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Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1370
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 11:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Regarding these riots over the Muhammad caricatures, I wonder what he'd have to say about it if he could suddenly appear? I'm almost certain, in His Greatness, he'd tell everyone to just CHILL.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5398
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Word.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Jay Seven
New Member
Username: Riverliver

Post Number: 14
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 01:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You sure about that? Something tells me he'd say "KILL THE INFIDELS!"
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1779
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Then you probably haven't read too much about Muhammad's teaching.
 

Jay Seven
New Member
Username: Riverliver

Post Number: 15
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're right, I haven't. Enlighten me.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1781
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 10:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Like most prophets and/or saviors Muhammad spoke of devotion to God and to your fellow man. The pillars of Islam represent that devotion. However 1 pillar, that of Jihad has been perverted by certain followers. Literally Jihad means The Struggle. It is an all encompassing term meaning to fight the uphill battle. In the days of Muhammad that uphill battle or struggle had much to do with survival and practicing the other pillars of Islam in the face of adversity. Today is has been perverted to holy war.

Jesus has similar teaching. In fact Jesus is considered a prophet in the Islamic religion. He fought the good fight in his devotion to God. If Jesus were to return today, he would be shaking his head at Christianity just like Muhammad would be at Islam.
 

Bill Rehm
Member
Username: Lwr

Post Number: 117
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 11:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe it is just me, but this whole "KILL THE INFIDELS!" attitute the the world of Islam is spouting over and over again is starting to remind me of another group of people that wanted to kill everyone else that was not just like them. Thankfully the Nazi party of the early to mid 20th century did not go on for 1000 years. Let us hope we can put an end to this new insanity that we are faced with.

Please keep in mind that I am not grouping all those who follow Islam into this group.
 

Graham Cox
Intermediate Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 376
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 12:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, Bill, if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, sounds like a duck...

I spent quite a bit of time flying over Bosnia, and while I was doing so, I did quite a bit of study on the Islamic invasion of Europe - you know, that period of history that they conveniently ignore in favor of wailing and self-flagellating over "the crusaders" invading their precious sandbox, a sandbox they themselves invaded, prompting the Crusades (yet another inconvenient fact for them.)

When occupying a new territory in Europe (or anywhere else, for that matter), the tolerant, peace-loving Muslims (or is it "Islamists?" I never can figure that one out) would offer the denizens of the occupied territory three options:

1) Convert to Islam.
2) Pay us an impossibly confiscatory annual financial tribute.
3) If neither (1) or (2) are acceptable, we'll just lop your head off right here and be done with it.

Right out of the Koran.

You think I'm kidding? I'm not. The beheadings you see (or choose to ignore) today are more of the same, perverted though they may be from the original intent.

I'm not going to get into a drawn-out argument over religion, which is fraught with the same perils as an argument over politics. I've learned that I like you all better when we talk primarily about beer. Suffice it to say that I agree that some practitioners of Islam have perverted it to an extreme degree, but Islam is not an inherently peaceful religion that teaches tolerance or non-confrontational coexistence with other religions.

(Message edited by t2driver on February 09, 2006)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4641
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We shouldn't encourage the Islamic fundamentalists any more than the Christian variety. Fanning the flames of religious hatred has caused an incredible amount of strife over the centuries. The atrocities committed in the name of the same God worshiped by each of the world's three major monotheistic religions is both staggering and disgusting in my opinion.

I don't want any part of it, whether given or received.
 

Graham Cox
Intermediate Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 379
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 12:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Agreed, Bill. IMHO, religion is, and rightly so, a personal decision. It is not something to be imposed by force, particularly under threat of decapitation.

Are you Catholic? Are you a Jew? Are you a Protestant? Are you a Muslim? I ask these questions rhetorically, because I simply don't care. It's your business, and as long as you don't try to forcibly impose your religious views on me at the point of a knife, we'll get along just fine. Get in my face or show up on my doorstep uninvited when I'm trying to enjoy a homebrew, and we may have a problem.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2417
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, IIRC the five pillers of Islam,in no paticular order, are:

1. The conversion statement
2. Giving alms to the poor
3. The once in a lifetime pilgrimage to Mecca.
4. The five times a day prayers
5. Observance of the holy month of Ramadon.

