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Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3249
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 01:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Does anyone have any good supportive arguments to israels behaviour?

I am still not updated on the how's and why's but from the news feeds it doesn't make much sense to me. And even though it's far away from my part of the world, the behaviour upsets me.

It seems the capture of the soldiers was some kind of attempt to free people capture by israel - people that according the the news isn't even soldiers?

So far that's fair enough to me. If you are a soldier, that's part of your job and it can happen, isn't it?

But what's the excuse to keeping civilians? (if true) Maybe the israelis hold civilians because they suspect they are terrorists? or what? or do they simlpy capture anyone who can't be proven to NOT be terrorists?

If so that sucks. I don't get it. How come the world community doesn't do anything? Does this mean everyone thinks israel is acting properly?

If so, can someone explain to me? It has not hit me through the news fed. All I see is escalating violence, and that alone makes little sense.

/Fredrik
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 5757
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, I wouldn't want to justify Israel's actions, nor those of its Arab opponents, but I can try to explain what drives the situation. This is not a war but an insurgency. It's sometimes largely a technicality as to who is a soldier and who is a civilian. When someone can appear to be a teenage boy or a middle-aged woman at one moment and a suicide bomber the next, it becomes very difficult to determine who is the "enemy." The "rules of engagement" devised for conventional warfare are almost entirely inadequate for dealing with these kind of conflicts. Uniformed soldiers are often at a distinct disadvantage.

I agree with you about the escalating violence, but I also don't see much of a solution. The "world community" has been mostly ineffective at dealing with it.

(Message edited by BillPierce on July 14, 2006)
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3250
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I indeed agree that it doesn't seem to properly comply to the classical picture of old fashioned war.

This makes it even more disturbing to me that the solutions seems to all center around armed tension.

To respond to stupidity with an even larger dose of the same, is just sad. And it impresses nonone.

To me it seems more like some kind of society problem, or perhaps communication problem.

What kind of lives does these people have? Should the first measure be to provide everyone with a chance to live their lives.

Maybe I am an idealist but with the exception of degenerate invididuals (they will always exist) I think that anyone that chooses to comitt his life to living in war at all cost is in serious need of help - help that the rest of the world should supply them with, whatever it may be.

I think we need an alien attack to bring peace on earth, just to restore the perspective?

/Fredrik
 

Tim Wi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 482
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 03:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think we need an alien attack to bring peace on earth, just to restore the perspective

Fredrik, military action is required to bring about peace?

T
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3252
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 04:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No I don't think so :-) But maybe an external "threat" may unite us. It doesn't have to be a "military" threat. Maybe a global environment threat may work as well. Who cares who gets to build a house on the golan heights when the atmosphere is destroyed? We need to cooperate or we will have nothing left to fight about.

Maybe we need something to break the pshycosis and bring back the perspective of earth in the universe.

/Fredrik
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3063
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 12:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Regarding the Mid East, all the "good options" are long gone. We are just left with the bad ones and they just keep getting worse and worse.

Dan

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Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3255
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> they just keep getting worse and worse

Agreed.

But it seems to me the cause of this negative spiral is the sick philosophy behind the responses? It should be obvious that in a game where the rules are to respond to provocations with an equal; or larger provocation does not have a peaceful equilibrium even from a mathematical point of view as a infinitesimal fluctucation will eventuelly escalate into full blown conflicts.

"An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" and the philosophy of "offensive defense" is certainly part of the problem, isn't it?

The only possible long term solution is to change the rules. Maybe the absence of such change is because people see that such change are unlikely to be realized in their lifetime, and thus it does not solve the problem for the current generation.

/Fredrik
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3067
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, July 14, 2006 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Mid-East is an excellent example of what happens when you mix religion and politics. Somebody should have given that fact more consideration before we went on the WMD/snipe hunt.

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Tim Wi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 484
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Mid-East is an excellent example of what happens when you mix religion and politics.

So was Afghanistan. Look what happened when we left a barbaric theocracy unfettered to harbor terrorists.

The only thing that matters is whether a state will allow terrorists within its borders, or otherwise aid terrorists in any way. If they do, they are not just our enemy, but the enemy of all peace and civilization.

And yes, I believe that once we have said that any state aiding terroists in any way is making war on the world, and that state persists in its aid, then by their action they have declared war on all and are fair game. Deride it as unilateralism if you will, or any other perjorative that may suit you, but the fact is plain, when someone is engaged in the act of killing you, you are a fool to wait for anyone to risk themselves to help. Your only recorse is to save yourself. That is what I call, unilateralism.

T
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3071
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Who Ra!" Tim, FWIW.

Nice sentiment, but an easy recipe for a lot of problems if you are not careful. Case in point, Iraq. We are tied down there and unable to address other, problems, real problems, in a crediable way.

It is my suspicision that organized violence is quickly becoming obsolete as a means to solve problems. IEDs and suicide bombers are today's Col. Colt's "great equalizer."

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Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 74
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 02:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Our undoing will be the fact that we are held, and hold ourselves to higher standards when it comes to how we conduct ourselves during wartime.

We have also been bamboozled into believing that we are fighting a war on terror. Terror is a tactic, not an enemy. You can't wage war against a tactic. Our own politically correct attitudes have hog-tied us and have prevented us from identifying who the real enemy is, and until our leaders have the balls to admit that we are really fighting Islamo-Fascism, we are lost.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3256
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am more along Bob's definition of terrorist. It's just someone not playing by your rules. IMO we need to face reality and see that this is not a "game". Perhaps some countries are large enough to dominate world economics, but no country alone makes the rules.

This is not a very dimplomatic way of doing things, but I can see that in certain circumstances it's the only strategy left.

I do not like voilence. And I do not like people of earth beeing killed, but I can not see the logic behind thinking that anyone carrying "terrorism" by definition is wrong? Because terrorism is as it seems relative concept.

From what I recall some countries consider hezbollah to be "terrorists", but some consider them to be a resistance, so which is it? and who is right? and does it really matter who is right?

To me this view of the world in terrorists and non-terrorists, isn't clear to me, because terrorist to me seems relative.

I think it's dangerous to call other people terrorists and stop negotiations because it risks feeding them.

Would it really work to challange some of these so called terrorists on a "fair game"? How would such a fair game look like? Hezbollan leader vs israels leader in a fist fight?

A classic fronline war of israeli army vs hezbolla dudes would hardly be a fair game would it as israel would wipe hezbollad to the wall. It's a game hezbolla would never play, right? because it's not fair either.

Doesn't the superior party engaging into a armed conflict is beg to be challanged for a unfair game. Or underestimating the enemies intelligence. I think noone, under attacked by an overpowering enemy would care obout playing by any rules because the game is unfair to start with, isn't it?

