Topics Topics Help/Instructions Help Edit Profile Profile Member List Register  
Search Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Visit The Brewery's sponsor!
Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * World Expressions * The Kerry Kerfuffle < Previous Next >

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  Start New Thread        

Author Message
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 420
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First, a little background in case you live in a cave:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8019038242375419738&q=John+Kerry+stuck+i n+iraq&hl=en

http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=2619383&page=1

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/10/31/204-10312006.html

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/10204420/detail.html

And if you don't have time to read all the articles, here is what John Kerry said to some college students:

"You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. And if you don't, you get stuck in Iraq,"

Now. Before I pile on. John Kerry could have easily set the record straight by apologizing to our troops for mis-speaking (assuming if he really did mis-speak) All he had to do was apologize for a poor choice of words and explain what he really meant. But no. Here was his knee-jerk response to criticism:

"I apologize to no one for my criticism of the president and of his broken policy."


The way I see it, Kerry just handed some of the closer mid-term races back to the Republicans. He insulted every man and woman who wears a uniform. He may not think that he insulted them, but he did, and this is not spin. His own arrogance will not allow him to apologize.

John Kerry. "The October Surprise".
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1315
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 04:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I still laugh when I think how po'ed the Dems are because W is still in office, when they best they could offer in '04 was that stiff. Maybe if they put up someone who had a clue they might have the presidency right now. But no, this is the same party that wanted Dean first until he snapped, so they defaulted to Kerry. Either choice was just brilliant.
 

No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 16
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 07:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I gotta admit, that wasn't the best thing for Kerry to say before an election. Dumb, dumb, dumb. Good thing he isn't running this year or he'd lose some votes.

Oh, and as far as political parties making brilliant choices - we've been stuck with a real piece of work for the last 5 1/2 years.

As far as October surprises go, this one carries more weight:

After Pat’s Birthday
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/
Posted on Oct 19, 2006
By Kevin Tillman

Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.

It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we got out.

Much has happened since we handed over our voice:

Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.

Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.

Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.

Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.

Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.

Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.

Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.

Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.

Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.

Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.

Somehow torture is tolerated.

Somehow lying is tolerated.

Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.

Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.

Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.

Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.

Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.

Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.

Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.

Somehow this is tolerated.

Somehow nobody is accountable for this.

In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.

Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.

Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,

Kevin Tillman
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 421
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 06:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 181
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is absolutely nothing but spin by the GOP.

The Massachusetts senator apologized Wednesday morning during an appearance on Don Imus' nationally syndicated radio program. Kerry said, "Of course I'm sorry about a botched joke. You think I love botched jokes?"

Kerry was supposed to say, "I can't overstress the importance of a great education. Do you know where you end up if you don't study, if you aren't smart, if you're intellectually lazy? You end up getting us stuck in a war in Iraq."

If this actually changes the outcome of our elections then we really live in a sorry state of democracy.
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 422
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 09:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

GOP spin???? Talk about intellectual laziness!

Has Kerry apologized to the troops he offended?

No.

Will he?

No.

John Kerry has made a career of denigrating the soldiers of the united States Armed Forces. This is just another in the long list of shameful and insulting things Mr. Kerry has said of our men in uniform.

"The nation that separates its scholars from its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools."
--Thucydides
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1323
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 09:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, you are being completely dishonest with yourself here. The reaction to Kerry's gaffe is just GOP spin? What do you think would have happened if W said something similar? The media would have jumped his $%&* so fast it wouldn't have been funny.

The double standard in this country on politically correct "offendedness" is unbelievable. In another thread I discussed one of the local congressional races. The Democrat was late to an appointment last week and apologized for being late by saying he was "on Injun time". Well, convenient for him the local Oneida tribe supports him because around here the Dems cater to them (tax free business, that type of stuff), so they laughed it off. Could you imagine the media frenzy around how offended they were if the Republican candidate said that? I sure can.
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 182
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It was obvious Kerry fumbled his words and had to look at his notes to continue. His botched joke (above) was a bad attempt to jab Bush, which he apologized for (above).

