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Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2872
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 02:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-offi cials/story?id=9030873


Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda


Army Major in Fort Hood Massacre Used 'Electronic Means' to Connect with Terrorists

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Hasan was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.

One senior lawmaker said the CIA had, so far, refused to brief the intelligence committees on what, if any, knowledge they had about Hasan's efforts.

CIA director Leon Panetta and the Director of National Intelligence, Dennis Blair, have been asked by Congress "to preserve" all documents and intelligence files that relate to Hasan, according to the lawmaker.

On Sunday, Senator Joseph Lieberman (D-CT) called for an investigation into whether the Army missed signs as to whether Hasan was an Islamic extremist.

"If Hasan was showing signs, saying to people that he had become an Islamist extremist, the U.S. Army has to have a zero tolerance," Lieberman told Fox News Sunday.

nvestigators want to know if Hasan maintained contact with a radical mosque leader from Virginia, Anwar al Awlaki, who now lives in Yemen and runs a web site that promotes jihad around the world against the U.S.

In a blog posting early Monday titled "Nidal Hassan Did the Right Thing," Awlaki calls Hassan a "hero" and a "man of conscience who could not bear living the contradiction of being a Muslim and serving in an army that is fighting against his own people."

According to his site, Awlaki served as an imam in Denver, San Diego and Falls Church, Virginia.

The Associated Press reported Sunday that Major Hasan attended the Falls Church mosque when Awlaki was there. The Telegraph of London reported that Awlaki had made contact with two of the 9/11 hijackers when he was in San Diego.

He denied any knowledge of the hijacking plot and was never charged with any crime. After an intensive investigation by the FBI, Awlaki moved to Yemen.

People who knew or worked with Hasan say he seemed to have gradually become more radical in his disapproval of the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6852
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 05:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It is pretty obvious that he was not doing what he did to protest about the quality of the food in the mess . . .
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10913
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, the indications that are beginning to come forth suggest that he was a ticking time bomb that should have been investigated. At the same time, there are thousands of Muslims in the military who perform valuable services as translators, interpreters and liaisons with the local population in places where this is greatly needed and otherwise likely to place even more people in harm's way.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2874
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 08:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"he was a ticking time bomb that should have been investigated"

He WAS investigated. They just didn't DO anything about it. It was political correctness that prevented any action.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6853
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 09:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another statement of the obvious. Hindsight and all that . . .

Evidence of PC or just speculation and assumption?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2875
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 09:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, since you know everything, please tell us why nothing was done about his actions leading up to the massacre. This ought to be good...
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6854
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know, Bob, perhaps the suspicion did not rise to an actionable level, huh? Remember, hindsight, OK?

Now, your evidence that PC suppressed action. This ought to be good . . .

Oh, our oldest knows someone who is a victim, shot in the shoulder.

(Message edited by listermann on November 09, 2009)
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2876
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Don't you find it odd that the media did their damnedest to tell everyone that "this was not terrorism" yet all the evidence that is mounting points squarely in that direction?

He got transferred because he was proselytizing Islam to his psychiatric patients.

He made numerous references to his colleagues that America was the "aggressor" in Muslim countries.

On his profile on an online dating site, he lists his nationality as "Palestinian"

He was under investigation by our own government for reaching out to al Qaeda.

Yet, with all of this, all our media outlets and our buffoon of a President are telling us "not to jump to conclusions"

Here is an article by Ralph Peters of the New York Post that better articulates how P.C. had a hand in allowing this to occur.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/call_this_horror_by_its_name _islamist_HT78Wt6NkWoCGq5HIOwlII#ixzz0WNWcyh7Y
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6855
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 09, 2009 - 11:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Again, hindsight is 20/20. Would a whole lot of people done something differently, you bet'cha!

As for the President, he has to keep in mind that this person will go on trial some day and does not need to think that he could use the comments of the President of the Unites States in his defense. If that is buffoonery, so be it.