/Fredrik
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 75
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

War is about killing people. Nothing more, nothing less. It is only over when one side realizes the other will not stop until they are all dead, and surrenders. I cannot see a future where either Israel or the so-called Palestinians will ever surrender to the other. The killing will continue.

Western civilization is under attack from an old foe using a new tactic. Our ancestors were able to stop the violent spread of Islam in Europe because they were willing to fight and die to prevent it's spread. I do not think Western Civilization today has the same will to live as our ancestors. Hell, we cannot even name our enemy for fear of being called intolerant.

We are doomed.

Today, we willingly accept into our population people who we see as lowly immigrants, but who are really agents of Islamic expansion. Sleeper cells would be an accurate term. When they are in the severe minority, they remain quiet and docile, appearing to be mild mannered, and hard working people. Once they grow in size to a large enough population, the unrest begins, they begin to make demands that they be subject to Sharia Law. Just look at what is happening in France, England, Canada, and even the Netherlands and Sweden! The same thing has already happened in the Sudan. But nobody in the United Nations has lifted a finger because it is BLACK Christians who are being slaughtered as I type this.

The West needs to wake up and smell the falafel. Islam is a violent, expansionist, death-cult bent on world domination.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3257
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do not think this is an islam only problem. There are Christian freaks as well and they are no better IMO - who is "terrorising" the US abort clinics? Are these people sent to Guantanamo without trial? Why not? Are christian terrorists better than islamic ones? And there are non-religous freaks too of all kinds.

/Fredrik
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 76
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2006 - 11:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You are exactly the reason that Islam will eventually conquer the West. You have your head buried in the sand when it comes to recognizing their naked aggression.

Yes, there is Eric Robert Rudolph and a few other Christian whackos who have committed acts of terror in a vain attempt to further their cause, but these few random acts pale in comparison to the world-wide epidemic of Islamist terrorist acts. As of today, Islamic terrorists have carried out more than 5,362 deadly terror attacks since 9/11. When was the last time an abortion clinic was bombed?

Monthly Jihad Report (June, 2006)

Jihad Attacks: 212
Dead Bodies: 762
Critically Injured: 1201

What are the stats of Christian Terrorist attacks in the month of June? I would really like you to find out for me.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3258
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 07:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I disagree with you and I think there is no way they will conquer the west due to this. However we must stop showing our disgust for them.

I have not stats for Christian terror, and I don't really care. I just raised the point that I do not think exterminating islam will generate peace in the world.

I think the attitude against islam you desribe, alone, will FEED their aggressions. The islamic parts of the world is obviously threatened by this attitude. Feeding weapons and support into israel is probably a symbolic act for them. We need more diplomacy. As for terrorists we need to set an example of howto behave. So far the western world has not even been able to live up to this. We can't expect these guys to behave civilized when we can't do it ourselves.

So I don't think Islam per see is the problem, nor removal of it, is the solution. Yes there are some islamic fundamentalist that could need some help in life, but I'm sure these people would have found a way to make trouble even without islam. These folks need integration into civiliazation, not isolation.

/Fredrik
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 5781
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 03:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Characterizing terrorism as a religious holy war is playing into the hands of Islamic extremists and provides them with precisely what they seek.

[I am editing this to clarify my meaning.]

I'm not saying that the Islamic extremists don't view the situation as a jihad, but if we accept this premise ourselves we are buying into their world view and ceding control of it to them. While they may see this as a war on Christianity, I believe it would be a tragic and immense mistake to advocate a war on all of Islam. This would only force the majority of far more moderate and peaceful Muslims (and Christians, for that matter) to take sides and bear the consequences.

The results of religious wars throughout history have been catastrophic. Surely some of those lessons have not been forgotten.


(Message edited by BillPierce on July 16, 2006)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3079
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2006 - 11:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have read that Islam is now going through something similar to what Christianity went through during the Reformation - at about the same age of the religions. The big difference perhaps now is that the world is a much smaller place and the "demons" are easier to identify.

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Tim Wi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 485
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 01:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We need more diplomacy. As for terrorists we need to set an example of howto behave.


Try your philosophy on the would be mollester of your daughter. Show him, diplomaticly, your example of how to behave in a proper and civilized fashion. He will instantly see your good will and your wish for peace and tranquility, and will instantly break off his attack and abandon further violence. You will have shown him the way!

T
 

dhacker
Intermediate Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 318
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 01:41 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The results of religious wars throughout history have been catastrophic. Surely some of those lessons have not been forgotten.

Sorry Bill, but I believe history provides irrefutable evidence that mankind has either learned little by his past mistakes, or just doesn't care if it aids and abets certain agendas. Can't say I have much confidence in the current handful of "leaders" to guide the rest of the 6 billion plus to the promised land of peace and security. They haven't been able to for thousands of years, what makes anyone think they can in the next couple hundred millennia?
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3259
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 08:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tim, I didn't say I think it is easy.

I think the preferred way happens to be the hard way, which is probably why it's rarely chosen. It would really take a strong and convincing leader to pull something like that off. Unfortunately we lack such leaders.

Intuitively the phsycological the response may be anger and desire for revenge and this is the "animal in us". But I think this response is the cause of the escalation. We need to think again what the goal is: revenge or peace? We can't have both.

I think a dimplomatic solution has to be where the rights of both sides are acknowledged. There can be no peace until this happens.

The current picture I get from the news feed and what worries me, and is exactly why this can lead to world war 3, is the skewed view the israel has the right the "defend themselves" by killing civilians, but when hezbollah does the same, they are terrorists. This view itself is obviously a provocation to all the neighbours, including syria and iran. This direction of the development is so obvious and dangerous and it needs to be stopped.

I think the solution is not to keep backing up israel in anything they do - this is what can expand the conflict. I think the world need to say to israel that their killing of civilias are as bad as hezbollah killing - to show the WORLD (not just US and europe) that the western world seeks a FAIR resolution to the conflict, not a solution where peace is brought upon the area by killing israles enemis, because this would for sur alert all the middle east neibhbours into a major war.

NOT using dimplomacy is what I think may cause the conflict to grow. I think both the parties should feel te support from the rest of the world. Not just one side.

The G8 and UN failed to even make a silly "statement" properly.

/Fredrik
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 78
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 03:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik,

I see that you are a person who has thoughtful insight and a high sense of morality. The problem here is that the enemy does not share your values and has yet to show the world that they can behave in any sort of civilized fashion. Diplomacy has been tried and it has failed. Israel pulled out of Gaza and other parts of the occupied territories and what did they get? Rocket attacks. When Israel pulled out of Gaza, the so-called Palestinians declared it as an Israeli defeat and were chanting in the street "Today Gaza, Tomorrow Jerusalem". Within days, they were firing rockets at Israeli civillian targets.