It really is as simple as that, but will anyone let it go?

No, it will be spun and blown into the biggest issue of this election.
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 183
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, I'm not saying the Democrats wouldn't have done something similar had the case been reversed, see George Allen's "Macaca".

The political system has come down to this and it's just sad.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1324
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 09:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, on this we totally agree. Modern politics is quite sad.

I think Kerry is a goon and a stooge but I can't believe he was stupid enough to actually mean to say something that idiotic. I'm willing to give him that much benefit of the doubt.
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 184
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob Wall Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 09:08 pm:
>Has Kerry apologized to the troops he offended?
>Will he?


Statement of Senator John Kerry

As a combat veteran, I want to make it clear to anyone in uniform and to their loved ones: my poorly stated joke at a rally was not about, and never intended to refer to any troop.

I sincerely regret that my words were misinterpreted to wrongly imply anything negative about those in uniform, and I personally apologize to any service member, family member, or American who was offended.

It is clear the Republican Party would rather talk about anything but their failed security policy. I don’t want my verbal slip to be a diversion from the real issues. I will continue to fight for a change of course to provide real security for our country, and a winning strategy for our troops.
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 424
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I was quite prepared to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt until I read his reaction.

"I apologize to no one for my criticism of the president and of his broken policy."

Kerry chose to ignore the fact that he may have offended our men and women in uniform and went on to lash out at his political enemies. This shows a complete lack of character. It makes me wonder if it was really a botched joke, or if it is his true feelings?

But what do I know. I am just an under-educated Army veteran. I guess I just got lucky to not get stuck in Iraq with all the other morons.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 425
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike A.,

Too little, too late.

This should have been the first thing he said. And to follow up the statement with a dig at the Republican Party exposes the apology as disingenuous.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1325
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

More proof that Kerry is an idiot that just shouldn't speak. From Imus earlier today:

Sen. John Kerry: "Well, I did. I said very clearly, I’ve said--obviously I am happy that they have an opportunity to be able to take something and exploit it, obviously not. I am sorry that that's happened. But, I’m not, but I’m not going to stand back from the reality here which is, they're trying to change the subject, it's their campaign of smear and fear they're going at--and incidentally when you say that I've done something in the past, I’ve told the truth in the past, I’ve never done anything except tell the truth. And I’m not going to take anybodies comment to suggest that somehow my telling the truth was a mistake. The American people rely on the truth and when I came back from South East Asia I told the truth. And I’m proud that I stood up and told the truth then and I’ve told the truth about Iraq, every single step of the way. These guys have failed America. The people who owe an apology are people like Donald Rumsfeld who didn't send enough troops, who didn't listen to the generals, who has made every mistake in the book. You read 'State of Denial' today, and you cringe. You absolutely cringe at the level to which these guys have been irresponsible. And what they're doing right now, frankly the media--the media needs to stand up to them too. They shouldn't be allowed to do that. This is swift boat stuff all over again. Somebody says something and they get excited and they love and have fun because oh boy, isn't this good, you've got a controversy. But look behind the controversy, the controversy is based on a lie."

Imus: "What do you think--I understand about the Bush folks but Senator John McCain, he seems to think--he seems to agree with the Bush Administration about your comments and he--You know him obviously better than I do but I know him pretty well, and he probably knows what you meant too."

Sen. John Kerry: "I'm sorry that John McCain has said what he said. John McCain's been a friend for a long time, but I have to tell you I think John McCain is wrong about this. John McCain has been a cheerleader for a policy that is incorrect. John McCain says we ought to send another hundred thousand troops over there. First of all we don't have another hundred-thousand troops, secondly, if you send them over there it’s going to do exactly what's already happened which is attract more terrorists and more Jihadists. Our own generals are telling us, that it’s the numbers of troops that are the problem and the fact is that that's what's adding to the number of terrorists in the world.