What is your plan, Bob, concentration camps?

My son clarified the info about his friend. He was not shot but rather dislocated his shoulder diving for cover.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2877
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 02:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan,

glad your son's friend wasn't shot. You can keep your concentration camps (you Germans have one-track minds)

I prefer to keep chipping away at Islam and expose it for the blood-thirsty death cult that it is. Maybe someday you will see the truth. I doubt that though. You are what muslims call a dhimmi.
 

BrewLogue
New Member
Username: Brewlogue

Post Number: 16
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 04:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Blood-thirsty death cult? Considering there's up to seven million Muslims in this country, if it was simply a blood-thirsty death cult I'd expect near constant violence. What do your Muslim friends think of this characterization?

(Message edited by BrewLogue on November 10, 2009)
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2878
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 11:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If the shoe fits...

I am just waiting for Islam to show the world that it really is a religion of peace...that is if it can go for any recognizable amount of time without a terrorist act committed by it's believers against it's non-believers. I won't be holding my breath.

Weekly Jihad Report Oct 31 - Nov 06

Jihad Attacks: 30

Dead Bodies: 119

Critically Injured: 230

Show me another religion that can have a weekly body-count hung around it's neck.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6856
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I suppose you have forgotten about the Balkan conflict, Bob.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2880
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 02:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No Dan, but apparently you only see one side of the conflict. Here is a short list of Christian Orthodox Churches destroyed or otherwise plundered by our friends the Muslims:

1. The Monastery of the Holy Trinity was built in the 14th century on the Rusinica hill above Musutiste, 2 km to the south. The building, which dated back to the year 1465, housed a valuable collection of manuscripts from 14 th to 18 th centuries. There were also a hand-written apostle from the 14 th century and a collecton of icons from the 19th century-1868-1985. The monastery was plundered, burnt and then levelled with the ground by explosives.

2. The church of the Holy Virgin Odigitriya, in Musutiste, was built as a foundation by Dragoslav, the then chief court governor of the estate, and his family, in 1315, about 10 km to the south-east of Suva Reka. The founder's inscription above the entrance was one of the oldest and most beautiful Serbian epigraphic texts of its kind. It was a building with a semi-dome, an inscribed cross in the ground plan and had a semi-round apse. The wall was built of alternating rows of bricks and stone cubes. The frescoes of the Musutiste School , painted between 1316 and 1320 and famed for their plasticity and the saints' typology were known as the best examples of Serbian art. That earned them a place in the company of other mature artistic works of the Paleologists era from the first quarter of the 14th century. The altar area contained a unique portrait of a South-Slav educator, St Clement of Ohrid. In the north-western corner of the naos there were figures of holy women, the warriors St Theodore Tyre and St Theodore Stratilates, angels, and St Paneteleimon. Two throne icons of Christ and The Holy Virgin dated back to the year 1603. Accompanying items were plundered, burnt and consequently mined.

3. The medieval monastery of St Mark of Korisa used to stand on a rocky outpost above the Korisa river, 3 km southeast of the village of Korisa . The church was built in 1467 with a single-nave, a rectangular foundation and a preserved fragment of the original, ancient fresco. On the western side, above the rock, a belfry with two bells was added in 1861 thus becoming a foundation of Sima Andrejevic Igumanov. In April 1941, the Kabasani Shqiptars forcibly tore out the bells and repeatedly desecrated and vandalized the founder's grave. The monastery housed a major book collection. It was robbed and burnt prior to having been completely destroyed by explosives.

4. The monastery of St Archangel Gabriel, also known under the names of Binac and Buzovik, was built in the 14th century. It was located some 4-5 km south of Vitina, at the spring of the river Susica. The church had a rectangular foundation, a semi-round apse and a semi-cylindrical vault. There were two layers of frescoes, one on top of each other. The newer layer, from the 16th century, showed archbishops at liturgy. In 1867 Albanians slaughtered the priest. After that the monastery stood abandoned only to be renewed at the beginning of the 20th century. A number of the 14th century liturgical vessels were kept in the church. The Monastery was first looted and set on fire. On September 13 the monastery church was completely destroyed by explosive.