Jihad is not part of the "Five Pillers."

--This space is again being left intentionally blank.-


 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1787
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 03:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan,
Jihad or "the Struggle" is considered to be the six pillar of Islam in some sects. The Shiah (the people we handed Iraq to) do not believe in any pillars and are more likely to take on Jihad as one of the tenents. Radical clerics of the shiah sect will pervert the struggle into Holy War. This is a small part of the shiah population and and even smaller part of Islam, but it is growing.

Back to the original post. The belief that a prophets picture should not be shown was never taught by Muhammad. It has come later. It is funny because they also believe that other prophets of Islam like Jesus and Moses should not be depicted. Most Islamic countries will ban movies that show Christ for this reason. He is one of their prophets and thus his likeness only distracts from his teachings.

I do not believe in organized religion. My eternal soul is much too important to me to give it to blind faith. I will question and learn about as many religions as I can. They all generally have the same themes. I got christian would be considered a good muslim and a good muslim would be considered a good jew. When you boil things down that is what you get.

Good thing we Christains don't ram our religion down other people's throats. If we did we might outlaw gay marraige or force teachers to teach creationism instead of natural selection.

-Doug

Edited to change sole to soul. My fingers fly faster than my brain, I promise I was not consuming mass quantities of homebew.




(Message edited by doug_p on February 10, 2006)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4646
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, I shouldn't mock your spelling, but it's hard not to smile at the notion of an "eternal sole." Now I have this image of feet or of fish. Thanks for the chuckle.
 

Bill Rehm
Member
Username: Lwr

Post Number: 119
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 02:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Allow me to qualify my earlier post....If at the time I wrote that I gave the impressing that there is good in Islam, I have not changed my mind. To me there is no difference between a regular Muslim and a Islamic fundamentalist. The past few days have shown this to be true for me.

I'm no student of religion, nor to I plan to sit down and waste my time trying to figure out why Islam is by far the MOST intolerant religion out there, you didn't see any Catholics killing people and burning KFC when Rolling Stone put Kanya (sp?) West on the cover mocking the crucified Christ. Believe me I'll take the Christian varitey over the Islamic fundamentalists every day of the week!
 

Scott Manning
Member
Username: Liquidbreaddiet

Post Number: 203
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ever heard of the inquisition Bill? - oh amd by the way how many other religions actively cover up known molestation of boys!!!
 

Bill Rehm
Member
Username: Lwr

Post Number: 120
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 06:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh I forgot, the Inquisition ...that was what 2 or 3 years ago right? Anyway, is a comfy chair so bad....you never expect the Spanish Inquisition! BTW, they didn't even know about yeast at that time in history we had alot to learn back then.

I'm not saying that my religion is perfect (personally I would like to see molesting preists, and any other sex criminal, locked up FOREVER). But who do you want living next door? A Catholic who drinks beer and plays bingo and thinks abortion is murder....or a Muslim that wants to kill your family simply because you are an infidel that drinks beer and eats pork while letting your wife show her face in public.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1803
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 07:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I sit a couple cubes away from a Muslim lady who shows her face and doesn't care that I drink beer or even that I make it. She has never once tried to kill me. Her and her husband seem like they would be the perfect people to live next to. But what do I know.

-Doug
 

Scott Manning
Member
Username: Liquidbreaddiet

Post Number: 204
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

my wife is muslim, shows her face, occasionally eats pork - and i live with her - but she doesnt want to go around killing people -does that make her an infidel?
 

Ron Siddall
Junior Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 08:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe according to the Wahabi version it probably does.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 2046
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, February 15, 2006 - 09:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"5. Observance of the holy month of Ramadon. "

That reminds me, many moons ago I was in bahrain (saudi arabia) briefly, and was looking forward to checking out the local area. Unfortunately, it coincided with Ramadon (public self-beating)... Good times.
 

