times it is probably the right thing to do. Until the baby is born, I think it's part of the mother, so I think it's crazy if society should force a mother to give birth and raise a child that might have been a result of a mistake, or even rape. I figure an abortion isn't an easy thing, and if the mother thinks it's still the best thing to do, how can society have second opinions on this?

/Fredrik
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 539
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 11:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abortion should never be used as birth control. That's all I've got to say about that!
Real Ale Crusader and all round Hophead
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1029
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 03:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, that was a good one... I'd say I'm most in agreement with the Jolly one in this thread...

Kent, I have not the time to do the research, but if I was a betting man, I'd wager that CA is in the top 3 (if not the highest) states in regards to your statistics, but point is well taken.

Jolly, to me it's not 'who wrote the bible' as much as how many times it has been translated and retranslated over the years...
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 542
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good point Hophead. If you have ever used an internet translator you'll know that a meaning can get pretty twisted. And that is not even with the human slant on things.

And I have to say, Love thy neighbour and turn the other cheek, seem pretty much the core of Jesus' teachings. It is how I live my life and I'm not even a Christian.
Real Ale Crusader and all round Hophead
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 602
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 05:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kent, I have not the time to do the research, but if I was a betting man, I'd wager that CA is in the top 3(snip)

Hophead, of course on the raw number that is true, but then California is by far the most populous state. If you look at the number per 1,000 women, California is just slightly higher than New York, with 39 v 37 per 1,000, respectively (1996 CDC). 39 is the highest and Wyoming the lowest at 2/K. Actually, Washington D.C. also has a high-looking raw number, but the per K figure was not posted with those results.
 

Ron Siddall
New Member
Username: Listerdister

Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2004 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And the $3 Billion that California will be spending on "research" will make abortion a commerical business.
 

Kent Fletcher
Advanced Member
Username: Fletch

Post Number: 610
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2004 - 01:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Abortion already is a thriving commercial business, and didn't need any help from Prop 71, which I voted against on mainly fiscal and general the-state-has-no-business-doing-this grounds.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1431
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, June 28, 2005 - 02:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

After the religion Poll, I figured I would read this one. Everything is pretty well covered, but one question was sort of left out there.

Wykowski, as far as WWJD:

What do you think Jesus would do about abortion?


It seems to me from what I have read and understand about Jesus, he would take pitty on all parties involved with an abortion and would try to understand. And in the end he would do the mostly Godly (if that is a word) of things, he would forgive all.

-Doug
 

Nathan Eddy
Junior Member
Username: Nathan_eddy

Post Number: 50
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, June 29, 2005 - 08:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Didn't Jesus say something about "there will always be poor people, so why waste money helping them?" I don't know, maybe I'm just remembering lyrics from Jesus Christ Superstar. But if this is true, Jesus wouldn't be in favor of government hand outs for the poor.
 

A.G. Nostic
Unregistered guest
Posted on Thursday, June 30, 2005 - 06:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From Matthew 19:16-30 (New King James Version)

"Jesus said to him, 'If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.'"
 

Catt22
Member
Username: Catt22

Post Number: 138
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was raised catholic and I am now an atheist. I am not anti-god, I simply am not convinced that god or a spiritual world exists. I doubt that Jesus was a real person and the same goes for Moses, et. al.

I like ELK's post: "just hope the martians come soon. They can tell us all the truth about god."

Maybe not martians, but there's a chance that we may contact some other ET and that could be very enlightening regarding religion. It could also turn out that God is actually a very advanced space alien and not a supernatural critter at all.

Good and evil exist only in the minds of men. There is no right or wrong in the universe. IMO this applies to both the death penalty and abortion. I am against the death penalty for two reasons. It is irreversible and it benifits no one.

God, if he exists, will certainly give the aborted fetus a "get into heaven free pass". A desirable shortcut?

I still have trouble with the concept that we have inherited some kind of sin and god had to create another human to send down here to be tortured to death in order to appease his own wrath. It seems absurd to me.
 

Puzzled
Unregistered guest
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 05:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You don't belive in God, yet you believe that ET's will contact us?

Statistically ETs exist, but not close enough for us to communicate to them or them to communicate with us.

Almost sounds like a religion in itself
 

Catt22
Member
Username: Catt22

Post Number: 139
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 11:20 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Statistically, god does not exist. I agree that the existence of ET's is nearly a mathematical certainty. The vastness of space is presently an obstacle to potential communication, but that may not be the case in the future. It is difficult to speculate what technology the ET's might have or what we might acquire in the future. I don't choose my beliefs. I am either convinced by the evidence or not. Religions provide zero evidence. I don't have much faith in magic.
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 746
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 11:49 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry, couldn't resist.

"Religions provide zero evidence"

TOO RIGHT!!!

Just a bunch of stuff that happened thousands of years ago, and has been recorded by who knows who, after the event, and twisted by translation, interpretation and time. How can anyone seriously believe any of it, if you look at any 'evidence' for any religion in even the most loosely 'scientific' way then you cannot even begin to believe any of it. Every piece of evidence is tainted.

A few observations.

Most everyone who has a religious faith belives they are right.

Most if not all religions seem to have a holy book or something similar. Who wrote them, what gave them the authority?????

Everything miraculous and pertaining to the existence of God happened thousands of years ago. Why do things not happen now? Why are they not recorded in a 'book' now? Who would write the book? L Ron Hubbard of course!

Anything that happens can be explained as Gods Will by someone, it seems to take away the free will of Man. We should take responsibility for our achievments as well as our failings. Not give the credit to some non existent deity.

People with extreme religious beliefs are dangerous.

How come there are so many religions? Surely if there is a God he would make himself known so people could worship him and all the rest of the people could stop wasting their time.

How come there are so many facets to religions. Who knows how many types of christianity there are. This makes no sense to me, it just shows again that no one knows what is right or not, they are just guessing, but making out that what they say is right.

"I still have trouble with the concept that we have inherited some kind of sin and god had to create another human to send down here to be tortured to death in order to appease his own wrath."

I couldn't agree with this more. How twisted is that?

And on a personal note.

The Christian moral code is one I pretty much adhere to in my life (minus all the worshipping false idols and covetting thy neighbours wife stuff) and I respect it. I think it is a good, caring way to live. I also respect peoples choice to faith and religion, and I can never say 'God does not exist" 'All religions are wrong and anyone believes is a fool' because I don't know that that is true. I just can't believe myself and find it hard to understand how sane people can, with such overwhelming evidence to suggest otherwise.

And I'll end on an acusatory note, I really find very religious people smug and judgemental. I suppose I am too as I think anyone who is totally religious is a little unhinged but that is just how they come across to me.

I'm prepared for the Flames - Both in replies to this post and in the pits of Hell!!! Broo Ha Ha Ha

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