5. Devic monastery -Drenica (south of Srbica)- the church of the Presentation of the Holy Virgin was built around the year 1434 by the Despot Djuradj Brankovic to commemorate his daughter Devica's recovery from an illness and was named after her. (The name Devica is congruent with the word devica, which means virgin). It was built on the original site where St Joannicius's, the first founder, small church once stood. The monastery was restored on several occasions and consisted of a number of churches dedicated to the Presentation of The Holy Virgin, St Joannicius and St George. The monastery used to have four churchs that, together with the konaks (residential quarters), were looted, desecrated, mined and destroyed by the Shqiptars terrorists in 1941 when the Italians occupied Kosmet. The monastery used to house a rich collection of manuscripts and printed books. There was also a scriptorium within the monastery complex. The entire ancient, as well as the 19th and 20th century, Devic books, including the iconostasis with icons, were lost in a fire. At the same time the recluse of St Joannicius of Devic, on the hill north of the monastery, was wrecked as was the spring in a ravine below the monastery. The frescoes dated from the 15th century. Beside the portrait of St Joannicius of Devic, clad in a senior monk's robes and bearing a preserved inscription which indicates that he was "the first founder of the place" preserved were also an image of St Akakios and the compositions of The Wedding in Kana, Galilee and The healing of the Infirm. There was also another layer of frescoes from the 15th century, as well as one from the 19th century. The monastery owned the lands in Lausa, Ludovic, Lepina in Kosovo, Bica in Metohija, a vineyard in Velika Hoca, a number of houses and shops in Vucitrn, watermills, residential quarters, a bakery, a dairy……60 hectares of arable land and 250 hectares of forest in total. In the morning twilight on 15th June 1991 , neighbours until recently, the self-proclaimed UCK, barged into this shrine. The horror that the nuns and their spiritual guide, Fr Seraphim, were put through lasted two days. The monastery was vandalized, desecrated and looted.

6. The Monastery of St Uros, with the Church of the Ascension of The Holy Virgin, was built by the Empress Helen at the end of the 14th century, uphill and west of Gornje Nerodimlje, in the small village of Sarenik . In 1647-49 Patriarch Paisios bequeathed the manuscript of the hagiography of the Emperor Uros to the monastery. The monastery was mined and destroyed.

7. The Monastery and the Church of St Archangels , in Gornje Nerodimlje, were built in the 14th century and renewed in the year 1700. The monastery was burnt and looted. 7.1. A giant black pine tree, planted in 1336 by Tsar Dusan himself, was cut down and burnt. 7.2. The cemetery was desecrated and the tombstones were knocked over and vandalized.

8. The new church of St Nicholas of the Summer, in Gornje Nerodimlje, was built on the ancient foundations in 1983. It was a single-nave building with an altar apse and a smallish dome. In front of it, facing west, there stood a one-hundred-years-old oak tree where the congregation used to gather even in the times when the church was in ruins. The church was vandalized, burnt and mined.

9. The Church of St Stephen In Donje Nerodimlje, in the river Nerodimka valley, 5 km west of Urosevac from the 14th century, renewed in 1996. It was vandalized, burnt and finally mined in summer 1999, after the war and NATO deployment.

10. The monastery church of The Holy Virgin (also known as the Holy Innocent) was built in Dolac near Klina. The church was a single-nave building, rectangular at the foundations, with a semi-cylindrical vault and a semi-round apse. Two layers of frescoes were preserved. The more recent one dated from 1620 while the older, found underneath, was from the 14th century. These were roughly restored, especially those found in the lower zone of the southern wall. Fragments of an old fresco were known for their very fine drawings and colour nuance. Similar features could be found in the later date fresco, dating from the 17th century. This church was believed to be older than Decani and to have been built four years before the Battle of Kosovo (1389). A precious Evangelical Book with Four Gospels from 14th-15th century and an Oktoih for I-IV voices from the 15th century were once housed in Dolac. The church, with the holy throne being pulled down and the whole place set on fire, was consequently mined and destroyed by explosives.