You and many others in the world are wrong to condemn Israel for their actions. Israelis get killed on a daily basis by Islamist suicide bombers and there is not a peep from the international community. But once Israel actually does something about it and goes after legitamate military targets and Hizbollah troop concentrations, they get condemned for using excessive force. This reveals the fact that Anti-Semitism is not dead and much of the world despises the fact that there is a Jewish state.

I would be inclined to exercise diplomacy with an enemy who showed at least an ounce of decency and human compassion, but this is not the enemy the Israelis are fighting. This is an enemy who hates Israel and its people not for what they did, but for who they are. You can delude yourself as much as your high moral values will allow, but you will never be able to brush under the rug the fact that Israel is in a fight for it's life and has a right to exist, and defend itself accordingly.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Ron Siddall
Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 111
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay Dan, you are now President of the United States.

Serious question....what is your solution to get both sides to stop fighting?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3084
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There are no good solutions left. They are all bad now. I would like to see what happens if we pull all of our support out of the region. No more aid, nothing. Evidently the aid we are giving the area is not effective. Bribing them to behave has not worked, let's try starving them.

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Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3260
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 08:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think the hate you mention will not decrease with the current actions, it increases. I don't know if israel and US "doesn't see it", or if they "don't care"? The latter would be even worse of course, because it implies lack of respect of many things.

IMO, moral rights and respect needs to be earned, not conquered. It takes more guts to hold back your revenge than not to.

Receive a punch - respond with a harder punch, and you just earned that first punch. You can't both "get even" AND make claims on moral level. That is my opinion. Get even, and you lower yourself to their level. It's your choice.

It's not longer a question of who started it, it's howto end it.

/Fredrik
 

Ron Siddall
Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 113
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 08:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Receive a punch - respond with a harder punch, and you just earned that first punch"

Fredrik, is it your supposition that the world would of been better off if the United States had not entered WWII against Germany? After all, one of the reasons for doing so was that Germany "punched us" by sinking our merchant marine ships with their submarines. Should we not have punched back?
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1185
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 09:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I will admit I had you pegged wrong all along. I always thought you were a loony leftist, but your latest post goes against all things liberal. Personally I like the idea. Let's see how the rest of world lives for a few months without the billions of dollars in aid from the "Great Satan". I wonder how many people in the world only watch news like the BBC and therefore think the US is just an aggressor. I'm sure those people don't realize how much support and aid we give to almost every country on this planet.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1186
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 09:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, here is part of an interesting article from James Taranto (WSJ) on his "Best of the Web" from today. Don't be so quick to criticize Israel.

Best of the Web Today - July 17, 2006

By JAMES TARANTO

Shiite Hits Fan
Let's look at the bright side, shall we? There are quite a few countries that have waged war on Israel before (1948, 1967, 1973) but are not doing so now. Jerusalem is formally at peace with Egypt and Jordan. Iraq is busy recovering from Saddam Hussein's misrule. And as the New York Times reports, Saudi Arabia, among others, is actually taking Israel's side, sort of:


Key Arab governments have taken the rare step of blaming Hezbollah, underscoring in part their growing fear of influence by the group's main sponsor, Iran.

Saudi Arabia, with Jordan, Egypt and several Persian Gulf states, chastised Hezbollah for "unexpected, inappropriate and irresponsible acts" at an emergency Arab League summit meeting in Cairo on Saturday.

The Saudi foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal, said of Hezbollah's attacks on Israel, "These acts will pull the whole region back to years ago, and we cannot simply accept them." Prince Faisal spoke at the closed-door meeting but his words were reported to journalists by other delegates.

Israel is at war ostensibly with Lebanon, whence have come kidnappings of soldiers on the border and rocket attacks on Israeli cities. But the government in Beirut is disunited and unable to control its own territory, as Ha'aretz reports;

On Saturday Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Siniora called for state's authority to extend over southern Lebanon.

In an emotional address to the nation, he called on the Lebanese public "to work to extend the state's authority over all its territories, in cooperation with the United Nations in southern Lebanon."

Siniora called for an immediate cease-fire with Israel, and asked for help in deploying the country's army in the south, from where Hezbollah has for days pounded northern Israel with Katyusha rockets.

Siniora also called on Lebanon to "work to recover all Lebanese territories and exercising full sovereignty of the state over those territories."

Hezbollah, a Shiite terrorist group, doubles as a political party and is part of Siniora's government. But plainly it is acting on its own, and Lebanon continues to take a pounding from Israel because the government in Beirut is too weak to surrender. This led to a rather amusing exchange last week at the United Nations, in which Israel's ambassador, Dan Gillerman, lectured his Lebanese counterpart, as CNSNews.com recounts:

"You know, deep down, that if you could, you would add your voice to those of your brave countrymen. You know, deep down in your heart, that you should really be sitting here, next to me, voicing the same opinion," said Gillerman.

"You know that what we are doing is right, and, if we succeed, your country will be the real beneficiary. I am sure many of our colleagues around this table and in this chamber, including many or our neighbours, share this sentiment," Gillerman added.

Those neighbors--Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, etc.--are Sunni, while Hezbollah and its patron Iran are Shiite. The dictator of Syria, which backs Hezbollah (and also Hamas, which is attacking Israel from the unoccupied Gaza Strip) belongs to the Alawite sect, a Shiite offshoot. So it is the Shiites shooting while Sunnis sit on the sidelines.

Here is the whole thing if you are at all interested:

http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110008668
 

Ric Heinz
Intermediate Member
Username: Rheinz

Post Number: 395
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting read from an e-mail I received today:

"If any of you still feel that this war on terror is a mistake, here is an opinion from an unexpected source. It's fascinating that this should come out of Europe. Mathias Dapfner, Chief Executive of the huge German publisher Axel Springer AG, has written a blistering attack in DIE WELT, Germany's largest daily paper, against the timid reaction of Europe in the face of the Islamic threat.

This is a must-read by all Americans. History may well certify its correctness.

EUROPE - THY NAME IS COWARDICE

(Commentary by Mathias Dapfner CEO, Axel Springer, AG)

A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives, as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe, where for decades, inhuman suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European Appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U.N. Oil-for-Food program.

And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic Fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany?

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists. One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler and declaring European "Peace in our time".

What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness. Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for Anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against Democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.

On the contrary - we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World d Champions of "tolerance", which even (Germany's Interior Minister) Otto Schily justifiably criticizes. Why? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy - because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation... Or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "reach out to terrorists. To understand and forgive".

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.

Appeasement?

Europe, thy name is Cowardice."
Ric
Flatfender Brewing, NW Houston
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3085
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, July 17, 2006 - 11:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, I had you pegged as a "bomb them into the stone age" rightist.

