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Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 550
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not trying to beat a dead horse.............
http://www.howobamagotelected.com/
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2127
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 11:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Speaks volumes.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6258
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2008 - 11:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The same pile of "objectivity."
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 552
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 12:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I give up........
http://www.assistech.com/low_vision/products1/Default.htm?OVRAW=products%20for%2 0the%20blind&OVKEY=product%20for%20the%20blind&OVMTC=standard&OVADID=3337397512& OVKWID=37183824512
For you Dan

Brewzz
 

Patrick C.
Advanced Member
Username: Patrickc

Post Number: 835
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Do you dispute that the majority of our electorate is ignorant and easily swayed, or just have an issue with the partisan nature of it?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2128
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, don't you find it disturbing that the same people who have no clue who Barney Frank, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid are, know for certain that Sara Palin spent $150.000.00 on clothing and that her daughter is pregnant? Could it be that their ignorance and suggestibility works in favor of the Left and you are OK with that? I see that you already resorted to the boiler-plate response that the questions were not "objective". Smearing the source of the question seems to be a new tack the Left is becoming adept at using. Just ask Joe the Plumber.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6259
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL! The premise that Joe stated that got his whole ball rolling was absurd! There is no real way he could buy his employer's business and if he somehow did, there is probably no way it would ever NET $250,000.00.

Get real.
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1893
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 02:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I take it "objectivity" is Dan's new word for the week. Good! I was getting tired of reading "bimodal" half a dozen times in each paragraph!

 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9561
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 02:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The video is mostly sour grapes by Republicans who want to suggest that McCain would have won if only the media had covered the campaign more fairly. The truth is that most people were upset with the economy and George W. Bush, and did not view McCain as being sufficiently different from the policies of the past eight years. Obama was seen as a different kind of candidate who offered hope for change, but he also had to overcome the considerable obstacles of his race, unfamiliarlity and relative inexperience.

I have trouble believing that a cross section of McCain supporters would have answered the questions posed in the video any more accurately than those who voted for Obama. Most people are interested in personalities far more than issues; the media follows as much as leads in this regard. The selection of Sarah Palin as McCain's running mate played to this, and the campaign's handling of her only served to emphasize it.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2129
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, you are calling it "sour grapes" because you do not like what was uncovered from the questions.

And Dan, I find it sad that a small businessman like yourself thinks it absurd for someone to have dreams of buying a small business and making a better living for himself. You are merely parroting all the negativity heaped upon one small guy who dared to ask the "anointed one" a tough question. What a class act you are.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6260
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks Bob, you are on a roll.

The guy's "dream" was shear fantasy. He was only parrioting GOP propaganda.

Bill the video trys to give teh strong impression that the interviews were random when they could be far from it. It would not be hard to interview a lot of people and only play the worst for your own advantage.

How about someone asking McCain voters what they think Obama's religion is? In Texas, that percentage was in the twenties.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9562
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 03:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, let me change the semantics and say that Republicans are looking to spread the blame for McCain's defeat. It doesn't change the fact that the primary reason was the public's dissatisfaction with the past eight years. As for the general ignorance about the issues, that is systemic and cuts across party lines. It's not a partisan issue.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2130
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

deflect and reject. S.O.P. when the flashlight catches the roaches in the kitchen.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9564
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If that's your metaphor of choice, Bob, then my point is that the roaches are both blue and red, and quite a few of them aren't even aware of their color. To continue with a phrase from another field: garbage in, garbage out.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2131
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, how about asking Obama himself what his religion is? He sat for 20 years in the pews of a church that has a racist and bigoted preacher, then denounced that preacher when it became a political necessity. Then we have him being interviewed by George Snuffleufagus and he himself says "My Muslim Faith" when referring to his religion. Then there is the down-playing of Obama attending a Madrassa as a child. They try to pass it off as just a normal school like any other, but a Madrassa is not like any other school.

So if any McCain supporters are confused about Obama's religious identity, they are in good comapny with the man himself.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2132
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There you go again Bill. Any time any warts of the Left are exposed, you immediately respond with "you too"

Sure the Right has it's share of idiots too. Present company included. But this topic is not about that. What this report shows is that the media has done a superb job hammering home it's vicious smear campaign against Sarah Palin to the point where people who don't know the facts, or the key players, have no doubts about the "truth" of the Leftist propaganda.