Bill Rehm
Member
Username: Lwr

Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:29 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My guess is yes both would be considered infidels by the vast majority of Muslims in the world.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1804
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From Guessing to Pronouncing all of Islam Evil is a big step.
 

Bill Rehm
Member
Username: Lwr

Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 12:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not really if you take a look at what is going on......

http://www.anncoulter.org/cgi-local/welcome.cgi

A religion of peace? I guess it all depends on the meaning of peace.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1016
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 01:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do find it ironic that (as I hear it since I'm not a religious scholar) even though Muslims consider Jesus a prophet they don't get offended when he is mocked and ridiculed in any way, but when their main prophet is depicted in a non-threatening way they pillage and burn.

I guess next time I see Jesus portrayed on South Park I'll have to burn something down because evidently it's acceptable to pillage and burn if the prophet of your religion is portrayed in any way. Yeah right. Wonder how far a Christian could get away with that even though it's accepted when Muslims do it.

BTW Bill, good move there. Nothing pisses off a liberal more than Ann Coulter. Bravo!
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1805
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 02:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike,
The Passion was banned in Muslim countries for the same reason they get upset about depictions of any sort of the Muhammad. They teach the any depiction of a prophet distracts from that prophets teachings. This does not justify the riots that are going on now. And that was the main point of the original post.

This thread has turned into a "they are all evil and must die or convert to our ways" vs. "you are wrong on your generalization" thread.

There are over a million Muslims living in a small area in Michigan. There are no riots there. They certainly have the strength in numbers to wipe out a large number of non-muslims but don't. They allow their women to show their faces. They are the face of the Majority of Islam.

You see riots in countries where people have little to do and live for. They can build mass crowds of angry people because they don't have jobs to go to or much crops to attend to. This is a manufactured protest by the radical wing of Islam manipulating oppressed and poor people who are just looking for someone to blame for their problems/way of life.

Back to the original post. Muhammad would say to those rioters.....chill

-Doug
 

Scott Manning
Member
Username: Liquidbreaddiet

Post Number: 206
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike and Bill - if Ann Coulter is your source for valid information I would suspect you also believe the rantings of Dr. Laura and Dr. Phil are gospil. BTW both of which are not real doctors. Time to come out of the stone ages boys and just exist as a human being for once. - Come to the realization that not everyone is evil.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4703
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, I don't believe there are a million Muslims in Michigan, but there is a concentration of several hundred thousand Arab-Americans in the Detroit area. I happen to have been there last week, in the suburb of Dearborn, which is also the headquarters of Ford Motor Company. There are many ethnic shops and restaurants as well as mosques. I can't say that I felt any more threatened or out of place than I would in an Asian or Jewish neighborhood, for example.

Terrorism experts have said that one of the reasons there have not been any attacks in the US since 9/11 is that the American Muslim community is not supportive of al Qaeda or other extremist groups. They are forced to recruit their operatives outside of North America and try to infiltrate the US, which has proved difficult. This is in comparison to countries such as the UK and Spain, where at least a few among the local Muslim population have offered aid and support to the terrorists.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1017
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug/Scott:

fa·ce·tious Pronunciation (f-sshs)adj.
Playfully jocular; humorous: facetious remarks.

sar·casm Pronunciation (särkzm) n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1806
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike,
Sorry your sarcasm and jocular humor did shine through on your post to me. I am sure other people were simply laughing there tails off.

-Doug
 

Steve Sampson
Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 173
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just out of curiosity, are there muslim leaders that are actively speaking out against the rioting, or past criminal acts by radical muslim groups? You would think that there is a council of leaders somewhere that would feel compelled to let the rest of the world know that they are not associated with the extremist wing of muslims.
 

Ron Siddall
Junior Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Let see, the Spanish Inquisition happened over 500 friking years ago. Let's look at the last 100 years to see what has been happening:

WWI: Millions killed but not by religion. This was geopolitical.