As far as foreign aid, on a per capita basis, we Americans are on the low end of the developed nations' scale and the bulk of it goes to the Mid-east. Throw in the cost of "Bush's Folly" in Iraq, and you have to wonder if we are getting our money's and lives worth. I am starting to think that we should have let Sadham take Saudi Arabia before screwing around in the first Gulf War. At least then we would not have to act like we like him by holding his hand in Crawford.

If I were President, I might look to Clinton's example in the Balkens. After a nice Oval Office blow job, I would unleash the Air Force and the Navy on the whole region with a total blockaid and disrupt all power generation. We could not use the Army. It is just about ruined in Iraq. I say let them sit there in the dark without air conditioning for a while - as long as it takes. Let them pull water up from wells by hand and think back to how wonderful refrigeration was. A pox on all their houses! I am sorry, I am through with them.

Oh, did I mention that we did not lose a single service man to combat during the Balken conflict? Neat, huh?

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Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 5783
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not that it doesn't have some currency, but the article Ric cites above was published in early 2003 when the international debate raged prior to the American invasion of Iraq.

My real objection to it is the implied linking between the US involvement in Iraq and the current conflict between Israel and Arab militants in Lebanon and Gaza. In a similar vein there were attempts to link Iraq to the 9/11 attacks on the US. While certainly there are some general common elements among them, each is a distinct situation with very different causes and participants.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3087
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Mid-East problems are a mix of oil and religious fundementalism. Not a pretty picture.

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Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 06:06 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan,

How much oil do Lebanon and Israel produce?

Let's stay on focus here.

There is a simple and fundamental question that needs to be answered by the international community. And the answer to that question will be seen in how each individual country on the world stage responds to the current crisis. All we need to do is remember the question, and observe the actions of the international community. The question is:

Does Israel have a right to exist?

I know what my answer is. Do you know what your answer is? (not just Dan, but everyone here) Do you have the courage to live up to your convictions? I ask these questions because I feel that the world will soon be engulfed in a conflict as never seen before, and those of us who survive must be ready and willing to do what it takes to not only survive, but to ensure that the world will be a better place afterward.

I sincerely hope I am wrong about the vision I have of the near future.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3261
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 09:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I haven't studied WWII in detail so I won't comment on the details. Clearly Hitler's killing of jewes was an unacceptable crime, and a response was needed. So much is clear. Then how it was done I can't comment because I didn't study it. I have some serious doubts about the method of nukings of hiroshima and nagasaki though.

About opinions in Europe, there are plenty of people in europe that also favour more military solutions. That's no surprise to me.

> Does Israel have a right to exist?

I guess this is complex and I'm not qualified to discuss details. I just oppose to the violent solutions. I am not entirely sure if the assignment of israel back after WWII was done properly. After all, there was already people living there right? Did they agree on their country beeing given away?

I do not have the answers to these questions, but I don't like the killing. Both sides are killing civilians and i don't see the excuse. And there is no way it qualifies as "accidents". Israels killing is no better than the suiciders - it is really the same thing. If israel would respond with appropriate and restrictive actions, they might be able to stay at a higher moral level than their enemy, and thereby earn the support from the entire world! And the world would unite against the aggressions. This will not happen as long as they make themselves guilty of the same crimes they condemn.

I believe you have the right to defend yourself, but the recent trend of active attacks as defense seems to be like a dangerous development.

I do not want to contribute to this development of the world. I don't think it leads to *real* peace. It rather just leades to tension and possibly artificial and unstables peace. It also justifices the use of violence. If the biggest are supposedly the most civilized countries in this world can make kill, in the name of a good thing, why can't everyone else?? THIS is IMO the single mosts serious consequence of the current development.

I do not want a peace that needs to be maintained by armed forces. That's not peace!

It seems to me you that give no hope for diplomacy have given up on real peace. Do you think you can "scare the terrorists to peace". That's not going to work. Since the "terrorists" are scattered throughout the world, you'd have to kill the entire planet ot make this stop. And as you do so, the terrorists may in fact grow. I will not participate in such moronic strategy.

If this makes me a leftist hippie so be it. But I will not let myself be deillusionised by the dark side.

/Fredrik
 

Steve Sampson
Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 208
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could someone explain the situation as far as Israels land? I was under the impression that the land they occupy now, was original taken from the Palestinians, after the Holocaust, as a sort of reparation. Is this correct?

If that is correct, is it any surprise that Palestine is basically at war with Israel?

Fredrik, as far as Israel taking a moral high ground, and gaining support from the rest of the World, fat chance. It seems to me that nobody really cares what the hell is going on in the rest of the world, as long as they are safe in their neutral country. They have their own problems and don't want to use the resources. Its not their problem untill their people start being intimidated, sad really.
 

Steve Sampson
Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 209
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 12:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, and I should add, that any international organization that is supposed to be there to bring the world together, is nothing but a bunch of corrupt A-Holes that only care about being bribed to become rich. Much like politicians in general.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1187
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, diplomacy does not work with these terrorists. Clinton spent 8 years kissing up to terrorists and that got us 9/11.

Steve - you nailed it. The UN is a noble concept. However, the current UN is a corrupt bunch of crooks that serves no value whatsoever. I believe we do need a world governing body like the UN, but the current participants need to go, starting at the top.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3089
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Clinton spent 8 years kissing up to these terrorists and that got us 9/11."

Please expand on this one.

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Tim Wi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 486
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Steve,

Too much history for this thread, it goes back 3,000 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_%28region%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

Decide for yourself, if you can.

Tim
 

Steve Sampson
Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 210
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thats alot to digest, I think a good way to sum it up, is its pretty much one giant ClusterF**k over there.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1188
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh c'mon Dan, read a little bit. Do yourself a favor and don't take the mainstream media's love of all things Clinton as gospel. I could pass along a couple book titles to read that would encourage some questioning in your mind of the wonderful Billy Bob, but I'm guessing you wouldn't be interested.

Tim, a word of warning on the use of Wiki. There are people on this board that just blow it off and treat it as bogus when the articles on it don't agree with what they believe to be true. I agree that it is a good reference, but others don't see it that way.
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 82
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, you sadden me with your inability to answer one simple question regarding Israel's right to exist without dancing on the head of a pin.

Steve, There was no state of Palestine. The land of Israel was carved out of Transjordan. That is why I refer to them as "so-called Palestinians".
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3262
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not that I know much about US politics but, Clinton is to blaim for 9/11? yeah right.

Well if Clinton really got 9/11, Bush might get you WW III.

Stop the aggression Now, or be prepared to face responsibility for escalation, thatīs the message to the parties should be IMO. Itīs not accetable to let this pass. To the extent possbile the parties should pay for the damage in infrastructure.