11. The church of St Nicholas , in the village of Slovinje near Lipljan, was built in the 16th century, pulled down in the 19th century and renewed in 1996. On 17th July 1999 it was levelled to the ground by explosives.

12. The new church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul was built in 1938, on the eastern outskirts of the town of Suva Reka . It had a dome and a belfry. The church was first plundered, vandalized and then razed to the ground on 19th July 1999 , at 1 a.m.

13. The church of the Holy Trinity in the village of Petric , on the Pec-Pristina road, was built as a foundation of the Karic Brothers in 1992. The church was looted, dynamited and razed to the ground with explosives.

14. The church of the Presentation of The Holy Virgin, in Bijelo Polje near Pec, was built in the 16th century and restored in 1868 under the auspices of the Empress of Russia, Maria Alexandrovna. A collection of ancient icon, books and liturgical vessels was kept in the monastery among which particularly stood out a 15th-16th century Italo-Cretan icon of The Holy Virgin with Christ.

15. The cathedral church of Holy King Uros , in the city of Urosevac , was built between 1929 and 1933, to the designs of the architect from Skopje , Josif Mihailovic. The icon collection, belonging to the medieval period of Serbian icon painting, also included the 1896 Holy Trinity icon painted by the zoographer Josif Radevic from Lazaropolje. The church had votive discos from 1909, a censer and several bells donated by the women of Kragujevac in 1912. The church was vandalized and the interior was burnt.

16. The church of St Elijah in Vucitrn, was built in the year 1834 on the eastern outskirt of the city, at the site where some previously buried holy relics had been discovered. The wall paintings were made in 1871, by the zoographer Blaza Damnjanovic from Debar. The church was looted, vandalized and partially burnt.

17. The church of St John the Baptist, in Samodreza near Vucitrn, entered the legends as "the white church of Samodreza " in which saint King Lazar gave Holy Communion to the Serbian knights on the eve of the Battle of Kosovo (1389). The new church, made from blocks of white marble and to the designs of A. Deroko and P.Popovic, professors of Belgrade University , was erected on the foundations of an old church, in 1932. The famous poet and painter Zivorad Nastasijevic painted the frescoes in the new church in the same year. The Shqiptars desecrated the church and damaged the frescos in 1981. The church was first vandalized, then burnt and finally destroyed.

18. The Church of St Paraskeva , in Drsnik near Pec, was at one time devoted to St Nicholas. It was a single-nave building, of rectangular foundation, with a semi-cylindrical vault. There was a semi-round apse facing east. The church had a gable roof covered in stone slates. The wall consisted of irregular layers of stone and plaster. The old frescoes were considerably damaged. The church was restored during the seventh decade of the 16th century. Preserved was an icon from that period, remarkable for its fine drawing and strong colours. The technique was good and in spite of constant rain and snow, as well as other mishaps that they had been exposed to, the frescoes retained their quality rather well. Two marble crosses were elaborately dressed and placed on the eastern and western roof vertices respectively. The church was vandalized and the inside was burnt.

19. The Church of The Holy Virgin , in the village of Naklo near Pec, was built in 1985, later demolished and burnt.

20. The Church of the Holy Trinity, in the village of Velika Reka near Vucitrn, was built as a foundation of Dimitrije Ljiljak in 1997 to the designs of the architect Ljiljana Ljiljak. The church was vandalized, burnt and almost completely destroyed.

21. The Church of St Apostles in Petrovac, near Kosovska Kamenica, was vandalized and burnt.

22. The Church of The Holy Virgin , in the village of Podgorce near Vitina, was new. It was consecrated in 1996, but vandalized and burnt afterwards.