Within 5 minutes he said we don't have enough troops in Iraq and then he said we already have too many troops in Iraq? And he gets pissed for being called a flip-flopper? Does he EVER listen to what HE says?
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 185
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think you're going to change your mind Bob, but I hope it's clear to most people what happened here.

"If anyone thinks that a veteran, someone like me, who’s been fighting my entire career to provide for veterans, to fight for their benefits, to help honor what their service is, if anybody thinks that a veteran would somehow criticize more than 140,000 troops serving in Iraq and not the president and his people who put them there, they’re crazy."

"This is a classic GOP textbook Republican campaign tactic."
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 426
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 01, 2006 - 10:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"They told the stories at times they had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, tape wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the country side of South Vietnam in addition to the normal ravage of war, and the normal and very particular ravaging which is done by the applied bombing power of this country."

"And there is no reason, Bob, that young American soldiers need to be going into the homes of Iraqis in the dead of night, terrorizing kids and children, you know, women, breaking sort of the customs of the – of – the historical customs, religious customs,"

So this is how Kerry honors veterans? By calling them terrorists and comparing them to Genghis Khan? He is a real class act.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1770
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 02:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you bought into the GOP's insulting spin they put on Kerry's comment and the reaction of the buffoons in the video "media" who love nothing more than to make a stink, well then you ain't too bright. Personally, my intelligence is insulted by this reaction.

You know full well what Kerry meant, and that he simply botched the words to what was intended to be a jab at the Bush administration's Iraq policy. Come on, people. What a sad state of affairs.
 

No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 02:21 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

God knows little bush never screws up his words. I wonder how faux news would spin these:

"Families is where our nation finds hope, where wings take dream."

"I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."

"I hear there's rumors on the Internets that we're going to have a draft."

"I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully."

"You work three jobs? … Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that."

"Too many good docs are getting out of the business. Too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women all across this country."

"They misunderestimated me."

"Rarely is the questioned asked: Is our children learning?"

"Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we."

"There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 618
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 03:22 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Somebody mentioned Pat Tillman in another thread. He was the first one I thought of when I heard Kerry's "joke".

"We're here to talk about education, but I want to say something before- You know education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. And if you don't, you get stuck in Iraq,"

Kerry's statement is infuriating because of its premise that pursuing an individual goal (an education) is superior to sacrificing one's own self-interest to SERVE in harm's way.

AS IF it were not a DELIBERATE decision on the part of the individual serving to put aside their own self-interest for the good of others.

That's why it reminded me of Tillman.

Let me say this about Kerry in terms that may be understood. "LITTLE BUSH", the moron, trounced Kerry in 2004. Meaning...

Either a plurarity of the American people believe in "dubya", or they despised Kerry so much that they would vote for an obvious imbicile.

Tim
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 427
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 03:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"If you bought into the GOP's insulting spin...Personally, my intelligence is insulted by this reaction."

Stating his comment verbatim is not spin.

"You know full well what Kerry meant"

No, I don't. I have no idea what he meant, but I do know what he said. Quite frankly, Kerry's words and actions over the last 30 years do more to support the idea that he meant what he said than to make one believe he "botched a joke". Watch the clip again. Kerry wasn't laughing when he said it, and the audience wasn't laughing either.

I think this was more of a Freudian slip than a botched joke.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 18
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 07:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"LITTLE BUSH, the moron, trounced Kerry in 2004"

Um, little bush got 50.7% of the vote in 2004. I'm not sure what definition you'd use for "trounced", but I'd call that a "squeaker". I don't have a problem with the term "moron", however.

I'm so glad the conversation has turned to perceived insults rather than the fact that 105 US military personnel lost their lives in Iraq in October bringing the total to 2,819. At least we have our priorities straight.

Brave soldiers, foolish leaders.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1327
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 01:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do have a hard time believing Kerry supports our troops. He stabbed them in the back calling them murderers and rapists back then, why should he be any different now?
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 619
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why should Kerry apologize if all that went wrong is misconstrued words and GOP hate-mongering?