I guess the side with the best propaganda machine wins.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9565
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I respect those Republicans who voted for McCain and believe he was the better candidate to address the issues facing the US and the world. However, I'm asking now if conservatives are going to attempt to solve these immense problems, acting in the role of loyal opposition but also occasionally working together with Obama as he reaches out to them. Or are they going to spend the next four years in bitter denial and a focus on peripheral and largely irrelevant personal issues such as his religion, trying to stonewall any efforts for change until 2012 when they attempt to nominate their own candidate who stresses partisanship and division?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6261
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Bob, you suspect Obama of being a secret Muslum. Well that says far more about you than Obama.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6262
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 05:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

" Or are they going to spend the next four years in bitter denial and a focus on peripheral and largely irrelevant personal issues such as his religion, trying to stonewall any efforts for change until 2012 when they attempt to nominate their own candidate who stresses partisanship and division?"

It worked for them, to a degree anyway, in 2000.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2184
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

whistling in the grave yard..........

Does nothing for you except makes you feel better for a short time.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1938
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I think your question was addressed fairly well at the Republican Governors' Association convention last week. The answer: a little of both; the Republican Party is confused.

Those (mostly older) party leaders who identify themselves as Republicans first, conservatives second, still seem to care more about winning and losing, making the Democrats look bad, and ramping up the negative tactics for 2010. Haley Barbour was the face of this part of the group. I don't remember the exact quote, but it was something like, "McCain could have won the election if he had been willing to make Obama unacceptable to the American public. That's what we have to strive for next time."

Those (mostly younger) leaders who identify themselves as conservatives first, Republicans second, focused more on the need for the Republicans to build a positive brand image through clean, effective government and thoughtful presentation of core principles. Bobby Jindal seemed to lead that group, and Sarah Palin at least paid lip service to those ideas.

My guess is that there will be some period of infighting before the Republicans as a whole decide which path to take. During that time, individual members will lurch back and forth, sometimes obstructing, sometimes working with Obama. If, in the end, they decide to take the high road as a group, we may well see a repeat of 1994 in 2010, with a huge surge of Republican representation in Congress. If they take the obstructionist path, they may spend some time in the wilderness before returning to power.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7065
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Those interviews remind me of Hannity's "man on the street" interviews. Whenever I hear those, it sounds like they went out of their way to find uniformed idiots in order to make liberals look bad. I always wonder why they don't have people like me on who could actually answer the questions they ask. I have great doubts that the interviews in that video were not cherry picked.

(Message edited by denny on November 19, 2008)
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1939
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I finally got a minute to watch that video. Well, part of it. I got sick of it pretty quick and turned it off.

I'm coming to the conclusion that "The MSM was biased in 2008" will become, for some Republicans, what "Florida stole the election for Bush in 2000" was (is) for some Democrats. A certain segment of the Republican Party will become forever stuck in time, gnawing on the bones of an election gone past. I do know Democrats for whom this is true; even Obama's victory hasn't been enough to get them to let go of their sense of grievance and injustice. And I'm already hearing the same tone of voice among some Republicans. I have the feeling that they'll still be grumbling to each other about media bias long, long after the rest of the country, including most Republicans, have moved on.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7070
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 07:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with that, Paul.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6266
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2008 - 07:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would like to see a list of media that are not "MSM" in the Right's mind besides "Fox," the "Washington Times" and the Rightwing talk shows. It would not be long.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6270
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 02:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"A certain segment of the Republican Party will become forever stuck in time, gnawing on the bones of an election gone past."

I suppose that it will never occur to them to consider that their basic philosophies might be very defective as strongly demonstrated by the failed attempts to make them work under the Bush administration.

All philosophies are not created equal.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1941
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Actually, Dan, I disagree with that. Strongly. The Bush administration failed largely through sheer incompetence and poor internal quality control. But it never even TRIED to implement true small-government fiscal conservativism. If it had, we wouldn't have half the mess we have now.

I don't think that Goldwater-type conservative ideas are the answer to every problem. But I do think that Goldwater-type conservatives have valid points to make about the proper roles and limits of government. And I think that this country needs that side of the argument to be made clearly and powerfully in order for us to find the right balance of regulation and freedom.

Bush's lasting legacy will be the damage he did to that cause through his incompetence and through general abandonment of its principles. In many ways, not least by spending so much money, he was a less conservative President than Clinton. And by claiming to be a conservative, while suborning conservative values, he was, really, a traitor to his own side. We need conservatives, and he has nearly wiped out the brand.

If the Republican party can shake off Bush's legacy, and if it can untangle itself from its alliance with social ("values") conservatives (mostly, but not exclusively, the hard-core Christian right), it can quickly become relevant again in all States, even very blue ones. And it will be doing the country a favor.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6271
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I won't debate Bush's competence, that is obvious. But if the philosophies were really as robust as the Right seems to think they are, they should be able to be demonstrated despite even that level of incompetence.

Take "Supply Side Economics." From the experience of Reagan, Clinton and Bush, it is obvious that we are on the left side of the so-called Laffer Curve, not the right. Cutting taxes will produce lower revenue increases compared to raising taxes. Please read my sentence carefully -"lower revenue increases" - not necessarily lower revenue levels. There is a difference.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1942
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, there is much more to small-government conservativism than supply side economics. Like freedom from government interference, personal responsibility, ownership, the use of market mechanisms to allocate resources, public-private partnerships to provide services, etc. These are important parts of a philosophical whole, a Libertarian-leaning ideology which places faith, and a burden, on the individual. It says, "We are adults. We should behave like adults and we should be treated like adults and we should accept the consequences of our own actions like adults." You should not discount the entire ideology just because of the mis-application of a single part.

I would argue that you cannot really be a social conservative and a fiscal conservative at the same time. If you believe that the government should be a nanny on social issues, then you cannot also argue that it has no role as nanny on other issues. The old cliche is that Democrats want government out of the bedroom and into the boardroom and the Republicans want the opposite. But there is no clear, bright line separating the two areas. The alliance of social and fiscal conservatives started the rot which is so visible in the Republican party today.

The answer isn't to jettison the whole thing, but to isolate and clarify the two ideologies. Maybe we need a Christian Right Party and a soft-Libertarian party. Then each could make its case unfettered by compromise with the other.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6272
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did not condemn the entire philosophy based on a single example, just took the most obvious one that came to mind.

As for Libertarianism, I often compare it to Abstinence Only Sex Education (note "Only" please.) They both are inarguable in theory. If you don't have sex, you will not get pregnant. If everybody acted like adults, you would not need much government. The trouble is that in practice, neither work very well. Even the very leaders of conservatism screw up. Witness Sen. Stevens as just the most recent case.

Conservatism seems to gravitate toward simplistic opinions as reflected by my favorite word to describe them.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2136
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Bob, you suspect Obama of being a secret Muslum. Well that says far more about you than Obama.

Dan you are an idiot and a liar.

Show me my post where I claim he is a "secret Muslim". My claim is that he has an identity crisis, but you are too stupid to fathom that.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6273
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I never said that You "claimed" it, but you intimated that you suspected such a thing might be possible.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1943
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I argue that ANY ideology pushed to its extreme generates illogical and unworkable policy. This is no less true for nanny-state Socialism than it is for full, laissez-faire Libertarianism. All the more reason that all points of view be represented in the debate, so that the final compromise reached after all the pulling and tugging lies in a reasonable middle area. Bush did us all no favors by knocking the legs out from under the Conservatives.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2137
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Read my post again, if your bias will allow it. My claim is that Obama himself is confused about his own religious affiliations and this has opened the door to wider speculation. I never "intimated" he is a Muslim. In fact, I have stated in previous threads that I DON'T think that he is a Muslim. But I do think he IS confused.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6274
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 06:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To paraphrase General Powell, "So what if he was a Muslim?"
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2138
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have tremendous respect for Powell, but that comment is like saying: "So what if Obama is a liar?"
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6275
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I have tremendous respect for Powell, but that comment is like saying: "So what if Obama is a liar?"

I will say it again. That comment says far more about you than it does about Powell or Obama.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2139
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 08:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, the level of your ignorance and myopia is astounding. Is logic a foreign concept to you?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6276
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, as a loyal and patriotic citizen of the United States of America, I found your comment disturbing to say the very least. I have to restrain myself.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2140
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What did you find disturbing? I think you are jumping to conclusions.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6277
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You seem to have missed the concept behind "Freedom of Religion" as stated in the First Amendment of the Constitution of the United States of America.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2141
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 09:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL! you really do suffer from myopia don't you.

You are trying so hard to pigeon-hole me (pun intended) that you completely missed the point I was making.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6278
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2008 - 10:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well you might need to expand upon,"I have tremendous respect for Powell, but that comment is like saying: "So what if Obama is a liar?"

Somehow I get the idea that you are putting members of the Islamic faith in a category at least equal to liars.

You might consider the context of Powell's quote. It was about freedom of religion, not about Obama's honesty.



(Message edited by listermann on November 20, 2008)
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2142
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Somehow I get the idea that you are putting members of the Islamic faith in a category at least equal to liars.

More myopia.

Ok, I probably shouldn't, but I will explain.

1. Obama says He is a Christian and not a Muslim.
2. Powell says "So what if he was a Muslim?"
3. If that were true, then it would make Obama a liar.

Again, you focus on your misperceptions of what I said instead of taking a real hard look at someone who for 20 years sat in the church pews of a radical, racist, anti-American hate-monger, absorbing years of his filth and venom, and then threw him under a bus when it became politically necessary.

I am beginning to think Obama's real religion is Politics. Maybe he only attended that church to further his political career? After all, in one of his two autobiographies Obama says this:

“To avoid being mistaken for a sellout, I chose my friends carefully. The more politically active black students. The foreign students. The Chicanos. The Marxist professors and structural feminists.”

So, if this guy chooses his friends carefully, (Marxist Professors) and these are the kind of friends he chooses, it is of no surprise he gravitated toward scumbag pseudo-preachers like Wright and Phleger. And he is not really a Christian as much as he is a political creature.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6279
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You totally missed Powell's point . . . which was that it SHOULD be OK for someone to be a Muslum in America. It had NOTHING to do with some sort of honesty. You totally failed to see the context of Powell's comment and are starting to look silly for it.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2143
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 03:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, Say "Thank you, Bob." if you have a gay crush on me.

(Message edited by BrewDudeBob on November 21, 2008)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6282
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you, Bob.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Intermediate Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 361
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I usually stay out of these, but I gotta go with Bob on this one. I don't think he missed Powell's point. It is OK for somebody to be Muslim in America. It's OK for them to run for office. But if they do they shouldn't lie about it, especially if they are lying just to get elected. This goes for people of any religion.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6283
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 12:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where does anyone get the idea that Powell was saying anything at all about lying at any level? That whole premise is totally absurd. Please check out the "Meet the Press" interview and see for yourself. I saw it live. He was responding to McCain explaining to some woman who thought that Obama was a Muslum. McCain said that Obama was not a Muslum. He was an honorable family man. While I am sure McCain meant well, it sounded like he thought being a Muslum and a family man was somehow incompatible. Again, please check out the interview yourself.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2146
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First of all loverboy, it is spelled Muslim. Not Muslum. Sounds like you are being a little intolerant yourself.

Second, the horse is dead already.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Intermediate Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 362
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 01:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think Powell was saying anything about lying at any level. Bob was. But that doesn't mean he missed Powell's point.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9575
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 02:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob persists in believing that Obama's remark about "my Muslim faith" is a sign he is conflicted about his religious beliefs. I attribute it, like his comment that he had visited 57 states, to too many sleepless nights on the campaign plane. In this age of cell phone video recorders and You Tube, every misstep takes on a life of its own.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1945
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 03:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Powell said (and I paraphrase), "Why should it matter if he may be a Muslim?"

I say (no paraphrase), "Why should it matter if he may be conflicted about his religion?"

I agree with Bill that Obama was probably just suffering from jet lag and overwork and mis-spoke. But this point seems so important to Bob (he just keeps bringing it up!) that let's give it to him just for the duration of this discussion. For the remainder of this thread, take it as a given that Obama has an "identity crisis".

SO WHAT?

The guy ran a top-notch national campaign for 21 months. He saw off a well-entrenched, well-funded rival with much better party support during the primaries. He won the Presidency with a minimum of negative smear-mongering. He showed poise, intelligence, and depth of knowledge in the debates and in his response to the financial crisis. He has shown discipline, a fierce work ethic, and a willingness to embrace old rivals as he has put together a staff and cabinet long before it was necessary. He is skillfully charting a difficult course in being involved with the financial crises without upstaging Bush.

In short, he appears to be a competent, hard-working, clean-living, moral, intelligent, and savvy public servant, doing a good job of getting ready to be President in 8 weeks.

I can't see how this "identity crisis" is hurting him, or us, or the rest of the world. OTOH, Bush certainly had no such conflicts but that didn't make him competent. Let's try to focus on something that matters.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6284
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I can't see how dwelling on a belief that Powell was talking about Obama's honesty regarding his religion when he was clearly discussing freedom of religion can constitute anything but missing Powell's point.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2147
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 03:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill,

I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt to Obama on those flubs, but the point I am trying to make is people who already doubt his truthfulness see those remarks as more of a Freudian slip than just a simple flub.

Again, I myself do not think he is a "Secret Muslim" but his Black Liberation Theology brand of Quasi-Christianity a huge issue with me. And before we go down that rabbit-hole, read up on James Cone. His books are available for sale at Obama's (former?) Church.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2185
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good Lord.....The sky is falling the sky is falling.

Funny how complex the thought process is and how much obscure reseach is done for republicans when democrat is elected, but when someone who is clearly not up for the job (Bush) is running on the Presidency there is no more thought than "I could drink a beer with him".

-Doug
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2148
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh?

And nobody ever questioned Palin's religion?

Get real Doug.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2186
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 04:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Real is that we have a President elect who is smart, focused and best of all not evil. Real is that there is nothing we can do about it for 4 years. Real is that you can say what you will and it will not change anything....so please say it loud and say it proud...whistle in the grave yard....what ever you can do to make yourself feel good for a while. When something scares you the first order of business is to make yourself feel better about it.

-Doug
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1946
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay, Bob, "his Black Liberation Theology brand of Quasi-Christianity a huge issue with me."

Again, why? What are you so afraid will happen? I mean, realistically, given the checks and balances in American government and the difficulty of getting anything through Congress? How will your life be affected?

I'm NOT saying that Obama couldn't do bad things if he wanted to. Bush got our soldiers killed (even if you believe that the Iraq war was necessary, his team bungled the peace badly), tapped our phones without warrants, put unconstitutional gag orders on US citizens, flouted international law, tarnished our reputation as a moral country, etc. Obama could do the same sorts of things. I think he'd have a tougher time of it without a new 9/11 to make the opposition more pliant, but it is, theoretically, possible that some latent evil in the guy could yet cause him to hurt us.

So, I want to know. What is in your darkest nightmare about the bad stuff which will go down?
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1947
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hmmmm. Silence.

I'm getting deja vu here. When I was a kid, my sister and I would go visit my cousin. He'd always say, "I've got something really cool to show you! Follow me." And we'd follow him down the path and through the woods forever, until we'd finally realize that he didn't have anything to show us after all. He just liked dragging us through the woods.

That's how I'm starting to feel here. We've accepted, for the purpose of argument, that Obama is conflicted about his religion. We've accepted, again for the purpose of argument, that the religion he's conflicted about is Black Liberation Theology. We'll go further, again FTPOA, and accept that BLT is an evil, anti-American conspiracy. But I'm not going any further down this path until you tell us what awful thing is so scary at the end of it.

Don't make it lame, now. You talk as if the moment when the "real" Barack Obama emerges from his disguise is going to be like the moment when the big bug sheds his "Edgar suit" at the end of Men In Black. I love a good scare. I'm all a-tingle. Make me crap my pants now. Tell me what's hiding inside the mild professor.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1948
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 06:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

....crickets chirping....
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2149
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 06:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug,

You lose all credibility when you call Bush evil.

Paul,

All those things you list that Bush did he could not have done without the support of a rather substantial group of Democrats. the War, The Patriot Act, etc..

Do you really have to ask why I have a problem with someone who admittedly, pourposely, gravitates toward Marxist professors, and sits in the pews of a church where Marxist propaganda is espoused? Are you serious?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2150
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 06:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"....crickets chirping...."

Sorry Paul, I'm at work. Can't be hanging here at every moment waiting for your posts to arrive...
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2151
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Don't make it lame, now. You talk as if the moment when the "real" Barack Obama emerges from his disguise is going to be like the moment when the big bug sheds his "Edgar suit" at the end of Men In Black."

LOL!

I have already come to the conclusion that Obama is not as much religious as he is political. But it is the foundation of his political thought that has been poisoned with the notion that Marxist ideology is a good thing and that is where I feel the basis of his decision making will derive.

He will not be overt. But he will nudge his gullible followers further down the path of Marxism and/or Socialism.

I hope I am wrong about him. but I don't think I am.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6285
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I see Obama as a deeply pragmatic leader who will do what needs to be done without consulting some patent ideology, unlike what Bush attempted to do, only to find out that the ideology was leading in wrong directions. Incapable of admitting error, even to himself, he just doubled up on the ideology with the obvious results.

But this is just "Bush Bashing" which is totally hate driven while ignoring the fact that others followed his lead - Democrats TOO!
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2187
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Toooooooooo Funny.....where is I loose this all important credibility?

Real is that we have a President elect who is smart, focused and best of all not evil. Real is that there is nothing we can do about it for 4 years. Real is that you can say what you will and it will not change anything....so please say it loud and say it proud...whistle in the grave yard....what ever you can do to make yourself feel good for a while. When something scares you the first order of business is to make yourself feel better about it.

-Doug


The only mention of evil is where I clearly state the Obama is not evil. What kind of world do you live in where the person with the opposing view must be evil? Bush is not evil he is just a failure.

Fear is something you must deal with yourself....I can not help you.

-Doug
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2153
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 08:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now you are playing word games. By saying "Real is that we have a President elect who is smart, focused and best of all not evil." You are back-handedly calling Bush evil. Don't try and weasel out of it.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2188
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 08:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No.....I am saying the the assertion that he is some how an evil maxist blah blah blah is completely and 100% not real. Don't try to figure out what I am "trying" to say in some sort of code its not worth your time and its not worth my time trying to correct you.

Fear can play tricks on the mind. There is no place like home....there is no place like home.

-Doug

(Message edited by doug_p on November 21, 2008)
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2154
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whatever.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1949
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay, Bob. You've hooked me far enough to go a little further down the path.

To make it official: FTPOA, we take it as given that Obama is a Marxist and that "he will nudge his gullible followers further down the path of Marxism and/or Socialism."

So, again, where's the big scary finish?

Let's say that, after said nudge, the USA is as Socialist as, say, Germany or France. Personally, I don't think any President can take us that far, not this country, but let's say it's true. Labor representation on corporate boards, big welfare benefits, red tape, higher taxes than we are used to, government involvement in medical care, the whole nine yards.

But the French and Germans seem pretty happy. Speech is fairly free. Religion too. It certainly isn't the Soviet Union, where the government might take your kids away if you read the Bible to them. The companies compete well internationally. No mass exodus of huddled masses.

I'm not feeling the fear here. Gimme something more.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2155
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 11:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No thanks Paul, I am not going down that Rabbit hole.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9577
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 12:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What's inside the mild professor, and not even really hiding, is someone with different values and point of view than Bob's ideology. That's going to happen sometimes (more often than not, I'd say, given Bob's politics) in a democracy. And Bob, along with others of this stripe, seems bent on reminding us of this at every opportunity. That, too, is a right in a democracy, but most people tend to ignore the constant naysaying.

I don't believe Obama walks on water, and the problems he faces are the most serious of any president since FDR. It has been just over two weeks since the election. Isn't it fair that the criticism should wait for his actual performance rather than his anticipated failings before he even takes the oath of office?
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1952
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 02:35 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That won't work, Bill. Bob has said that he changed from being apathetic and apolitical to being an engaged right-winger because he was upset by all of the criticism the left wing hurled at Bush after 9/11. He was angry that people would treat the President that way. I assume that, to be fair and consistent, he will stop criticizing Obama once Obama takes the oath of office and becomes President. That gives Bob only 8 weeks to make his case, all of which will pre-date Obama's actual term.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2156
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 02:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"but most people tend to ignore the constant naysaying."

You mean like the incessant harping and carping of the Left for the last 8 years?

"He was angry that people would treat the President that way."

Don't put words into my mouth Paul. It wasn't that they were simply bashing the President, They were bashing our troops as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7FaSEQ-fKc

Dick Durbin is only one of the many voices who shamelessly assassinated the character of our troops. We also have John Murtha. A scumbag of epic proportions who accused his own fellow Marines of killing "innocent civilians in cold blood"

I am still waiting for Murtha's apology. I won't hold my breath.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6287
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 05:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b7FaSEQ-fKc

WHOOO! What is the idea of stopping that clip without allowing the man to read the subject matter?! Are we expected to just think that Dick Durbin is totally disloyal, unpatriotic hater of our troops not knowing what caused him to say why? He is going to read an FBI report. Talk about BIAS! Who posted that?

And Bob, you seem to buy it just as it is without question. WTF?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2161
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 10:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You bought into Obama without question. WTP?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6290
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 11:02 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I knew very well what McCain was selling. It has not worked.

Back to the subject. Where can we see the FBI report?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2164
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 12:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you "knew very well what McCain was selling"

Then what pray tell was The Annointed One selling?

Hope? Change?

Those are great catch-phrases, but are they good policy?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6291
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 01:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Buying a lemon is not good policy.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2170
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 02:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess with Obama, Hope is all we get. He gets our Change.

yippee.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6293
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 04:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hope is better than a lemon.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2172
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 04:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd rather keep my change.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6296
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You do seem to admire the presidency of Bush. It is reasonable to understand how you would dislike much deviation from it. Sorry for your loss.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1957
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 01:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> Don't put words into my mouth Paul. It wasn't that they were simply bashing the President, They were bashing our troops as well.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. "It was the Left and their venomous attacks on my commander in chief, (yes, my commander in chief, I am a veteran) that drove me toward the right." You wrote that on 9/15/08. (If anyone thinks that I am taking that out of context, they can re-read the entire post: http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/discus/show.cgi?tpc=6065&post=293968#POST293968.) It's pretty clear that you were talking only about Bush. I'm not saying that I can read your mind. Perhaps you didn't mean it quite the way you wrote it. But I can't be faulted for taking you at your word.

> You mean like the incessant harping and carping of the Left for the last 8 years?

That excuse has particular resonance with me. But not in a good way. It seems that I have the following conversation with one or the other of my kids almost every day:

me: "Stop calling your sister/brother names."
child: "She/he did it to me yesterday."
me: "So that makes it right for you to do it back?"
child: "Tell her/him to stop first!"

I hate to hear it from them and I hate more to hear it from adults. "He did it to me first" is just the lamest excuse in the book.

All that aside, in less than 2 months, Barack Obama will be your Commander In Chief, whether you voted for him or not. He will be every bit as much your CIC as Bush currently is. I expect that you will treat him with the respect and courtesy that you think the office deserves.

I will feel free to criticize his performance at any time, just as I have felt free to criticize Bush's. That is not only the right but the patriotic duty of every citizen who believes that a government official is harming the interests of the country and its citizens. "Freedom of speech" was dreamt up by people who had watched others get beheaded or worse because they questioned the king's spending decisions. It's not about publishing pornography or yelling "Fire!" in a crowded theater. It's about saying, "Donald Rumsfeld's incompetence is causing our troops to die." without going to jail. Too many Americans have died defending that right for me not to take it very seriously.

That doesn't mean that I will heap vitriol on Obama or question his parentage or photoshop his head onto some porn star's body. But you can bet your ass I'll speak up when I disagree with his policies.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2174
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 03:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, so now that YOUR guy us about to assume office, it has suddenly become childish to harp and carp? When your side was doing it, was it any less childish? Where was your self-righteous indignation in the 8 years prior?
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2189
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sloooooooooooooooooow Doooooooooooown.....Bob

The way I read what Paul posted is that by your standards when Obama becomes CIC you should based on your own standards and what you expected of the left during Lord God King Bush's tenure you should no longer bash the CIC.

Paul is saying that he will still feel free to question and even bash the CIC even though it is Obama.

BTW, as a person who was raised an Army brat whose father put in 20 years in the army whose father joined (not drafted) the army during an unpopular war when others were doing what ever they could to avoid it I have to say that I feel that questioning the CIC and the mission by civilains is not bashing the troops. It is providing and additional check to the system that soldiers can not add. The troops can not question the mission, they execute it not for you and me or for the beloved President they do it for the guy next to them and the guy behind them and the guy in front of them. If they don't do it one of their brothers will have to do it.

-Doug
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1959
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm sorry. I don't recall volunteering to be responsible for anyone's actions but my own (and my children's). I don't hold you personally responsible for what Alan Keyes says, only for what you say. In return, I don't expect to be held responsible for anything on MSNBC.

That said, I can direct your attention to at least a dozen posts here in which I have taken someone on "my" side to task for posts which I believe were mistaken, childish, or uncalled-for. I believe in dissent and informed discussion. I do not believe in name-calling and shouting matches.

In addition, I invite you to search and read through everything I have ever posted to this board. I have certainly questioned the competence, wisdom, and decisions of the Bush administration and of Bush personally, things which directly affect the performance of their duties. I have never engaged in character assassination or repeated unfounded rumors about their personal lives or anything else which does not affect their job performance. If I "harp and carp", it is about things which actually happened and which I find deeply, morally repugnant, such as rendition, torture, detention without trial, domestic spying, and inadequate funding for the Army and VA health care systems. I, personally, do not "harp and carp" about whether Bush drank too much when he was younger or whether it's right for McCain to be on his second wife, things which do not affect their job performance.

Moreover, I am dismayed that you took nothing else away from my post. Yes, I am tweaking you a little by asking you to apply your own standards of conduct to yourself for the next 4 years. If I have overstepped, I apologize. But I will continue to call out people on both sides of this argument when I feel there are double standards being applied.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2175
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok Doug,

I HOPE Obama does a good job. And as CIC, I will support him if I think he is doing the right thing. But you'll have to understand if I don't have much faith in the left's ability to handle our country's military issues given their track record.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 1960
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 04:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank you, Doug.

As it happens, I am probably more "pro-military" than most on the left. This is not only due to my family connections (my grandfather was a regular Army grunt, my dad was a Captain in the Air Force, my uncle was an NCO in the Navy, 3 cousins are officers in the Marines, another was in the Coast Guard for 20 years) but because of what I see second-hand through my wife's eyes. She works at a Veterans Admin Med Center caring for vets with PTSD.

Did you know that there is still a hiring freeze in effect for her group, imposed by Bush when he first took office, before 9/11? All of the new PTSD cases returning from OIF and OEF have to be cared for by the same number of staff as used to care for the dwindling cohort of Viet Nam vets. No new people have been hired to deal with the influx. Vets are coming in with stories of more tours, longer tours, and a new policy of using anti-anxiety meds to keep stressed-out soldiers in-theatre rather than giving them R&R. Then when they come home and have nightmares and flashbacks, there isn't enough staff to care for them.

If I criticize Bush as CIC, it is partially because I think he has failed in his duty to care for our troops. They deserve better.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6301
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 04:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

" But you'll have to understand if I don't have much faith in the left's ability to handle our country's military issues given their track record."

That must be very disappointing to you considering the Right's track record.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7076
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Oh, so now that YOUR guy us about to assume office, it has suddenly become childish to harp and carp? When your side was doing it, was it any less childish?"

Not suddenly become....always has been...childish for either side....so, your position is that 2 wrongs DO make a right?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9587
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 05:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"But you'll have to understand if I don't have much faith in the left's ability to handle our country's military issues given their track record."

Bob, I'm curious. Is there a president other than Reagan during the past 50 years whose track record on military issues you approve of?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2176
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 9589
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 05:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No further questions, your honor.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2177
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 08:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wait a minute...50 years?

Eisenhower.

 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6302
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There was the advisers and equipment aid to Nam and the genesis for the Bay of Pigs invasion.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2178
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

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