23. The Church of the Conception of St John the Baptist with three bells, was finished in 1998 as a Rajovic's family foundation in Pecka Banja. The architect Ljubisa Folic made the designs. The church was demolished and the interiors burnt.

24. The Church of The Holy Virgin in Djurakovac, from 1997, was vandalized.

25. The Holy Trinity Cathedral in Djakovica was completed in 1999 on the foundations of a five-dome memorial church. The old church was built to serve as a mausoleum and the place of final rest for all those killed, murdered and frozen to death in the wars of 1912-1918. It was completed in 1940 but in 1949, on St Sava's Day it was destroyed by the infidel. On the very spot, fifty years on, the same destiny befell a new church, which was first desecrated, then set ablaze, mined and finally completely destroyed on 24/25 July 1999. The Djakovica church was one of the most beautiful newly built churchs where a continuum with Knez Lazar's medieval architectural style had been successfully established. The architect Ljubisa Folic designed the project.

26. The Church of St Nicholas - Nikoljaca stands in a hilly meadow, in the old Serbian village of Osojane in the river Kujavce valley, 8 km southeast of Istok. The name of the village is mentioned in King Milutin's charter to Banjska Monastery in 1314. The Devic katastich ("letter" to the monastery) from 1761-79 lists all Serb donators. Desecrated.

27. The Church of the Holy Prophet Elijah in Bistrazin was built between the two world wars on the foundations of a much older church from partially chiselled stone and had a belfry facing west. In April 1941 the Shiqptars burnt and vandalized it. In 1991 the church was restored but now is totally destroyed.

28. The Church of St Demetrios in Siga, near Pec, was restored in 1937 on the foundations of an old church, which had an added narthex and was believed to have been older than Decani. An ancient upright candleholder, made of wrought iron, was found in it. In WW2 Kosovo Albanian Nazis vandalized the church and now in July 1999 the Albanian extremists completely destroyed it.

29. The Church of St Elijah in the village of Zegra , near Gnjilane, was built in 1931. It was demolished and later completely burnt (the roof caved in). Two other church buildings were also set ablaze. Crosses and tombstones at the cemetery were wrecked.

30. The Church of St Cosma and Damian in the village of Novake , near Prizren, was restored in 1991. Now stands vandalized and burnt. Mining attempts were carried out. Graves around the church were desecrated.

31. The Church of the Presentation of The Holy Virgin, in Veliko Krusevo near Pec, (ancient, restored), was broken into and partially burnt.

32. The 14th century Zociste Monastery, 5 km southeast of Orahovac, dated back to the days of the Nemanjic self-governing state. The Church of the Holy Physicians Cosma and Damian (also known by the name "Coinless" because they charged no fee for curing the ill) had a semi-round vault and a wide narthex. The preserved frescoes, especially one of a prophet's bust, belonged to the 12th -14th century monumental style of painting. Contained a valuable collection of icons, books (The Zociste menaion from the 15th century), and liturgical vessels. The double door of the iconostasis was known for their exceptional beauty. The monastery was looted, demolished and mined; the konaks burnt.

33. Church of St John in Grmovo, 4 km west of Vitina. First set ablaze and then completely demolished by explosives, on 25 July 1999.

34. The Church of St Nicholas, in the village of Kijevo in Prekoruplje, 15 km south-east of Klina. The single-nave building, with a semi-round vault and semi-circle apse, was built in 14th century. The added spacious narthex was painted in 1602. Among the valuables were three 17th century censer, nine icons from the second half of the 16th century among which was the icon of the Holy Apostle Thomas with a very rare representation of his standing figure - a scene from his hagiography. The church used to house an extremely valuable collection of hand written books. The belfry was added in the 19th century. Now it is completely razed to the ground. The cemetery crosses and tombstones were wrecked.