The American people are fair minded. Surely they would support a decision to refuse to apologize for something that was so obviously a funny joke. The American people would, I am sure, admire him for sticking to principles and standing up to such dispciable tactics.

Tim
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 186
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, that's it. I'm not voting for Kerry on Tuesday.

Bob, get real here, no one just quoted his statement and ended it there. They distorted the meaning for the sole purpose of attacking him and the democrats. It was simply a bad joke on Bush that he fumbled over, the audience did laugh.

If this had happened any other time then the run up to an important midterm election, it probably would have been ignored. I got to hand it to the GOP campaign strategists though, they know what they're doing and it may very well work, some people don't question what they hear in the media and will actually believe this spin.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1330
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 04:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This is the way I look at Kerry's errors in speech and judgment:

W is supposed to cater to unintelligent ignorant moronic rubes, because according to the libs that's what all conservatives are, just look at how the bogus IQ ratings story of how the states voted in the 2004 election took off. So, we like him when he uses the wrong words, makes up words, and generally sounds unintelligent because it makes him seem like one of us, at least according to libs.

But, Kerry is a Democrat, so he's supposed to cater to the intelligent, sophisticated, arrogant, and condescending a-holes in our society, so I would expect more intelligent speech from him. Unfortunately for him since he started campaigning back in about 2002 through this week he hasn't even been able to sound more intelligent than W.
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 187
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 04:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tim, your forgetting about the American people who refuse to admit "such despicable tactics" are actually taking place, this is just politics as normal. An apology was the only way to try and stop the attacks and GOP hate-mongering. Just his explanation would have been good enough for the American people had it not been exploited by campaign spin strategy and the media.
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 620
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kerry has been consistent though...

"I am convinced a volunteer army would be an army of the poor and the black and the brown. We must not repeat the travesty of the inequities present during Vietnam. I also fear having a professional army that views the perpetuation of war crimes as simply 'doing its job.' Equally as important, a volunteer army with our present constitutional crisis takes accountability away from the president and put the people further from control over military activities."
-John F. Kerry 1972

Why would a volunteer army be composed of only poor and minorities? Because they can't afford the SUPERIOR option of getting a college education, and that given a fair opportunity, they would choose that route?

THIS is what is so maddening about Kerry and his apologists. The attitude that those who choose to serve in the military are there because they actually had no choice: Instead of making a deliberate choice to sacrifice their own self-interest for the good of others.

Yeah, sure, this is all hate-filled spin for political gain. The American people are being duped again into thinking they should be offended.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1771
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 07:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some of the media goobs were spouting off about how maybe people WON'T vote the democrats into office, what with the Kerry remark. Does the media really think we're that simple minded?
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 623
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 07:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah... the media does think we are simple-minded.

Who the hell knows what the American people will decide?

Tim
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1334
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 07:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ken, the ONLY thing I see this doing is getting out the vote for Republicans with families or friends in the military. The ones who maybe weren't going to bother voting initially. It surely isn't going to change anyone's mind about anyone.

And yes, the media does indeed think we, as regular citizens, are plain stupid.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5984
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have to laugh when people depict the media as a single, big, monolithic entity....I just don't believe it. Maybe I'm naive, or maybe you're projecting....
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1772
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 08:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, when three small whales get stranded in a hole in the Arctic ice, and every media outlet carries daily updates on their plight, yeah I think it's one big like-minded entity!
The media folk watch and know what all their competitors are doing, and they all jump on the bandwagon. From Jon Benet to John Kerry, they've all got it covered.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1335
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 08:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, when *I* say media, I am referring to the mainstream media. CNN, MSNBC, FOXNEWS, and the national broadcast news on the networks.