You say diplomacy doesnīt work. I am not convinced. We should try harder. If the world spent as much money on diplomacy as on weapon technology I am sure we would have done more. There got to be reaserch on this? And I am even less convinced that voilence works. The side effects are overwhealming.

Ok, israel bombed lots of lebanese infrastrucutre. Fine, but they should be made pay to rebuild it, bit by bit. The same applies for the damaged of the otherside of course. Itīs just that I have a clear feeling israel destroyed alot more than hezbollah.

/Fredrik
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3263
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> Fredrik, you sadden me with your inability to answer one simple question regarding Israel's right to exist without dancing on the head of a pin.

The simple answer is that I donīt know. There is alot i donīt know. My answer is that, provided the people of palestine was part of the agreement of assignment of isral, yes the obviously have a right to their land. If not, no.

Still, israel occupies more than it was assigned to.

I think the solution would be to listen to both sides claims. Perhaps even opening the question of someone was unjust treated when israel was assigned. If so, UN has a responsibility.

But thatīs not the main thing. I object to the way of solving problems. Military force.

> Steve, There was no state of Palestine.

State is just a meaningless word and a matter of paperwork. What about the people living there?

/Fredrik
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3091
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sad response, Mike. I trust you understand why I can't take it seriously.

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Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1189
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Clinton is not SOLELY to blame for 9/11, but he sure as hell could have prevented it if he spent more time paying attention to our enemies instead of playing hide the pickle.

(Message edited by mikhu on July 18, 2006)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3092
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sure, blame it on the blow jobs.

Hindsight is 20-20.

How about this for hindsight? Bush should have not invaded Iraq.

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Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1190
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I apologize for my weak response, but I really don't have time to research it for you. There is plenty of info out there that describes how Clinton neglected our military and endangered our national security, you just need to WANT to look for it. I understand that is a hard thing to want to do for a blame Bush first fellow like yourself.

And don't bother telling me I need to look in the mirror. I don't need to research to get all the dirt on Bush, the mainstream media is more than happy to supply that for me on a daily basis. FYI, before you accuse me again of being a Bush supporter, I would not vote for him were he up for re-election, and not because of Iraq, but because of his turning into a liberal in many ways, i.e. he has never met a tax/defecit dollar he wasn't willing to spend.

(Message edited by mikhu on July 18, 2006)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3093
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 03:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, have you ever considered that Bush deserves the blame for Iraq????

Come around the time of the elections here, we will have been engaged in Iraq as long as we fought WWII, yet we are told that we are making progress. Maybe Rove has managed to redefine the word "progress."

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Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1191
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 04:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I do agree that Iraq is Bush's war. I still refuse to run with the conspiracy theorists that say they manufactured intelligence though. I believe they had intelligence (which has now proven to be flawed, but we obviously did not know it at that time) that showed that Iraq was a threat. It's been shown that Saddam was a willing supporter of terrorists through funding and weaponry. Call me naive, but I still believe they thought they were doing the right thing at the start of Iraq. Saddam avoided and deceived the UN inspectors, what were we supposed to think?
 

Steve Sampson
Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 212
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

These questions bring about so many more questions....

Where is the rest of the world, did they care about Iraq???

Should we have???

Was the UN doing an adequate job of investigating, even not taking into account that we know now the UN is corrupt???

Since we know now that the UN is corrupt, do we abide by their "laws"???
 

Tim Wi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 487
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 04:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bush should have not invaded Iraq.

Actually, my view has always been that Clinton SHOULD HAVE in 1998 when Saddam kicked out the inspectors.

As for 2003...

WMDs represent the POTENTIAL to do mass murder. So our justification was only about the mere potential? Hell no, WMD arguments pro and con are sound bytes for the simple-minded.

Saddam was the WMD. Saddam did not just represent potential, his state murdered hundreds of thousands.

It is just to take down a regime that employs mass murder, and murder and rape generally as a matter of state policy. Not only did the free world have the right to take out Saddam's regime, it had a solemn obligation to do so, as it does with all regimes that are corrupt and murderous.

The principle is simple, the strong have an obligation to come to the aid of the weak. Some of our leadres have been weak, and sought the expedient or the convienent, rather than doing what must be done, leaving it to the next to sit in office. Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, Bush, I don't care who.

If you are in a hotel room, and know that a woman in the room next to you is being beaten and raped, you are depraved if you fail to act. Whether that is by picking up your trusty side-arm and dispatching the scum bag, or, if you feel that others should do your fighting, picking up the phone and calling for help (and prolonging the agony of the victim).

In the Hotel WORLD, you cannot dial "911". There is no world police. There is only a dissembling, self-important, hand-wringing pompous blow-hard collection of pussified PC pursuers that is the UN.

So we must have a world neighborhood watch, one that includes at least one member that is willing to go kick in a door and shoot the raping bastard.

Tim
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1192
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 04:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is only a dissembling, self-important, hand-wringing pompous blow-hard collection of pussified PC pursuers that is the UN.

 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3097
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 04:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The weekly shifting rationle for the invasion get laughable eventually. It was a goof up - pure and simple.

Ask "Little Bush" about being the World's Policeman BEFORE he invaded Iraq. Hell, ask him now and listen to the double talk.

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Tim Wi
Intermediate Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 488
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 05:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He did the right thing. I don't care what his motives were then, nor do I care what he says his motives are now.

T
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3098
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 05:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Little Bush did the WRONG thing then and now. We will pay for this gaffe for decades in prestige, money and lives. I sadly predict that it will cost us our superpower status eventually. It has already decimated our Army and Marines forces. An Air Force Lt. Col. friend of mine tells me that Airmen and Seamen are being given infantry training instead of instituting a draft. It won't take long for that stunt to get out and yield "results."

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Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3264
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 05:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think we are talking about two different things here?

A major part of your defence for the killing and use of violence seems to be that "you are right and they are wrong", thus we have the right to kill in the name of the truth - this makes almost no sense to me. IMO it is dangerous to be that categoric. In a conflict there are always two sides. Obviously both sides think they are right and the other side is wrong. And sometimes it's just not that easy, that one side is right and the other side is wrong. So that categoric argumentation isn't entirely civilized.

This hasn't just to do with who is right, and who is wrong in a particular case. It's bigger than that.

It's about, whenever there is a conflict, how should it be solved, and what consequences does particular acts have for future upcoming conflicts? Is it possible that we cure this conflict now - the easy way, at the cost of having something worse reappear in the future?

If the world leaders has "given up on diplomacy" I suggest they retire and hand things over to those that still have ideas.

Force may be of some limited use in an emergency. Any use of force expect for emergency will degrade our world. I don't like the modern trend of using rethorics to relabel ordinary military attacks to emergency defence in some kind of extended definition.

Our world is currently under severe moral degradation.