WWII: Millions killed but not by religion. This was geopolitical

Nazi Death Camps: Millions killed and not by religion. This was ethinic cleansing.

Stalin Death Camps: Millions killed and not by religion. This was political.

Korea: Thousands killed for geopolitical reasons.

Vietaman: Thousands killed for geopolical reasons.

Cambodia: Millions killed for ethnic cleansing.

Kosovo: Thousands killed for ethnic cleansing.

Sudan: Hundreds of thousands killed for ethnic cleansing.

Irag: Thousands killed for geopolitical reasons.

Face the facts folks, policians make the wars because they have the armies. Religions do not have that power any longer.

As far as pedophelia, there are no priest, fathers, bishops et al out there advocating the molestation of children. There ARE muslim clerics out there preaching that the infidels must be killed.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1807
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve,
Yes there are, on a daily basis. Most news articles point this out if you read them through.

The President of Afghanistan was one of the first to call for an end to the riots and protests.

-Doug
 

Scott Manning
Member
Username: Liquidbreaddiet

Post Number: 208
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

With all this serious talk on this message board - I thought it would be nice to lighten the mood. Bill and Mike I found something for you that just might match the shade of red on your neck.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/General-lee-Roy-1997-Metro-Geo-Great-running-cond ition_W0QQitemZ4613230993QQcategoryZ6242QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1019
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, that's one funny car, but I do have to say I have an issue with being called a redneck. I consider myself a right leaning moderate, and just because I call 'em as I see 'em and I refuse to be a politically correct candyass doesn't make me a redneck. Heck, I don't even watch Nascar!
 

Ron Siddall
Junior Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 30
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Calling someone a redneck makes you a bigot.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1020
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Remember Ron, they who preach tolerance are typically the least tolerant.
 

Bill Rehm
Member
Username: Lwr

Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 07:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Policians don't make the wars because they have the armies they have armies and make war because it is human nature to do so. Put 100 like minded people on an island to live sooner or later someone is going to start a fight and the others will take sides and we have the world. It is the classic story.

It is like Elron McKenzie said, "Don't kill bugs. Everbody hates bugs, but why kill them. Sooner or later someone is going to think of you as a bug and the next thing you know you're gone. So don't kill bugs."

Call me what you will, close minded, bigotted, I'm ok with that. Heck, when my wife calls me an A-hole (which she does often), I smile and say thank you, I'm proud to be an A-hole!
 

Scott Manning
Member
Username: Liquidbreaddiet

Post Number: 209
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes Ron I am a bigot - you nailed me on that one. I'm glad you made sure to read and understand the definitions Mike put up for us

"fa·ce·tious Pronunciation (f-sshs)adj.
Playfully jocular; humorous: facetious remarks.

sar·casm Pronunciation (särkzm) n.
1. A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
2. A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
3. The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1."

I have no tolerance for the extremists who do stupid stuff like burn KFC'c etc because of a comic. Hell I laughed my ass off when i saw it. But - I don't perscribe to the narrow minded view that if one group is bad - all must be. If that were the case I would have to think this current administration is all a bunch of crooks, with thier assosiation to Abramoff. Oh wait that is a bad example. Sorry... I digress

I have to admit I am far from political correctness - and I think a thin skin is a sign of weekness. For the record I guess I call'em as I see'em too.

The politically incorrect candyassed biggot!!!!
 

Ron Siddall
Junior Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 31
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For someone who professes that thin skin is a weakness, you sure can get riled up.
 

Scott Manning
Member
Username: Liquidbreaddiet

Post Number: 210
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unfortunately email is not a good way to display emotion - again it is sarcasm
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1021
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 08:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott, I noticed you made reference to the current administration and their association to Abramoff. Convenient you left out all the Democrats that were tied to him. He was not exclusive to the GOP by an means.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1810
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay...not exclusively....just overwhelmingly
 

Bill Rehm
Member
Username: Lwr

Post Number: 124
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It always make me laugh when the Democrats start in on Republicans being criminals when one of the best known and loudest of the Lefts Senators committed at the very least guilty of vehicular manslaughter and when home to sleep if off.