You don't think they all believe the typical American is an idiot? They sure act like they do.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5985
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 08:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think they universally act like ANYTHING....that have their own interests that I take into account when I watch them. Now, I'm not saying that maybe, at times, there isn't an aspect of what you say, but I just don't see a universal point of view to them....
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1773
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm trying to figure an analogy between Bud Miller Coors and the mainstream media but I can't figure out how to put it. I know it's there.
 

HEU Brewer
Member
Username: Heu_brewer

Post Number: 223
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 02, 2006 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

All of them are watered down and have no substance.

Trying to watch network and local network news in Chicago is worthless

Network news really has no news at all or they try to make up news (Example NBC indepth profile). Local network news is often an advertisment for network programing.
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 188
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In terms of corporate ownership there is a beer and media monopoly.

Number of corporations that control a majority of the beer market in the US: 3
Anheuser Busch
Miller Brewing
Coors

Number of corporations that control a majority of US media (newspapers, magazines, tv and radio stations, books, music, movies, videos, wire service and photo agencies): 5
Time Warner
Disney
Murdoch's News Corporation
Bertelsmann of Germany
Viacom (formerly CBS)
 

Steve Sampson
Intermediate Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 272
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 04:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"THIS is what is so maddening about Kerry and his apologists. The attitude that those who choose to serve in the military are there because they actually had no choice: Instead of making a deliberate choice to sacrifice their own self-interest for the good of others."

I would say that for every Pat Tillman, who left a great job in the NFL to become a soldier there are many more who join because they don't have many other options.

Why do you think there are military recruiters? I porsonally have been called by the Army and Navy when I was younger trying to get me to join, why do you think that is? People aren't exactly waiting in line to join the armed forces, sure some make a conscious decision to, and thats very honorable, but the fact is that many people join because they aren't good students, and can make a living off of it.

And about the "sacrificing self interest thing" don't be delusional! many join because it pays well, you get to travel while in the forces, they pay for college when you get out, etc... I'd bet a large amount of money that a good number of soldiers would not have joined voluntarily had they known they would be going to that cluster going on over there.

And this is definately NOT to disrespect any soldiers out there.
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 624
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 06:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Believe it or not, the proportion of "the ecconomically privelaged" in the ranks of the military increased after 9/11, when it was certainly undeniable that combat and hardship were likely to be your fate in the military from that point forward.

The data on military service demographics is a matter of public record.

Here is one summary:

http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/upload/95512_1.pdf

An excerpt from page 2 of the executive summary:

The household income of recruits generally matches the income distribution of the American population. There are slightly higher proportions of recruits from the middle class and slightly lower proportions from low-income brackets. However, the proportion of high-income recruits rose to a disproportionately high level after the war on terrorism began, as did the proportion of highly educated enlistees.

Check out the table on page 3 for specific numbers.

You also mention education, as did Kerry. The proportion of soldiers with a higher level of education also increased post-9/11.

Soldiers as victim, mainly due to economic circumstances, is a view likely held by a fan of Michael Moore, rather than an observer of the record.

Pardon me for saying so, Steve, but your comments reflect your ignorance, and that IS disrespectful to our soldiers.

Tim
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5986
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 07:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Soldiers as victim, mainly due to economic circumstances, is a view likely held by a fan of Michael Moore, rather than an observer of the record. "...comments like this make it very hard to take you seriously....
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Steve Sampson
Intermediate Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 273
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 07:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Exactly...

Tim I'm not saying Shiite about economic defferences, and recruitment. Just stating the the fact that the military recruits tells me that the job is not in high demand. Ever been called out of nowhere for a job? Usually doesn't happen that way.

Wouldn't you agree?

I'll comment on the paper later, after I have a chance to read it.
 

Tim Wi
Advanced Member
Username: Riverkeeper

Post Number: 625
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 08:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I accept your criticism, Denny. Yes, giving vent to feelings detracts from my point. However, it is not necessary that you take ME seriously.

The facts of the make-up of the armed forces are there for all to see.

Not just at the Heritage Foundation.