Those of you who say that the terrorists lack respect for human life, you are kindf of correct of course, but to at the same time defend israel without any reservations is something whose consistency is entirely dependent on that "you ARE entirely right, free of faults, and the enemey are completely wrong are and monsters".

This is IMO a very WEAK argument. Not good enough for me. If this is our best argument. I completely understand why we FAIL in our diplomacy.

/Fredrik
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3265
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Did it ever occur to anyone? that we actually breeded SOME of these terrorists ourselves? Or is it that we are completely free of responsibility?

We live on the same planet after all. What could WE have done 100 years ago, to STOP repress terrorism behaviour? Nothing?

Also, what can we do today, that will make this world better for our kids and their kids?

To me the answer is anything but war.

/Fredrik
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1193
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, what we could have done in the past is irrelevant now. What matters is the present and the future and Islamic radicals have repeatedly stated that their goal is a world ruled by hard-line Islam. They want all "infidels" dead, period. And FYI, in case you are unsure, if you aren't an Islamic hardliner you are an infidel in their minds.

Note for the "pussified PC pursuers" out there, I said the ISLAMIC RADICALS - i.e. extremists like the ones that flew planes into the WTC, not all Muslims. Stop before you put words in my mouth.
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 83
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 05:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

>Did it ever occur to anyone? that we actually breeded SOME of these terrorists ourselves? Or is it that we are completely free of responsibility?

So by your logic dear Freddie, every victim of rape should blame herself as it is all her fault for dressing like a slut or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Your comment is an insulting thing to say to the thousands of innocent people who have been murdered by Islamists worldwide. The west should take no blame for anyone who chooses mass murder to make a political point.

With your kind of thought process it is no wonder Winston Churchill referred to Sweden as "that small, coward country"
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1636
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I liked this article on Iraq:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13906475/site/newsweek/
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3266
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 07:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> So by your logic dear Freddie, every victim of rape should blame herself as it is all her fault for dressing like a slut or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Certainly not. That's not what I was saying. Nor was I saying the WE are soley responsible for the bad things in the world. All I'm saying is that until we acknowledge see that we are part of the equation after all, no matter how small, solving it is impossible. Some light element of self critisism is always needed. And sometimes, I see nothing of it from some parties.

Mike, I think you choose to focus on, and enlarge, the worst parts rather than focus on the possibilities - this is a classical mistake. Focusing on the wrong things doesn't offer any solutions. "Kill the infidels", doesn't seem too remote to what you suggest Mike. You seem to see no peaceful solution either than to kill the enemy either?

/Fredrik
 

Ron Siddall
Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 114
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 07:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, if someone is hell bent on killing you, what choice do you have? This isn't checkers, you just can't walk away. They won't let you. Israel has tried to turn the other cheek many, many times but the terrorist continue to bomb them. What are they supposed to do.

AND NO, I HAVE ABSOLUTELY NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE ACTIONS OF A TERRORIST.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3099
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 10:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ken, maybe Karl Rove has been given a secret direct commission so Bush can say that the military is going to determine when to pull out of Iraq. Bush got a direct commission so he could skip boot camp, why not Karl?

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Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1194
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2006 - 11:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes Fredrik, what Ron said. You can't just walk away from these terrorists.

Back in the 90's here in the US we were all living well riding the dot com boom. What was going on then while we were (basically) provoking no one? Terrorists snuck in to this country, took flying lessons, and plotted 9/11. So, if they based that attack on events past because there wasn't much for them to be pissed off about during the 90's, then what makes you think if we leave them alone now they won't do anything? They WILL attempt something, it's not a matter of if, but when. Bottom line, it's kill or be killed and I'm not interested in being killed right now. I also don't want my children living under militant Islamic rule, which again I remind you, is their stated goal for the world, not just the middle east.

I honestly don't think you fully grasp how evil these "people" are.
 

Ric Heinz
Intermediate Member
Username: Rheinz

Post Number: 396
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 12:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Did it ever occur to anyone? that we actually breeded SOME of these terrorists ourselves? Or is it that we are completely free of responsibility?"

Fredrik - I have worked in several places in the middle east through my career...Saudi, Egypt & Syria. Many, many times, I have seen "westerners" (Americans, English, Austrailians & Canadians) treat the indiginous natives (mostly muslems) like crap. So much so, it was embarrasing to me. These were people working for nothing (by our standards) and it is easy for me to understand why they hate us so much.
Ric
Flatfender Brewing, NW Houston
 

Tom Burk
Member
Username: Tomburk

Post Number: 113
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 01:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, the Jews will never again go willingly go to their execution. They know that they can be exterminated by the millions and cannot count on protection from others.
I think the difference in the sides is this, If the Islamist quit bombing and killing the Israelis the violence would stop, but if the Israelis quit protecting themselves they would be wiped from the earth.
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 84
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 02:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Very well put Tom. Let me add that you only hear hoots and hollers from the likes of Fredrik, Dan, and the rest of the "International Community" when Israel has the audacity to take action to defend themselves from Islamic aggression. This reveals the latent anti-semitism which for some curious reason has become synonymous with the current leftist liberal ideology.

They will deny it to the very end, just like Liberace, who said was really straight.


Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3102
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 03:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL!

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Ric Heinz
Intermediate Member
Username: Rheinz

Post Number: 397
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 03:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just curious... anyone familiar with the muslum tradition of cliteral mutilation in young girls?

Nice tradition, huh?
Ric
Flatfender Brewing, NW Houston
 

Ric Heinz
Intermediate Member
Username: Rheinz

Post Number: 398
Registered: 01-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 03:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh-oh, my 400 post must be beer related. Backing off here.
Ric
Flatfender Brewing, NW Houston
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 85
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 04:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The following is the text of Prime Minister Olmert's address to the Knesset today.

A National Moment of Truth
By Israeli PM Ehud Olmert Prime Minister of Israel

Madam Speaker,
Ladies and gentlemen,
Members of Knesset,

At the outset, I offer condolences, on my behalf and on behalf of the government, the Knesset and the entire nation, to the families of the victims - both civilian and IDF. I also send best wishes for recovery to the wounded, and a huge embrace for the families of those kidnapped and the boys themselves.

Over the past few weeks, our enemies have challenged the sovereignty of the State of Israel and the safety of its residents - first in the southern sector, then on the northern border, and deeper into the home front.

Israel did not seek these confrontations. On the contrary. We have done a lot to prevent them. We returned to the borders of the State of Israel, recognized by the entire international community. There were those who misconstrued our desire for peace - for us and our neighbors - as a sign of frailty. Our enemies misinterpreted our willingness to exercise restraint as a sign of weakness.

They were wrong!

Madam Speaker, Members of Knesset,

The State of Israel has no territorial conflict, neither on our southern border nor on our northern one.