“Er…ah….when I returned Mary Jo and the car where gone.”


I know it was a long time ago, but it is still ironic.
 

Ron Siddall
Junior Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 32
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, the Democrats are only slightly pregnant.

The fact is that 90% of ALL politicians are sleeze balls.
 

Ron Siddall
Junior Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 33
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 16, 2006 - 09:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Scott, I am just messin' with you. I really do not expect to change anyones way of thinking with my posts.
 

Scott Manning
Member
Username: Liquidbreaddiet

Post Number: 211
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Friday, February 17, 2006 - 09:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron No worries
 

Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 175
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 19, 2006 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

(Keep in mind that my own country has been specifically targeted in these riots, lest you think I'm biased)

Bill and Mike, please try to get a clue before painting a full fifth of the world's population with a broad brush. The riots you have seen on TV are a small, vocal minority, in many cases organized by the very governments who claim to be helpless to stop them. It is a political problem more than a religious one, where oppressive regimes are exploiting the situation to divert attention away from their own countries' internal problems.

Muslims all over the world are opposed to burning down embassies, and are downright embarrassed by the extremist minority, but as always the violent extremists make for better TV than the overwhelming majority of moderates. Norwegian reporters were recently strolling the streets of Tehran, where supposedly huge crowds were rioting against Norway and Denmark. They openly said they were from Norway and wanted to interview Iranians about the situation. They were not bothered a single time, every Iranian they met on the street was embarrassed about the riots, claiming the rioters were a very small extremist minority. And this was, as far as the reporters were able to ascertain, true.

What you guys are saying is every bit as bad as a European claiming that all Americans are nothing more than poor white roadkill-eating trash who live in trailer parks and inbreed.

(edited for perhaps a less extreme analogy, and some more comments)

Grow up!

Joakim

(Message edited by joques on February 19, 2006)
 

tobias magan
Member
Username: Magan

Post Number: 113
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 03:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joakim -

I think the cartoon jihad is having both negative and positive effects.

On the negative, it is probably a big recruiting boost for far-right parties in Europe and the US, like the German Republikaners.

On the positive side, the moderate Muslims that have been silent the last few years are now standing up and disassociating themselves from the radicals. This is a fantastic positive trend.

Here's to sanity and civilization!
 

Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 177
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 07:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tobias,

We can only hope.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1022
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What you guys are saying is every bit as bad as a European claiming that all Americans are nothing more than poor white roadkill-eating trash who live in trailer parks and inbreed.

You mean just like you did with the underlying tone of your post?
 

Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 178
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, that was not at all what I did. What I did was to take a stab at two individuals whom I thought made some very uneducated statements. That is not in any form or shape the same as painting all Americans with the same broad brush.

You do know how to read, don't you?
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1023
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 02:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, let me correct myself. You did not say it about all Americans, but you did use quite the condescending words and tone with two people of whom you know nothing about, just like you said we did towards all Muslims (which I personally did not, I'll let Bill speak for himself if he feels like it).

Seriously Joakim, you would have to live here in the States to understand what I mean. We understand not all Muslims are like this. But our media loves to broadcast crap like this and somehow try to turn it into the plight of the repressed Muslim or some BS like that. That's where my cynicism came in, if a Christian had burned anything in effigy due to a mockery of Jesus they would be rightfully treated as a psycho nut job and denounced appropriately by most, including our media. But somehow our media in this country manages to turn some psycho nut jobs in the Muslim faith into victims, just like they try to do with child molesters and murderers and rapists, but that's a different story for a different time.
 

Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 179
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, February 20, 2006 - 02:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, fair enough. I'm just home from work now, bone weary and have to bottle my hefeweizen today, so I'll try and give you a reply tomorrow. :-)
 

Bill Rehm
Member
Username: Lwr

Post Number: 125
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 21, 2006 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am only speaking based on what I am seeing. I am not searching out information on this subject, just taking in the news now and then. All I see in the news is more and more Muslims freaking out over a cartoon. I have not seen or heard one, not ONE single Muslim leader either in the US or anywhere else in the world speaking out against the riots and killing.

So I am basing my opinion on my knowledge and experience... Thankfully the world has such open-minded people as you to call the rest of us who don't agree with you uneducated!
 

Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 181
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 08:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, you have not bothered to search out any information other than what you see on the news, which is invariably the most dramatic and violent footage there is, to attract viewers, yet you make sweeping statements that every single muslim is an extremist.

That is ignorant.

You don't have to agree with my viewpoint, but you do need to make an effort to search out information beyond what the news shows serve to you if you are going to make those kinds of statements. And yes, imams here in Norway at least have spoken out against the violence. But I wouldn't expect Fox to cover that.

Mike, I don't necessarily agree that muslims are given more leeway than christians, but I don't have the facts to back it up so I won't press the point. Still, christians have hardly been up in arms about child molestations in the catholic church or the murder of abortion doctors, have they?

And yes, muslims are repressed in many ways. Mostly from their own governments, most of which are not democracies, and which have been supported by the West at one time or another. The Middle East has been used as a geopolitical chess board by the super powers for a long time, it is no wonder that there is hate fermenting. Saddam was a close friend to the US after the US instated shah of Iran was deposed in the revolution. Saudi Arabia is one of the most oppressive regimes in the Middle East, with human rights being broken left and right, and yet is a "valuable ally". Even Osama was a dear friend back when Russia were trying to occupy Afghanistan.

You too would be pretty angry if Canada and Mexico were fighting one another on your land, instating and toppling dictators in DC left and right. (yes, yes, highly hypothetical, I know.)

Joakim
 

Ron Siddall
Junior Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 35
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 22, 2006 - 04:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Still, christians have hardly been up in arms about child molestations in the catholic church or the murder of abortion doctors, have they?"

Are you kidding me? Instead of rioting, they let the rule of law handle this. As a result, we have peacefully incarcerated convicted priests as well as the bombers.

Rule of law based on OUR Constitution, that is what our nation is built on and that is what we follow.
 

Beerboy AKA The Jolly Brewer
Advanced Member
Username: Matfink

Post Number: 996
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, February 24, 2006 - 06:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Islam does not have any part of it religion that is present in practically every other religion pertaining to treating your neighbour as you would be treated yourself. I find this very hard to deal with as it is probably the most fundamental moral that I live my life by. And I think most people in the western world would count it as a very important factor in living peacfully.

Islam and the qoran does however have a lot of reference to shunning, destroying, killing those who do not believe in Mohammed and Islam. And I'm not making this up, it's true. The phophet was not like jesus, who was fundamentally peaceful (as far as we know). I'm not saying these are primary in islam, but they are there in the holy book.

Now, islam as practiced in the middle east is an incredibly powerful population control. People are indoctrinated into it from birth and know nothing else. Muslims in America and Europe can 'choose' to practice islam or not, they also see westerners for what they are, not just 'the infidel' as is portrayed in many middle eastern countries. As such thier views can become diluted a little and they become more 'moderate' muslims.

The flipside of this in the disillusioned youth, in disadvantaged areas in europe, or second generation muslims, especially young men, need someone to blame, and often thier religion becomes a focus, and their mental state a magnet for radical clerics to exploit. That is why we have fanatics.

I find this a very difficult situation as I am by nature a very liberal man, but I hate extreme religion with a passion, and I hate people forcing thier religion on other. I hate terrorism, and can see very few, if any circumstances where it is OK. I think the 'overreaction' to the cartoons is ridiculous and pathetic. One should be able to rise above it.