You may see a primary source here: http://www.dod.mil/prhome/poprep2004/download/download.html

and begging your pardon Steve, but how are we to reconcile your statements

"I would say that for every Pat Tillman, who left a great job in the NFL to become a soldier there are many more who join because they don't have many other options."

and

"many join because it pays well, you get to travel while in the forces, they pay for college when you get out, etc...

with

"I'm not saying Shiite about economic defferences, and recruitment. "

?

Tim
 

Ned Buntline
Intermediate Member
Username: Ned_buntline

Post Number: 315
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Man, I haven't posted in a few days - but JEEZ. This is a thread to come back to.

It's obvious that some of you have:

a) never been in the military, and

b) have no f'n idea who is over here right now.

I've had the absolute privilege to work very closely with the men and women over here right now. Some of you people are completely insane.

Joke or not (I'd still like to know what the big joke was in the first place - whether it was directed at Bush OR the troops) folks here find Kerry's words very hurtful, insulting, and most of all, unhelpful. Don't think for a moment that this stuff doesn't get to our soldiers. Every night they come in from the sand hills and slums and talk about what they've heard, or read on the internet, or received in an email from home.

The reasons why the folks join are as varied as snowflakes. In my case, I was offered a hockey scholarship right out of high school. This was shortly after the Iranians took our hostages back in '79. I thought I could be better used by throwing my name into the hat. Western Michigan deferred my scholarship until my initial four-year enlisted stint was up. After I finished my four years of college, I returned to the military - this time as an officer. I wouldn't consider myself stupid. I have a degree in electrical engineering with a minor in history (neither of which I use, BTW). I've met many folks in my years not only in the service, but working closely with military folks in my current job who are similarly educated, and some that are vastly MORE educated. The many folks I've met without college degrees are intelligent, committed, and most of all, understand honor and purpose. With all of the education I've seen in government (and some even on this board), I wouldn't say that many of the most critical have enough honor and purpose to hold these people's coat!

I am incensed at what I've seen in the American media, and what I've heard coming out of some of our politician's mouths. It's disgusting and demeaning. For GOD'S SAKE! These people are laying their LIVES on the line for you! They are NOT fodder for jokes! They are in a got-damned WAR! SUPPORT THEM!

Holy JEEZ!

It's 11:15 pm. I'm going to bed. I'm so p**sed off I don't know if I can sleep.

(Message edited by Ned Buntline on November 03, 2006)
 

No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"And this is definately NOT to disrespect any soldiers out there."

This ending statement made me think of others that shouldn't have to be said - like when somebody says, "I'm not a racist, but...".

I am sure that the statement wasn't intended to be insulting to soldiers, but if somebody told me I chose my profession because I didn't have a lot of other options, I would find that offensive. Regardless of any soldier's reasons for joining the military, our country owes them our complete support, especially during a time of war. This month is only 3 days old, and already the US has lost 11 soldiers.

The reason that Iraq is a mess is because of Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. With leaders like these, I don't think we could hope for any better.

The time has come to remove the rubber stamp congress.
 

Mike A.
Member
Username: Mike_a

Post Number: 189
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 09:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ned, thanks for everything you and the troops are doing in Iraq. I'm hoping everyone can safely return home as soon as possible.

Kerry was simply trying to joke that Bush got our country stuck in a war because he's uneducated. Unfortunately, the fumbled words have been exploited and blown into a campaign attack against the democrats just days before the election.

FWIW, I don't agree with Steve or what the distorted meaning implies about our troops.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 1343
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, while Kerry et al like to joke about Bush being dumb it really makes no sense. Bush ranked higher on his IQ test (whether that's even a legitimate intelligence test is for another discussion) than Kerry. So if Bush is stupid then Kerry is an imbecile.

Ned, thank you for going over there and tell our guys that THEY ROCK!!!
 

Steve Sampson
Intermediate Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 274
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, November 03, 2006 - 11:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess I was just trying to find a way to rationalize what Kerry said/meant, no need to make the assumption that I was trying to insult soldiers.
 