In these two areas, we are sitting on the recognized international border - both vis-Ã -vis the Palestinian Authority in the Gaza Strip, and in Lebanon.

We have no intention of interfering in their internal affairs. On the contrary, stability and tranquility in Lebanon, free of the rule of foreign powers, and in the Palestinian Authority, are in Israel's interest.

We yearn for the day when peace will prevail between us, for the mutual benefit of our peoples from both sides of our common border.

The campaign we are engaged in these days is against the terror organizations operating from Lebanon and Gaza. These organizations are nothing but "sub-contractors" operating under the inspiration, permission, instigation and financing of the terror-sponsoring and peace-rejecting regimes, on the Axis of Evil which stretches from Tehran to Damascus.

Lebanon has suffered heavily in the past, when it allowed foreign powers to gamble on its fate.

Iran and Syria still continue to meddle, from afar, in the affairs of Lebanon and the Palestinian Authority, through Hizballah and the Hamas.

Even if last Wednesday's criminal attack against an IDF patrol was carried out without the consent of the Lebanese government and without the assistance of its military, this does not absolve it of full responsibility for the attack which emanated from its sovereign territory. Just as the fact that the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority opposes terrorism against Israel does not relieve him and the Palestinian Authority of their responsibility for the attack carried out from their territory against our soldiers in Kerem Shalom. They are both fully responsible for the safety of our soldiers who were taken hostage.

Radical, terrorist and violent elements are sabotaging the life of the entire region and placing its stability at risk. The region in which we live is threatened by these murderous terror groups.

It is a regional - as well as global - interest to take control and terminate their activity.

We can all see how the majority of the international community supports our battle against the terror organizations and our efforts to remove this threat of the Middle East.

We intend to do this. We will continue to operate in full force until we achieve this. On the Palestinian front, we will conduct a tireless battle until terror ceases, Gilad Shalit is returned home safely and the shooting of Qassam missiles stops.

And in Lebanon, we will insist on compliance with the terms stipulated long ago by the international community, as unequivocally expressed only yesterday in the resolution of the eight leading countries of the world:

* The return of the hostages, Ehud (Udi) Goldwasser and Eldad Regev;
* A complete cease fire;
* Deployment of the Lebanese army in all of southern Lebanon;
* Expulsion of Hizbullah from the area, and fulfillment of United Nations Resolution 1559.

We will not suspend our actions.

On both fronts we are exercising self-defense in the most basic and essential sense. In both cases, it is a matter whose importance and significance go far beyond the size of the military units involved.

We are at a national moment of truth. Will we consent to living under the threat of this Axis of Evil or will we mobilize our inner strength and show determination and equanimity?

Our answer is clear to every Israeli, and it echoes today throughout the entire region.

We will search every compound, target every terrorist who assists in attacking the citizens of Israel, and destroy every terrorist infrastructure, everywhere. We will persist until Hizbullah and Hamas comply with those basic and decent things required of them by every civilized person. Israel will not agree to live in the shadow of missiles or rockets against its residents.

Citizens of Israel,

There are moments in the life of a nation, when it is compelled to look directly into the face of reality and say: no more!

And I say to everyone: no more!

Israel will not be held hostage - not by terror gangs or by a terrorist authority or by any sovereign state.

In the life of a nation there are moments of transcendence, of purification, when political and sectarian disputes which separate us are replaced by a sense of mutual responsibility. I highly value and appreciate the way the Opposition has been conducting itself in the Knesset these days. The human competition and personal rivalries are dissolved and instead our feeling of mutual responsibility arises, our sense of partnership, and primarily, our eternal love for our people and our land.

This is such a moment!

All of us - Jews, Muslims, Christians, Druze and Circassians - now stand as one person, as one nation, subject together to the same hatred and malice, and fighting against it in consensus and partnership. When missiles are launched at our residents and cities, our answer will be war with all the strength, determination, valor, sacrifice and dedication which characterize this nation. There is nothing we want more than peace and good neighborly relations - in the east, north and south. We seek peace, we pursue peace and we yearn for peace. At the same time, there is nothing we reject more than an attempt to harm us and make us give up our right to live here, in our land, in security and peace.

On behalf of the people of Israel, on behalf of all the residents of the country, I came here today, Madam Speaker, to announce to the world: we seek neither war nor direct confrontation, but we will not be deterred from them when the need arises. Only a nation that can defend its freedom truly deserves it. We are entitled to our freedom, and when necessary, we know how to fight for it and defend it.

My fellow Members of Knesset,

The strength of the State of Israel relies on the strength and capability of the IDF. This strength is the main guarantee to preserving and defending our lives on this land. The best economic and human resources of Israeli society were invested in building this strength.

I want to extend from here my heartfelt gratitude - and that of the Government and the people of Israel - to the IDF soldiers and commanders, the security services, the Israel Police, the rescue forces, the firefighters and the other security forces.

I wish to read from the "Prayer for the welfare of soldiers in the Israel Defense Forces". Millions of Jews - in Israel and the world - pray for the safety and success of those who defend our nation, from the Lebanese border to the desert, and from the Great Sea unto the approach of the Arava, on the land, in the air and on the sea.

"May the Almighty cause the enemies who rise up against us to be struck down before them.

May the Holy One, blessed be He, preserve and rescue our fighters from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and may He send blessing and success in their every endeavor.

May He lead our enemies under our soldiers' sway and may He grant them salvation and crown them with victory".

The strength of a nation is measured not only by its military capabilities. The strength of a nation is measured by its welfare and morality, its strong and solid economy, its modern and developing market, its export of technologies and products for the most advanced world markets and its ground-breaking academic research. In all these, each and every one of us has good reason to be proud.

But above all, the strength of a nation is measured in times of trial, when the home front becomes the front, when the citizens of the country show admirable fortitude, patience and stamina and allow it to operate against its enemies.

I had the privilege of witnessing these inner strengths in the years when I was Mayor of Jerusalem. For years, our capital was subject to the most murderous terror attacks. The resilience, patience and restraint of the residents of Jerusalem and the entire citizens of Israel are exemplary.

I recall a conversation with Rudy Giuliani, who was Mayor of New York during the terror attacks of September 2001. I called to offer encouragement to him and the residents of New York following the collapse of the Twin Towers, and he replied: "Ehud, if the New Yorkers can withstand it like the Jerusalemites do, then we will defeat terrorism".

Madam Speaker,
Ladies and gentlemen Members of Knesset,
Citizens of Israel,

Even in these days, hundreds of thousands of Israelis stand at the front line of fire, like soldiers in the battlefield, fighting for our life and honor.

It is clear to us that the circumstances imposed upon the residents compel us to address their special needs, in all aspects. The government will lend immediate assistance, everywhere.