35. The Church of St Evangelist Mark, in Klina (Metohija), was erected on the foundations of the old church of the Presentation of The Holy Virgin. Destroyed by explosive.

36. The Church of St Nicholas, in the village of Ljubizda near Prizren, was built in the 16th century and renewed in 1867. The Galicia zoographer Vasilije Krstic of the famous Daskalovic-Djinovski family from Dabar painted the interior. The single-nave building had a semi-round vault and an extended narthex. The icons from the neighbouring church buildings, destroyed earlier, among which was the 14th century double icon of The Annunciation and the Meeting of Joachim and Ann, were brought over to this church. The double door in the iconostasis dated back to the 16th century. The church used to house bells, a processional icon of the Mother of God with an artistically embroidered linen cloth 7-8m long, a wooden chalice, books, throne icons, triptych-icon, octagonal choir space with mother-of-pearl incrustations, a copper baptistery, a filigree cross with an inscription from the 19th century. Looted, vandalized, burned inside and finally mined.

37. The Church of the Holy Prophet Elijah in Ljubizda, 4 km north-east of Prizren and in the country of the same name. Restored in 1979, on the 16th century foundations. Today stands looted, burnt on the inside and mined. The cemetery around it was desecrated.

38. The Church of St Parasceva, in the village of Dobrcane, 10 km east of Gnjilane and on the road to Kamenica, was built after World War I. Now stands burnt, with the caved in roof.

39. The Cathedral Church of Christ the Savior in Pristina (new), is a single-dome building with the ground plan in the form of an inscribed cross and a trefoil. Its typological definition, an edifice of central type, was already known in the earliest period of the Middle Ages, especially during the Byzantine epoch. Being dressed from a cube, and having very precise measurements, it achieved monumental, humane and purposeful shape both outside and inside. The author of the project was Spasoje Krunic. Albanian extremists at first made attempts to burn it but later, at 1 a.m. on 1 August 1999, four explosive devices were planted out of which two remained unexploded.

40. The Church of St Elijah was built in 1994 in the village of Smac, in a field near Prizren, 10 km north of the city. It was built as a foundation for Zivko Djordjevic by the conservationist Milosav Lukic. The church was burnt, vandalized and mined inside. Not all planted explosive devices went off.

41. The Church of St Basil the Great was built in 1863, in the village of Srbica near Prizren, on a slope facing south among eight ancient oak-trees and on the ruins of a much older church. This was a single-nave building that housed a collection of icons and books from the 18th and 19th centuries. Burnt and then destroyed.

42. The Church of St Parasceva, in the village of Zaskok near Urosevac, was mined and completely destroyed.

43. The Church of St Nicholas was once in the village of Gatnja (Urosevac), east of today's Gornja Mahala. The new church, which was built on the old foundations in 1985, was looted, vandalized and destroyed by dynamite.

44. The Church of the Holy Virgin stood in the valley bellow the village of Donje Nerodimlje, on a little hill known as Glavica. It was erected in 1925 on the remaining foundations of an older church known by the same name. Albanians forcibly entered it, desecrating the relics. The church was vandalized and then destroyed.

45. The Church of St Elijah, in the village of Nekodim 2 km southeast of Urosevac, built on the old foundations, was refurbished and expanded in 1975. Vandalized and set on fire.

46. The Church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul was erected in Talinovac 2km north of Urosevac. Vandalized and the interiors completely burnt. The cemetery around it was demolished.

47. The Church of the Holy Trinity was built in the village of Babljak, 8 km north of Urosevac. The villagers who added a beautiful belfry in 1966 restored the old church. Vandalized and the inside was set ablaze.

48. The Church of the Birth of The Holy Virgin, in the village of Softovic, 6 km northeast of Urosevac, was erected between the two world wars. Desecrated and burnt down.