Steve Sampson
Intermediate Member
Username: Sampsosm

Post Number: 275
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"And this is definately NOT to disrespect any soldiers out there."

This ending statement made me think of others that shouldn't have to be said - like when somebody says, "I'm not a racist, but...".


Or thers also the possibilty that I said that because I don't want to disrespect any soldiers out there, and I do greatly appreciate everything they do.

if somebody told me I chose my profession because I didn't have a lot of other options, I would find that offensive.

Really? I would say the majority of people out there are not really working their "dream job", sorry buddy, its just like that, no need to take offense at it. I can say right now, I accepted my job because there weren't many other options out there, but you make the best of it and maybe someday you get exactly what you want. The economy isn't exactly "booming" right now, remember 9/11?

I in no way meant that anyone who enjoys a job in the military, or makes the conscious decision to join is a worthless, stupid, poor piece of trash, I just can't see how the majority of people over there feel that they should be over there, could be wrong, I just don't see it. If I'm wrong, GOOD!, because morale needs to stay high with our people over there.

Also, as an aside, I think asking a troop whether or not he thinks they should be over there, or whether they are making a large impact should be taken with a grain of salt, since no soldier wants anyone to feel sorry for them, or feel self pity themselves.

As another aside, I never once stated that having less of an education, is good or bad, so don't presume I'm giving it a negative connotation. I can say that the armed forces are made up of a large percentage of young, inexperienced, american citizens, and yes its more tragic to me when very young people die, thats just me. I feel extreme caution should be taken when going to war, and I don't believe that George W. took extreme caution, feel free to disagree.

Nomoreyears,

How about this one: I'm not calling you a jerkwad or anything, but please don't assume that I added the previous disclaimer in my post when really I truly felt the opposite.

Pretty twisted, huh?
 

No MoreYears
New Member
Username: Nomoreyears

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 04, 2006 - 06:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Twisted indeed. And not entirely undeserved. I really do believe that you weren't intending offense, BUT... Oh forget it. My brain hurts.

I guess it's easy to see why any statement about the military these days can cause a bit of an uproar. John Kerry found that out even though his statement was meant to be aimed at George.
 

John Jacox
Member
Username: Johnj

Post Number: 201
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just an aside about why the military has to recruit. It isn't just about numbers, it is to ensure that they gain the most qualified candidates possible. All jobs in the military are much more than picking up a rifle and shooting at someone. It takes a great deal of intelligence and training to operate todays weapons systems and all personnel need to be trained in leadership and tactics because you never know when an emergency will require anyone to step into a leadership role. In addition, many candidates are screened out due to past history of drug use, criminal activity or lack of high school education. I spent twenty three years in the U.S. Navy, and I truly believe that at the time I retired five years ago, the quality of the average recruit was far and away the best it had ever been. They are truly the most dedicated, professional, hardworking, and honorable young men and women that I have ever had the privilege to work with.
John Jacox
ETC (Ret)
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 435
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 05, 2006 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Excellent point John.

I was active back in the eighties and as far as back then the standards had been raised for recruits. As I recall, you could not join with a G.E.D. A High School diploma was an absolute requirement. The age of a judge ordering a troublemaker to join the Army or go to jail have long since passed. This is another reason the armed forces have to work hard at recruiting. They will not take just anybody. And for good reason as John has pointed out.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5990
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 06:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Insulting Our Troops, and Our Intelligence
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

George Bush, Dick Cheney and Don Rumsfeld think you’re stupid. Yes, they do.

They think they can take a mangled quip about President Bush and Iraq by John Kerry — a man who is not even running for office but who, unlike Mr. Bush and Mr. Cheney, never ran away from combat service — and get you to vote against all Democrats in this election.

Every time you hear Mr. Bush or Mr. Cheney lash out against Mr. Kerry, I hope you will say to yourself, “They must think I’m stupid.” Because they surely do.