The government of Israel, under my leadership, derives strength from the stamina of the Israeli public. We are a brave and determined nation. I am proud today - perhaps more than ever before - to be an Israeli citizen.

Thanks to you, our enemies come up against a united nation, which fights together, shoulder to shoulder. We do not surrender and we do not panic. We believe in the justice of our cause, because there is no battle more just or moral than ours - a battle for the right to a peaceful and normal life, like any other human being, any other nation and any other state.

We fight for the right of children like Omer Pisachov, may his memory be blessed, a 7 year old from Nahariya, who wanted to visit his grandmother Yehudit Itzkovich, may her memory be blessed, and enjoy the Sabbath dinner she prepared;

We fight for the right of citizens like Shmuel Ben-Shimon, may his memory be blessed, a 41 year old from Yokne'am who left every morning for work in the railway garage in Haifa to support his wife Natalie and their small children;

We fight for the right of citizens like Monica Lerer, may her memory be blessed, a 50 year old from Nahariya, to drink coffee on the terrace in the country to which she immigrated from Argentina;

We fight for the right of girls like Ella Abukasis, may her memory be blessed, a 13 year old from Sderot, to play the flute and read books, as Ella enjoyed doing.

We fight for everything that everyone in the enlightened world takes for granted and never imagined that they would have to fight for - the right to a normal life.

It is a difficult battle! It may become even more difficult. It is a painful test, and we may have to bear more suffering. Such a battle is never easy. It is strewn with pain and suffering, sacrifice, and casualties.

But, we have no intention of giving up our desire to live a normal life. We will not apologize for this desire, and we do not need anyone's approval to defend ourselves.

Citizens of Israel,

This is a difficult time of trial for all of us.

The State of Israel has withstood much more complex trials - and triumphed.

We have always known how to mobilize our inner strength, equanimity, wisdom and patience, in order to overcome our enemies.

Finally, I wish to speak on a more personal note to the families of Shalit, Goldwasser and Regev, the families of the soldiers who are held hostage by the Hamas and Hizbullah.

You, and mainly your children - our children - are always on my mind.

Last Wednesday, only five days ago, at 10:00 am, Aviva and Noam Shalit sat in my office. They, and I, want Gilad home more than anything. While we were discussing the situation, I - and Aviva and Noam - received the painful news that Ehud (Udi) Goldwasser and Eldad Regev had been kidnapped.

On their departure, Noam and Aviva left a picture of Gilad, taken close to the date of his kidnapping.

Unfortunately, pictures of three boys now stand in my room. Many times during the day I look in their faces, into their eyes, and embrace them in my heart. I do not forget them for one minute. They were there on our behalf and for our sake. We will do everything and make every effort to bring them home. We will do this, but not in a pattern that will encourage more kidnappings.

There is almost no one who can understand the place you are in. Even when we do not talk directly, I feel and hear what you want to say to me, and I embrace you with love, understanding and agreement.

The place I am in compels me, ultimately, to make fateful decisions, for life, and sometimes even for death.

I have no strength other than that which you have bestowed upon me.

I have no courage other than that which God, my faith in the justice of our cause and my sense of supreme responsibility, have instilled in me and have prepared me for these fateful moments.

Madam Speaker,

I see before me the kidnapped boys, those standing in the front line and in the line of fire, those brave and determined ones who are fighting today and who could - God forbid - be the target of tomorrow's kidnapping.

We will defend all of them, on behalf of all of them we will fight, and with all of them before our eyes - the civilians in the line of fire, the kidnapped fighters and their families - we will continue, without hesitating, without capitulating and without fretting, until our goals are achieved.

I wish to conclude by reading an extract from Prophet Jeremiah:

"Thus said Hashem: a voice is heard on high, wailing, bitter weeping, Rachel weeps for her children; she refuses to be consoled for her children, for they are gone.

Thus said Hashem: restrain your voice from weeping and your eyes from tears; for there is reward for your accomplishment - the word of Hashem - and they will return from the enemy's land.

There is hope for your future - the word of Hashem;

And your children will return to their land".

We will triumph!
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3267
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 19, 2006 - 08:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well I guess the existence of multiple and contradictory ideas is a good and healthy thing in a general sense :-)

I never planned to dedicate my life to solving the world peace anyway, so I'll leave it at this. Even if I disagree with lots of the methods of problem solving, those who dedicate their life at this and at least try to do it in a good way has my sincere respect.

Also, for all those in the world who are treated unjust, and still restrain their revenge and unconstrained agression for the benefit of a better world, they are the real heros. More power to them.

/Fredrik
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 88
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 04:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

More evidence of the latent anti-semitism which for some curious reason has become synonymous with the current leftist liberal ideology.

7340,L-3278919,00.html,http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278919,00.html
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Bob Wall
Junior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 89
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

sorry, here is the link:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278919,00.html
Give a man a beer and he'll waste and hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1198
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 07:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik/all - please take the time to read this from Michael Yon before you blame others for being responsible for militant Islam.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/jihad.htm
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3268
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 20, 2006 - 09:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmm..

Militant extremists, and any fascist-like behaviour, is definitely a major part of the problem, I don't think anyone ever suggested otherwise.

The question is howto resolve it in the best way.

And I do not like the idea of focusing on islam. And islamic fascist, is not better or no worse than any other fascist. It's not just a matter of beeing right or wrong, it's fascism itself that sucks.

But the militant islamists are not sent to this planet from space. They are born/created here, so something is wrong with the system on our planet, and we need to fix it. I think we agree so far, right?

Mike, am I understanding you right if you suggest that we basically need to track down and kill every single potential "militant extremist" worldwide, and moreover, since we can not take the chance of letting someone potentially militant to escape, we probably need to kill quite alot of civilians as well.

What do you have to say to the civilians in Lebanon? Are you suggesting that the entire population of Lebanon are to classify as militant islamists?

So, lets just assume we hunt around the planet and are able to kill every single so called extremist. Perhaps we kill a few million civilans too, or civilians that "looked like extremists" too. But hey, we need to be "brave", right?

Do you think there will be no side effects on that? Is there no chance at all that the extremists children will start new threads of extremists? Or perhaps we should also kill the extremists kids? Also, any chance the other people on earth has any objections to this killing? Perhaps you think those who object are also terrorist supporters, so you might need to kill them too, until there is only the tough and brave ones left.

My objection isn't that hunting down and killing most extremists by force, at the cost of alot of civilians can't be done - I'm sure it can be done. I just think it would be a HORRIBLE solution. And chances are that things would be way worse. It's a dangerous game that will with certainty raise the stakes, and increase the spiral of violence.

That is not the world I want. I see this danger now, and I choose not to support it, because I don't want the world to get to that point.

/Fredrik

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