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Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1596
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 10:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not sure if he truly does deserve the peace prize. If it'd been up to me, I'd rather have waited and seen what the next three years will bring. But as an indication of what many non-americans think of the contrast between Bush and Obama, well, there you have it.

(Message edited by joques on October 09, 2009)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6806
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

WOW!

Now for the Righties to start degrading the Nobel Committee.

(Message edited by listermann on October 09, 2009)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10771
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 10:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The prize is very largely symbolic. Despite what he stands for, Obama leads a nation that seems to lack the will to face its problems.
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1597
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 11:07 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, but it's not the nation who's getting the peace prize, it's the man ;)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6807
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 11:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Obama should send a nice thank you note to Bush.
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1598
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 01:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yep. I can't imagine that Obama would have gotten the prize if he hadn't been preceded by eight years of continuous foreign policy disaster.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2186
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Now for the Righties to start degrading the Nobel Committee."

Yeah, because there was NOTHING political behind them giving him the award. This award is a great time for us to reflect and look back at all that wonderful work he did in those two weeks he was in office before the deadline.
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1599
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Haha, I just read a funny line on FB: "Imagine being so catastrophically inept at your job, that your successor gets the Nobel Peace Prize, just for not being YOU!"

 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6808
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is no "un Nobel" prize that they could have presented to Bush.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7286
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 04:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There is the "Ig Nobel"....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ig_Nobel_Prize

NPR Science Friday broadcasts the presentations and they're always a hoot!
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10773
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Someone won an "Ig Nobel Prize" for an idea I had almost 40 years ago when I was earning college money as a radio/TV broadcast engineer. I noticed how cables, wires and ropes always seemed to have a tendency to tangle about each other. I thought there must be a way to quantify this property and came up with the concept of the "coefficient of tangle." That's exactly what a graduate student at the University of California at San Diego did a few years ago, and it earned him the prize.
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 724
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, October 09, 2009 - 10:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

" Obama leads a nation that seems to lack the will to face its problems."
That's a load of crap,Bill.I know hundreds of people that are facing this"Nation's Problems"right now...The rest are just sticking their heads in the sand,and waiting for the Government to take care of them...As far as Obama getting the Nobel Prize,He deserves it as much as Al Gore did....or Not
Brewzz
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2788
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, October 10, 2009 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yassir Arafat deserved the Peace Prize more than Obama.
Killing Jews goes a long way in establishing liberal street-cred.
 

Jeff Rankert
Member
Username: Hopfenundmalz

Post Number: 117
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

He got it for the "Beer Summit".
Same day that NASA bombed the moon.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6809
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 03:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nice, but not unexpected, Bob.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2789
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 04:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I heard that McDonald's is going to be including Nobel Peace Prizes in Happy Meals next week. This limited offer expires Dec 21, 2012.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6810
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 04:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Better late than never, Bob. What took you so long to kick in?
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1600
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 10:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, they obviously didn't base this on just what he did in the two weeks before the deadline, but on his track record all the way to the day they decided on the winner. The deadline for nominations isn't a hard cut-off, where anything that happens after that is immaterial.

And of course it's political. The peace prize is super political! And has been for quite a while.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6811
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 12:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I heard that there were 205 nominees and the final decision only happened in September.
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1602
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As far as I understand, they didn't decide until last week. But I won't swear to it.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2790
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 11, 2009 - 09:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Who cares? It is a joke. It is an empty award given by one set of empty suits to another empty suit. Obama winning it now simply proves this fact. It would be different if he had actually DONE something to deserve it.

He may have WON it, but he damn sure didn't EARN it. Much like his Presidency...
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10782
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 01:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I don't have the same attitude about it that you do, but I agree that he has had scant time and done rather little to earn the award.
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1604
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 09:23 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yep, the consensus over here is that it is way too early. And personally I'm afraid that it might backfire. But hey...
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6813
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 02:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

While obviously a strong rebuke to the wreck that was the Bush Administration, it is seen as aspirational in encouraging Obama to continue on course.

Equally obvious and predictable , the Righties are apoplectic over it. What else are they capable of?
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1606
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 03:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/11/opinion/11brenner.html?_r=5
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2796
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 04:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Obama fails to win Nobel prize in economics
(Michael Moore, Timothy Geithner also passed over)

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/obama-fails-to-win-nobel-prize-in-economics-200 9-10-12
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10785
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 05:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No, Bob, but at least one of this year's co-winners of the Economics prize is a supporter of Obama's economic policies, and last year's winner argues that Obama has not gone far enough to stimulate the economy.
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 785
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, October 12, 2009 - 06:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

UFB

'nuff said
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10792
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

As if there were any doubt that the prize is political (or that it could be anything but): http://apnews.excite.com/article/20091013/D9BA93381.html
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1616
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yep, no doubt about it. But I do wish people would stop dragging the deadline into this. That date isn't relevant.
 