They think that they can get you to overlook all of the Bush team’s real and deadly insults to the U.S. military over the past six years by hyping and exaggerating Mr. Kerry’s mangled gibe at the president.

What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to the U.S. military than to send it into combat in Iraq without enough men — to launch an invasion of a foreign country not by the Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force, but by the Rumsfeld Doctrine of just enough troops to lose? What could be a bigger insult than that?

What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in uniform than sending them off to war without the proper equipment, so that some soldiers in the field were left to buy their own body armor and to retrofit their own jeeps with scrap metal so that roadside bombs in Iraq would only maim them for life and not kill them? And what could be more injurious and insulting than Don Rumsfeld’s response to criticism that he sent our troops off in haste and unprepared: Hey, you go to war with the army you’ve got — get over it.

What could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in uniform than to send them off to war in Iraq without any coherent postwar plan for political reconstruction there, so that the U.S. military has had to assume not only security responsibilities for all of Iraq but the political rebuilding as well? The Bush team has created a veritable library of military histories — from “Cobra II” to “Fiasco” to “State of Denial” — all of which contain the same damning conclusion offered by the very soldiers and officers who fought this war: This administration never had a plan for the morning after, and we’ve been making it up — and paying the price — ever since.

And what could possibly be more injurious and insulting to our men and women in Iraq than to send them off to war and then go out and finance the very people they’re fighting against with our gluttonous consumption of oil? Sure, George Bush told us we’re addicted to oil, but he has not done one single significant thing — demanded higher mileage standards from Detroit, imposed a gasoline tax or even used the bully pulpit of the White House to drive conservation — to end that addiction. So we continue to finance the U.S. military with our tax dollars, while we finance Iran, Syria, Wahhabi mosques and Al Qaeda madrassas with our energy purchases.

Everyone says that Karl Rove is a genius. Yeah, right. So are cigarette companies. They get you to buy cigarettes even though we know they cause cancer. That is the kind of genius Karl Rove is. He is not a man who has designed a strategy to reunite our country around an agenda of renewal for the 21st century — to bring out the best in us. His “genius” is taking some irrelevant aside by John Kerry and twisting it to bring out the worst in us, so you will ignore the mess that the Bush team has visited on this country.

And Karl Rove has succeeded at that in the past because he was sure that he could sell just enough Bush cigarettes, even though people knew they caused cancer. Please, please, for our country’s health, prove him wrong this time.

Let Karl know that you’re not stupid. Let him know that you know that the most patriotic thing to do in this election is to vote against an administration that has — through sheer incompetence — brought us to a point in Iraq that was not inevitable but is now unwinnable.

Let Karl know that you think this is a critical election, because you know as a citizen that if the Bush team can behave with the level of deadly incompetence it has exhibited in Iraq — and then get away with it by holding on to the House and the Senate — it means our country has become a banana republic. It means our democracy is in tatters because it is so gerrymandered, so polluted by money, and so divided by professional political hacks that we can no longer hold the ruling party to account.

It means we’re as stupid as Karl thinks we are.

I, for one, don’t think we’re that stupid. Next Tuesday we’ll see.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Bob Wall
Intermediate Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 442
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 08:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny,

That whole article is based on a false preposition. Friedman calls it a "mangled quip" but it was really a Freudian Slip.
Give a man a beer and he'll waste an hour. Teach a man to brew and he'll waste a lifetime.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 5994
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Monday, November 06, 2006 - 08:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ignore all the Kerry/Rove stuff and look at the question of the administrations actions being injurious and insulting to the troops.....

How do you know it was a Fruedian slip anyway? You're projecting your own beliefs instead of looking at what is. Anyway, I think Kerry is/was an idiot for even bringing it up, mangled joke or not. The point I want to address is the admin's lack of support for our troops. THAT'S what pisses me off.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.

Add Your Message Here
Post:
Bold text Italics Underline Create a hyperlink Insert a clipart image

Username: Posting Information:
This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Password:
Options: Enable HTML code in message
Automatically activate URLs in message
Action: