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Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 5914
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'll move this discussion to where it more properly belongs. In the Brews & Views section the subject of moose hunting came up and I said I'm not sure I could shoot a creature that large unless it was in self-defense. Others said moose was very tasty and they had no reservations about killing one should they be that fortunate.

Again I'm not anti-hunting per se and I have little sympathy with PETA. As a teenager I shot my share of rabbits and squirrels and birds that preyed on our garden and fruit trees. I once shot at a deer but I was inexperienced and farther away than I should have been. Today I no longer hunt; I suppose I have other pursuits that interest me more.

I'm wondering how many others have no reservations about hunting for large game. I'm excepting self-defense and endangered species and feeding one's starving family. Would you shoot a buffalo or bear or elephant, for example, if it were legal and you had the opportunity?
 

THM
New Member
Username: Thm

Post Number: 25
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For me the morality of huntin' lies not in the size of the animal, but in it's reproductive technique.

Animals that have few young, and give their young years of care and trainin' shouldn't be hunted. The bears and elephants you mentioned come under this headin'.

Animals such as squirrel, birds, deer, and even the moose mentioned, have LOTS of young and give their young little to no care. I feel animals with this reproductive technique are fair game for huntin'.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3368
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> Would you shoot a buffalo or bear or elephant, for example, if it were legal and you had the opportunity?

No, I wouldn't. I think along Bill's logic.

I like fishing, but rarely get around it these days for various reasons. What I like about it is the excitement and contemplation following it (when you get no fish:-). But most of the time I catch the fish and release it (unless it's seriously damaged), because I never liked killing them, unless I plan to eat it.

I don't know what is wrong with me but I can't help feeling at least a little bit compassion for all life forms, even yeasts.

I remember when I was a kid (with immature brain) and was fishing down by a river. I caught fish after fish, and killed them as they were caught, and bascially piled them up beside me. I didn't know why I kiled them - I sure wasn't going to eat them, nor feed any cats.

I basically had this pile of fish (Carp bream in english?) and and old man come up to me, watching me fish and he asked me what I was going to do with all that fish, and I said "nothing". I guess I expected to hear that he was impressed how much fish I caught, but instead he got very upset and have me a lecture why it was wrong to kill all that fish for nothing.

That was a long time ago, and I was just a kid but I remember than I realized that I thought the old man was right.

/Fredrik
 

dhacker
Intermediate Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 415
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 06:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Like you Bill, when I was young, I too did a fair amount of hunting for small game. (rabbits, squirrels, dove, quayle, etc.) As I got older, I lost interest in it and now find myself with an Irwinian mind set.(Steve that is) All creatures on this earth have an intrinsic beauty that seems shameful to destroy. I realize sometimes it's necessary to thin the populations for the long term good of the species, I just don't want to be the one who has to do it. If my family was starving, I'd have no qualms. And even if they weren't, I'd eat what I shot. Therefore, those who choose to hunt big game legally with intent to consume, I have absolutely no issues with those folks.

What bugs me here in TN is opening day of deer season when the countryside declares war on Bambi and his family. Most of the deer I suppose are processed, but occasionally you'll find a whole deer carcass on the side of the road, save the huge missing portion of the head were antlers have been hacked off and will decorate some redneck's wall. Then of course is the "Parade of Carcasses" when the boys throw their kill on the hood of their trucks and drive around conspicuously hoping someone is impressed by the marksmanship it takes to blow a deer off its feet with a 30-06 and a 40x laser guided, heat seeking scope.

WHAT FUN!!!
WHAT SPORT!!!
 

Mike Reynolds
Junior Member
Username: Biernewbie

Post Number: 36
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I just refer to Leviticus 11 in the good book of ethics (the Bible) for what is fair game for the dinner table. Now I'm not a bible banger but I do believe that we were put on the top of the food chain by design not chance.

BTW someone has to kill the cow that makes the hamburger and steaks and these are rather large animals (around a ton) and very similar to a moose (split hoof, chews a cud).

I am a do-it-yourselfer like many of you and butcher my own deer so I know little goes to waste. I do have a problem with any hunter that would take a deer just for the rack, that's just wrong IMO.
 

Tom Burk
Member
Username: Tomburk

Post Number: 123
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, September 09, 2006 - 06:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My family and I hunt and we process and eat what we kill. I don't think I should eat meat if I'm not willing to be responsible for part of it myself. I probably would shoot a moose or buffalo if it was going to be eaten. Even though I have freinds that have hunted Africa and brought back trophies, I would not do that. The meat from their game was owned by the local tribes that supplied the guides.
I most cases I think it is too easy for people that don't hunt, but eat meat, to look down upon people that hunt or kill and process the meat that others eat.
 

Joakim Ruud
Intermediate Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 371
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, September 10, 2006 - 03:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've been deer hunting a couple of times with my uncle, and found that it changed the way I look at meat. Before, I hardly acknowledged the fact that the meat I buy at the supermarket was once part of a living animal with soft fur and big, black eyes. Then seeing my uncle sticking his knife in a not-quite-dead deer's neck to finish it while looking it in the eyes...that was an eye opener to me, and it changed the way I view meat that I buy in the supermarket.

My view is that hunting animals that you will then eat, so that it does not go to waste, is a noble endeavor. It's a continuation of what goes on all the time in nature. And in fact, it's healthy to have experienced that at least once, so you're no longer oblivious to what pre-packaged meat actually is.

But hunting just for a trophy to stick on your wall, is despicable. Megadeth had a really great song about that once, Countdown to Extinction :-)
 

Tim C.
Junior Member
Username: Timc

Post Number: 97
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 01:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you want to be the most efficient, the modern slaughter house is perfection. Almost 100% of the animal is used. I hunt white tailed deer (archery) and consider it a challenge. Of all the large game, I consider white tails as the most cagy and difficult. Especially if you are after the trophy bucks. Yes a doe or fauwn is easy. However a 4 year old buck is pretty difficult to stick. For me though, I savor the solitude and experience of being in my tree stand for hours and having nothing to occupy my mind other than my own thoughts and the occasional coyote eating an apple.
 

Ned Buntline
Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 244
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 03:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've taken more than a few deer in my time - and I've also taken two bear. All of them ended up on our plate in some form or another, and part of the bear ended up on my floor and wall.

We weren't starving, but to us, it wasn't any different than slaughtering a pig or cow. We raised chickens for food, and rabbits too. We still went out and hunted snowshoes, and turkey for Thanksgiving.

I guess it depends how you were raised. Where I'm from, hunting is part of the culture, and has been since the earliest settlers. My family was one of the first permanent settlers of northern Michigan, so it's a bit in our blood.

I don't hunt anymore, though I have many friends who invite me back home every year for deer season. The reason I don't hunt isn't due to any change in my ways so much as it's just not as convenient as it used to be.
 

Ned Buntline
Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 245
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 03:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

dhacker wrote:

"...impressed by the marksmanship it takes to blow a deer off its feet with a 30-06 and a 40x laser guided, heat seeking scope."

I do have a 30-06, but my favorite deer rifle is a 100 year-old lever-action Winchester. My second favorite hunting gun is a Brown Bess flintlock. It shoots a .71 caliber ball and drifts heavily to the left. Sometimes it doesn't go off at all, and the pan fizzes with a flash in your face. I've had many a time when, after a misfire, the deer looked right at me and I could swear he stuck his tongue out and laughed before he hopped away.
 

Joakim Ruud
Intermediate Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 374
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 09:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've had bear once, it was very tasty! They are a protected species here, though, so it was imported. From Alaska, I believe.
 

dhacker
Intermediate Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 416
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I applaud you Ned!

I always thought the hunted should have some advantage and that is why I only used a single shot 20 gauge shotgun when I used to go hunting. If I missed, they lived another day.

Now when it came to clay pigeons . . .

NO MERCY!!
 

Ned Buntline
Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 246
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 12:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joakim, they should be protected. Your brown bear population is down from a high of 4000 in 1850 to only 35-55 today. The same is true for all of your big carnivores, the wolverine, wolf, and lynx.

I did see a wolverine in Norway once, while mountain climbing in the Troms portion of your country. I was told that the wolverine didn't get that far north, but I know what they look like, having a small population of them in northern Michigan.

Norway is one of the truly beautiful places on this planet. I hope your wildlife population returns.
 

Ned Buntline
Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 247
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 01:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This has been out for years, but if you haven't heard it, take a listen. It's hilarious. It's a 911 call.

http://www.tailspin.com/Movies/bambulance.mov
 

THM
Junior Member
Username: Thm

Post Number: 26
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We have restricted blackpowder hunts here where I live. No inline ignition, no sabots or buffalo bullets, no BP pellets, no modern sights. I have a .50 cal hawkins rifle I use for these hunts. It's accurate to 250 metres easily, and so beautiful. I used to use a Zuave musket, but it didn't reach out accurately beyond a hundred metres. Here in the west most huntin' is done at longer ranges.

Here is a pic of me and my Hawkins Rifle at the range gettin' sighted in:
 

Joakim Ruud
Intermediate Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 375
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ned, I hope so too, but am not optimistic. The sheep farming lobby are tirelessly working to eradicate every last wolf, bear, lynx and wolverine from our country. It's really sad.
 

Ned Buntline
Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 248
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Those damn sheep roam your country like rabbits. I remember hiking up west of Bodo and having a pack of them follow me around all day. The stupid bells around their necks drove me nuts.
 

dhacker
Intermediate Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 417
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

THM

That reminds me of Tom Selleck in Quigley Down Under . . .