Robert
Intermediate Member
Username: Okierat

Post Number: 260
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 13, 2009 - 03:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I heard because Obama watched a college football game over the weekend he has been awarded the Heisman, which personally I find hard to believe, because it would take the award away from St. Tebow.

(Message edited by Okierat on October 13, 2009)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6816
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

An AP article from Oslo in today's Cincinnati Enquirer quotes Nobel Committee Chairman Thorjorn Jagland as saying, "Alfred Nobel wrote that the prize should go to the person who has contributed most to the development of peace in the previous year."

Remember, the final decision was not made until shortly before the announcement having little to do with the time of nomination.

Considering the World's only remaining superpower reversed the dreadful direction that the Bush administration afflicted upon it, it is understandable that the committee thought highly of Obama.
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 786
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Glad to see there is peace in Afganistan (sp) and that he reversed Bush's direction there too.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6818
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 14, 2009 - 09:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Great ships are not quickly turned around.
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 787
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Monday, October 19, 2009 - 11:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just like the executive order to shut down Guantanomo.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2830
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 10:48 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Booyah!
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6823
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 01:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Evidently the hole Bush dug was deeper than anyone thought.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10821
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 01:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron and Bob, what are you objecting to?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2832
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 02:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill...how much time do you have?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2834
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Apparently, this news outlet did not get the memo:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040627142700/eastandard.net/headlines/news26060403. htm

Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate

 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6825
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Who would have thought that Bob, of all people, would be a birther!
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2838
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 05:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where is the birth certificate?
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 790
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 05:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/.shared/image.html?/photos/uncategorized/2008/06 /13/bobirthcertificate.jpg

Yes, it's not the original, but it's a valid legal document. I have the same type and was able to get a drivers license with it in Illinois, as well as register with certain government agencies, which I need to do for work.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6826
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 05:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You were born in Kenya too, Kevin?
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 791
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 05:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm surprised Bob hasn't jumped on this yet:
Oba Mao
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10822
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 06:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, some of us still have hope for Obama (he's been in office only nine months), but even if you don't, remember that the country survived eight years each of George W. Bush and Bill Clinton before him. As the song goes, "Meet the new boss..."

The birth certificate red herring is this decade's version of black helicopters in the 1980s and tinfoil helmets in the 1950s.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2839
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 06:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Where is the original? The hospital should have it, and the state should have it on microfilm. When I wrote to the Commonwealth of Virginia for a copy of mine, I got a photo-copy of the original with actual handwriting and signatures. You could even make out the original raised seal. Of course, there was a new raised seal too.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6827
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 07:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good luck with your new status as a "birther," Bob. You will need it . . .
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 788
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

His elevation to a Messiah.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6828
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 08:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If Ron can be a saint, Obama can be the Messiah.
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 726
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 11:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)


Not too easy to read.This is the one from Kenya
Brewzz
 

Ron Siddall
Advanced Member
Username: El_cid

Post Number: 789
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 20, 2009 - 11:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's been 9 months and GITMO is still open ain't it?

BTW - you folks going after the birth certificate? Ain't nothing going to happen that wouldn't have already happened if there was smoke in the kitchen.

Just saying.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10824
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:08 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://nativeborncitizen.wordpress.com/2009/08/02/third-obama-birth-certificate- appears-in-court/
 

Jeff Rankert
Member
Username: Hopfenundmalz

Post Number: 121
Registered: 06-2008
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:46 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My wife pointed out to me that I only had a "Certificate of Live Birth" when I was applying for my first Passport. The County had a fire, and the official document was lost.

After my parents passed away, and we were looking through the things, we found their copy of the original. Boy my feet were tiny.

Then again, I have no desire to run for office.
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 728
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 11:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Please watch the first vid on this link.If this is true,we are all

http://ramparts360.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/the-american-nightmare/
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1623
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 12:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow! We have Birthers on this forum??!! I thought that despite everything, there was a limit to how preposterous our own rightie curmudgeons could get...
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2842
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 02:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

lol...Joakim, We have you and Dan, so why would that surprise you? And to be quite honest...I was merely throwing a grenade into the room...

To me, it doesn't matter where Obama was born. He is simply un-American in his thought process regardless.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10826
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 02:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think it's untrue (and unfair) to call Obama un-American. Un-right wing, yes, but there are many Americans who share some of his thoughts.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6829
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What does "un-American in his thought processes mean, Bob?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2843
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 03:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, Hitler had a lot of followers too.

just kidding...

Tell me which core American value Obama stands for?

(Message edited by brewdudebob on October 21, 2009)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10827
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

For starters, what about the Constitution, the rule of law and the democratic (note the small "d") process?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2844
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 04:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Constitution? Where in the Constitution does it say the Government must bankrupt our economy in order to provide health-care to the masses?

And we are a Representative Republic. Not a democracy. You obviously went to a government school, so I will forgive the oversight.

The democtratic process is supposed to be practiced in the house and senate, is this what you mean?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1009/28531.html

"Towns locks Republicans out, literally"

Where is Obama on this?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6830
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 04:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What "core American value" do you stand for, Bob?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2845
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I asked first.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6831
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 05:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No,Bob. I asked this question first:

What does "un-American in his thought processes" mean, Bob?

and you tried to shift the burden, so I responded in kind.

(Message edited by listermann on October 21, 2009)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10828
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 06:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I admit I am bothered by the term "un-American." For one thing, it has connotations of the demagoguery of Joseph McCarthy in the 1950s. It's a convenient way to smear those with whom you disagree with the suggestion they are less patriotic or hold values at odds with the principles of our form of government.

The United States is a diverse country, with a rather wide range of values. It becomes difficult, and I think self-limiting, to enumerate them all, as if doing so constitutes a litmus test for who is American and who is not. If there is a list, I would argue that it should be more inclusive than exclusive. Perhaps it might be better to suggest what are not American values. I think we would agree that terrorism is un-American, and I would add intolerance to that list.

A majority of Americans elected Barack Obama, and they share the right both to agree and disagree with him on a variety of issues. In just about a year they will have the opportunity to express their opinion in Congressional elections, and in three years once again for the presidency. That's my idea of American values.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 792
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 07:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is that why you live in Canada, Bill?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10829
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 07:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kevin, I'm still a US citizen, and although I was literally born within sight of Canada I lived 55 years of my life (apart from traveling) in the US. I'm still eligible and registered to vote in US elections, and if asked, I define myself as an American.

I also have great respect for (and a few criticisms of) Canada and Canadians, but that's another subject.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 793
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill, I knew that you had lived in the US from your postings to the board--I assumed you were a US citizen. I was just having a little fun, hence the smiley at the end of my question.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2847
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 08:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am bothered by those who are bothered by the term "un-American." Why does that bother you Bill? Are you saying there is no thought process in this world that can be considered "un-American."? Must we include every silly thought and idea from every political and religious construct that has ever been, into one big ball and call it "American"?

Is Sharia Law American? Is Communism American? Is Fascism American? is Monarchy American? Is Socialism American?

There ARE things that deserved to be called un-American. Socialism is one. And in my opinion, Obama is more of a Socialist than anything else. There is a massive amount of evidence to corroborate this, and very very little to refute it. Ignore it at your own peril.

Also, Obama and many on the Left are more interested in making radical and sweeping changes than they are in preserving what it is about America that makes it great. He spends more time going around apologizing to the world for our alleged transgressions than he does reminding them what a great country we are. Oh, wait...he has NEVER done that!

President Barack Hussein Obama...makes me wish we had a President Hillary Rodham Clinton.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6834
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 08:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, so in your mind Obama is a socialist? No doubt because of the medical insurance reform right? Wow, think about it, the rest of the industrialized world is socialistic in your mind - all of them! I won't mention how they all are healthier than we are and do it for far less, but they are socialists - probably closet commies too, just waiting to send you to the Gulag.

Don't you just love "Hussein?"
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2848
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 09:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Un-American:

http://www.cnbc.com/id/33417281

And Dan, If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck....you, however are more of a coot.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6838
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 09:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Golden Rule: "He who has the gold rules."
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10830
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 09:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I think my earlier post made clear my objections to the casual use of the term "un-American." It's a way of smearing those with whom you disagree, an implication of exclusion rather than inclusion.

I agree about Sharia law and monarchy being un-American; the Constitution clearly prohibits both. Communism and fascism are terms with more wide-ranging definitions (and abuses), but in general as they have been applied historically they do seem at odds with American values.

Socialism is another issue. The definition is wide-ranging, and involves which human activities should properly be the responsibility of the individual and which should be undertaken collectively. There are government functions, such as public education and property zoning to give but two examples, that are widely accepted in America but to which strict libertarians nonetheless object.

The role of the government in terms of making health care affordable and available is one of those issues that is open to debate and discussion, especially at the moment. It would appear there will be some form of nearly mandatory insurance enacted. To me it seems extreme to refer to its proponents as "un-American," even if you strongly disagree with them.