But my thought on wheter Muhammad would say 'chill',

I doubt it. I think he was a cult leader who made good....
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1050
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I may be a little late arriving with this and many of you may have seen this already, but if not it's worth watching. If you want to see a Middle Eastern woman with an excellent message (but also it seems, a death wish) you need to watch this video or if you just want to read the transcript.

(Message edited by mikhu on March 15, 2006)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2602
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 15, 2006 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Somewhere I read that the Islamic world is now going through a similar situation that the Christian world went through during the
Reformation. IIRC, that was very ugly too.

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Jonathan Henderson
Member
Username: Henderson1966

Post Number: 209
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, March 27, 2006 - 05:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Although the Middle East is not my area of specialization, teaching History has been my profession for 13 years now, both at the high school and college level.

I have had discussions with many Muslims at home and abroad, and they have all been great human beings and I have no axe to grind with Muslims in general. However, neither the Quran nor the Hadith portray Mohammed in any way that is palatable to modern sensibilities. I'll spare the citations (unless you want them), but Zarqawi is much closer to the type of Muslim Mohammed had in mind than these moderates today are. Any student of the Hadith would recognize that the beheading of Nicolas Berg was an exact re-enactment of a scene from Mohammed's own life when he publicaly beheaded the men of Beni-Qurayzah while having his followers shout "Allah o akbar" (God is great). Mohammed ordered that these beheadings (about 900 of them) take place in front of the wives and children of the victims, a detail Zarqawi attempted by putting it on the internet.

Terror is not an aberration from Islam, but goes back to the founder himself. And where there are tolerant Muslims today it is because they have unwittingly risen above the sordid nature of their religion.

I'm all for toleration, brotherhood, etc., but I won't ignore history. I don't know exactly how Mohammed would react to the cartoons, but I'm quite sure he would not "tell everyone to chill."
 

Joakim Ruud
Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 220
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 02:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>However, neither the Quran nor the Hadith
>portray Mohammed in any way that is palatable
>to modern sensibilities.

Jonathan, you are right. However, to be fair, neither is the Bible. Apart from the gospels themselves, most of the Bible is full of atrocities and, yes, terror. Killing firstborns? Plagues? Razing cities? Genocide?

I think we can agree that both these texts were written in times that were quite unlike our own, and that, while some fanatics of both religions adhere to their ancient and flawed texts literally, most modern practitioners of these religions are actually rational human beings.

Joakim
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 4947
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 02:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Muhammad seems like a prophet more in the Old Testament mode. There is a danger in interpreting the various scriptures as historical documents, but I agree with Joakim that those were different times, even if sometimes we don't seem to have advanced very far in terms of our morality.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 1868
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You also have to remember that the Quran was not written in Muhammad's time. His teachings were passed down by word of mouth until it became evident that teachings were being lost and their interpretations were being changed with each teacher of the spoken word. It is likely that when the Quran was written these more gastly teachings or perverions of teachings were written for some purpose in that time. Much like I was raised as a catholic that eat fish on Fridays during a certain time a year (yes I forgot) because Rome was a port city hundreds of years ago with the main export and product being fish. An interpretation was written for the time.

-Doug
 

Jonathan Henderson
Member
Username: Henderson1966

Post Number: 210
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The visions of Muhammed that became the Quran were written down in Muhammed's life time when he was still in Mecca, before the hijra from which the foundation of the religion is usually dated. The Quran we have today was standardized by Uthman, the third caliph and son-in-law of Muhammed.

I agree, Joakim, and would not defend Old Testament violence either.

But from religious point of view, the danger in denying the historicity of an authorative text is the loss of orthodoxy itself, which is my point.
 

David C Johnson
Junior Member
Username: Daveofsherwood

Post Number: 49
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 03:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Such great stories handed down by great story tellers of our age (ages) have been twisted and manipulated by lesser human minds for the sole purpose of control and enslavement. These less than human beings rob us of an enlightened message contained by wise words within each and every great religion. I hope one day we will rise and fight for that very reason against the true oppressors in our world.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 2670
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, March 29, 2006 - 03:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The "histories" of sacred texts are full of "agendas."

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