. . . 'cept I assume you ain't sightin' in
Aborigines!!

fixed sp

(Message edited by dhacker on September 11, 2006)
 

Joakim Ruud
Intermediate Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 376
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 03:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You're welcome to come and hunt some sheep farmers if you like. ...bunch of moonshine-swilling yahoos...
 

Belly Buster Bob
Senior Member
Username: Canman

Post Number: 2603
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 05:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

since us humans have inhabited most of the natural habitat, a hunting season is very necessary to control animal populations. Unchecked, they will in a very short period of time actually decrease in population after a very short term mass increase. The ban on wolf hunt in Western canada proved this fact. Since a control hunt was reintroduced, the populations have increased instead of decreased. Conservation thru herd manipulation...if I can help by putting some moose steaks in the freezer, I'm all in
Bellybuster Bob
www.bellybuster.netfirms.com
 

Ned Buntline
Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 249
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 05:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Getting back to Bill's point: You listed a couple of animals in particular.

Bear hunting in North America is legal in most locals, though severe restrictions exist. In Michigan for example, one used to have to win a lottery to get a license. This was when the bear population had dipped a bit. I'm not sure what the current license method is, but the bear population has came back pretty strong in recent years.

Most buffalo in the U.S. are now semi-domesticated. There are a few wild herds in the northwest, but there are many farms that devote themselves to raising buffalo for meat. The buffalo preservation program is fortunately one of the most successful efforts of the governement to save a species. In the year 1800, it was estimated that there were 30,000,000 buffalo in North America. By 1870, the population had fallen by 10 million to 20,000,000. In 1889, after the majority of western expansion had taken place, it was estimated that the buffalo population had declined to 1000. Since that time, through conservation and domestication, the population has increased to 25,000 in 1954, and 200,000 in 1994. As it exists right now, there is no need to hunt buffalo, as buffalo meat is readily available in most supermarkets.

Elephants are severely endangered throughout the world. The value placed on ivory, along with the natural destructive nature of the beast, has made it a big target for hunters and farmers alike. It is very likely that in our childrens' lifetime, they will see the extinction of the elephant. It makes no sense to hunt them because of this.

I guess my point is this: You will find with most hunters (American and Canadian in particular), an intense desire to maintain and conserve our wildlife. Moreso than many of the so-called environmentalist movements. Hunters license fees generally go to wildlife management programs. Hunting helps keep certain herds in check in the absence of natural predators (which are typically even more endangered than the species that are hunted). It is very rare as well, to encounter a hunter that hunts for the pure "fun" of it. Anyone who kills an animal for a mere trophy is considered a pariah among true sportsmen. Eat what you take is an unwritten code.
 

Okierat
Member
Username: Okierat

Post Number: 116
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 07:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Living in Oklahoma, I have spent many hours hunting quail, duck, dove, rabbit, and on occasion deer. I have fallen into the "now that I am older" group and don't really hunt all that much. The last time I went out hunting was about 6 years ago, in the panhandle of OK hunting pheasant. Beautiful bird, and quite tasty too. I am also one of those that donít like the idea of hunting for sport, but if I get a chance to shoot those damn pigeons that crap on my front porch, well now, that is a different story.

 

Ned Buntline
Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 250
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 08:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okierat, talk to Listermann. They might be his birds.
 

Mike Reynolds
Junior Member
Username: Biernewbie

Post Number: 37
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, September 11, 2006 - 11:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yep, I suspect crapped out racing pigeons.
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 580
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Wednesday, September 20, 2006 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I hate the phrase "trophy animal". All animals taken cleanly and ethically are worthy of the utmost respect.

I hunt because I want to participate in the ecosystem in a meaningful way, not merely observe it in a super-protected preserved state. Some act as if we humans are some alien species that invaded earth merely to despoil it, rather than a species that grew up with the earth and its environs. Problem is, there is just too many of us.

A second and equally important reason- I hunt so that I might eat food that I have gained by my own effort and skill. Its the exact same reason that I put in a vegetable garden every year.

We butcher our own, brew our own and grow our own.

It is hugely satisfying to sit down to a full meal that includes meat and or fish shot or caught by us, vegetables grwon by us, and beer and wine made by us.

Besides that, venison is mighty tastey when cared for properly, and is damn good for the heart (both in eating, and pursuing and in every sense of the word).

Misty-eyed sentimentallity *off*.

Tim
 

Mike Reynolds
Junior Member
Username: Biernewbie

Post Number: 39
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, September 21, 2006 - 03:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Right-on Tim!
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 4391
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 24, 2006 - 11:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am afraid I have some bad news for you, Bill...
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 3554
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 25, 2006 - 01:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

THM, my brother has a Hawkin like yours except that it is a flintlock. We used to shoot it a lot. He shoots it left handed. That is crazy IMHO. I used to pour bullets and roll cartridges for it. It was a lot of fun. Really need to get my two sons out with it someday.

Dan

(Message edited by listermann on October 25, 2006)

--This space is STILL being left intentionally blank.-


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