Whether Obama is a socialist, and according to what definition, is one more matter of opinion which as Americans we are free to express both here and at the ballot box.

(Message edited by BillPierce on October 21, 2009)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10831
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 09:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, can I move your post about the government's role in salaries of executives at companies that were bailed out? I think it's a different issue that belongs in a separate thread.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2850
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Use it to start a new discussion, but I feel the idea of our President dictating the salaries of private citizens is un-American to the core and therefore relevant to this thread.

Sure the Government gave money to them, but when did they cede their rights as private citizens?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6839
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 09:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Golden Rule.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10834
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 21, 2009 - 10:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ok, then, I'll leave it here. One of my unrelenting interests has been the causes of the current economic crisis, and at some point I intend to make a long post about that subject.

But as for the government's proposed move to limit executive salaries at companies it bailed out, would you not expect the same from the board of directors if a company had received an infusion of cash from an outside investor? That's in effect what occurred when these companies were bailed out. Why isn't it in the interest of the government to protect its investment and ensure that the companies are properly managed?

As I see it, the lack of regulation in the first place led to the current situation, forcing a Hobson's choice of bailing out the economy with huge infusions of money versus watching the world sink into a depression that would have rivaled the 1930s. To have provided the cash without the accompanying regulation seems absurd.

I don't believe anyone in the Obama administration wishes to see the government continue in the insurance and auto manufacturing businesses, for example. We have bet our future that most of these companies will eventually return to profitability and be able to repay the loans. We need to do everything in our power to see that it happens.

It's a very bad situation that never should have been allowed to occur, but it did, and we had to do something about it.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2851
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 02:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill I would feel entirely different if the money was given with stipulations. But it wasn't. It was a handout. Plain and simple. Coming back later and changing the rules after the fact, or in this case, inventing new rules, well that's just un-American.

We are supposed to be a nation of laws. You can't just make things up as you go.
 

marc pullum
Member
Username: Brewinales

Post Number: 109
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 05:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well bob, you've just lost all potential of credibility. sheesh, a "birfer" in our midst.
silly wabbits
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10835
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 10:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So these companies are free to use government money to award large bonuses to their executives for risky behavior that led to their being bailed out, thereby reinforcing the bad behavior? Where's the logic in that?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10836
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 10:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Marc, to quote Bob: "I was merely throwing a grenade into the room..."

(Message edited by BillPierce on October 22, 2009)
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2852
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 11:37 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"So these companies are free to use government money to award large bonuses to their executives for risky behavior that led to their being bailed out, thereby reinforcing the bad behavior? Where's the logic in that?"

Who said it was logical? The burden is on the government to place restrictions and conditions on the bailout money. They didn't do that until the public found out about the continued bonuses and the fancy trips to expensive resorts. The ball was dropped by the government, and the corporations did what corporations do, take advantage when, and while they can.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6841
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 01:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh, those poor incompetent executives, boo, hoo . . .

And what is more American than the "Golden Rule?"
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2188
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I'm going to disagree with you. Until the companies that took OUR tax dollars return those tax dollars to us, I believe we (via the President) have a right to demand a cut in pay to those at the top who obviously are incapable of running a business properly. If those companies want to continue paying their executives too much money then pay the taxpayers back first. Then they are free to get back to throwing away all the money they want.

Dan, you said "I won't mention how they all are healthier than we are and do it for far less" as though their health systems are to credit for other countries being healthier. Did you ever give it even a passing thought that maybe, just MAYBE our country is unhealthy as a whole because we suck at taking care of ourselves (fast food, cigarettes, lack of exercise, etc)? That maybe our health care system isn't completely to blame here?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10837
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Indeed one of the problems with our health care system is that it is focused on diagnosis and treatment rather than prevention. But this is also one of the consequences of the libertarian notion that we should not interfere in the choices (in this case lifestyles) of individuals.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6842
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know, but I have to think that most of the rest of the industrialized world smokes far more than we do, they may well also drink more than we do. Perhaps they eat better, I don't know.

They also drive smaller cars and faster than we do.

(Message edited by listermann on October 22, 2009)
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2189
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Smoke more, yes, especially Europe. I'm really convinced our eating habits are what is destroying our health in this country.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10838
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 22, 2009 - 03:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

European smoking rates vary, from a high of about 40 percent of adults in Russia to approximately 11 percent in Sweden. In the UK the rate is 22 percent, just very slightly above the US rate. Curiously, the country with the lowest smoking rate is Nigeria, at only 6 percent.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2862
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 04:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6848
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 27, 2009 - 05:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

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