49. The Church of the Holy Prophet Elijah in Kacanik, built in 1929, successfully presented a harmonious continuum of proportions and facade styles noticeable in Kalenic and Gracanica. The church, built on a square foundation, had a ground plan in the shape of a single cross, spacious trefoil apses and a dome. Three layers of bricks and dressed stones were used for the facade that was decorated with archivolts that had coronas made of notched bricks. Windows had engraved rosettes. The crosses on the dome and above the portal respectively, made of dressed stone, bear the characteristics of the Moravska School. Visible are also richly decorated rosette and archivolts above the entrance. Patriarch Varnava, while still a Serb metropolitan, presented the church with a bell. Milan Korunic, Serbian architect from the first half of the 20th century, designed the project.

50. The Church of the Holy Virgin once stood in the easternmost part of the village Korisa near Prizren. The church was a single-dome building covered with large stone tiles. The apse contained a painting that stylistically belonged to the 16th -17th century. The remains of the frescoes were rather well preserved, except for the fresco of The Holy Mother with Christ that was riddled with bullets fired by the Shqiptar infidel. The church also housed the 19th century icons and liturgical vessels. Both the church and the old church base were levelled with the ground. The cemetery, too, was destroyed.

51. The Church of St Jeremiah in Grebnik was built in 1920 on the base of the ancient church in the place known as Kucine. The Devic katastich from 1765-76 acknowledges Serbs as donators. Around the church were several-hundred-years-old oak-trees and an ancient cemetery. The church was razed to the ground and the terrain was bulldozed over.

52. The Church of St Prince Lazar was erected in 1969 in the village of Kos, on the left bank of the river Kujavca, 12 km south-east of Istok. St Stephan's Charter, granted by King Milutin in 1314, mentions the name of the village. The Devic katastich from 1761 to 1780 refers to the Kosani Serbs as benefactors. Stone crosses and tombstones from the old cemetery were wrecked, the church door smashed and the interior vandalized.

53. The Holy Trinity Church in Zitinje, near Vitina, was built in1980, on the foundations of an old Church of The Holy Virgin. The villagers had a bell and a new iconostasis made. During the restoration an old and damaged inscription was discovered within the ruins of the old church and was built into the new edifice. The 16th century katastichos of the Holy Trinity Monastery in Musutiste (1) has the names of all benefactors from this village.

54. The Church of St Parasceva was an old, restored sanctuary in the vicinity of the Serb village of Klokot. The place, 6 km north of Vitina, is known for its springs of mineral water and a spa of the same name. Its name is mentioned in the Knez Lazar Charter to the Ravanica Monastery from the year 1381. The church interior was burnt and on 27 July 1999 it was mined.

55. The Church of St Lazarus near the river Belicnica in the village of Belica in Kujavca, 13 km southeast of Istok, was built in the 14th century and underwent several restorations throughout the 16th, 17th, 18th and 20th centuries (1966-68). Lazarica was a single-nave and vaulted church with the remains of the narthex in its front. Around the church are the old and the new cemeteries. The church was robbed and burnt.

56. The Church of the Holy Prophet Elijah in Pomazatin, on the left bank of the river Drenica and 12 km west of Pristina, was erected in 1937. Pulled down in 1941 but renewed in 1964. During 1982-1985 the doors and windows were wrecked. The roof and the interiors were burnt. Parts of it destroyed by mines.

57. The 14th century Church of St George, in Rudnik near Srbica, was restored in the 16th century during the reign of Patriarch Makarije Sokolovic. Frescoes date from the same period. East of the church is a few-hundred-years-old mulberry-tree, planted from a seedling which St Sava had brought from Zion. The church was destroyed by explosives.

58. The Holy Trinity Church in Donji Ratis near Decani was old and underwent restoration in 1935. Shqiptars destroyed it in 1941 but it was renewed in 1992. Seven attacks were launched on it between 1996 and 1998. It was burnt and completely destroyed with explosive devices.

59. The Church of the Holy Apostle Luke was erected in 1912, in Vitomirica 5 km northeast of Pec. It was built from Banjska marble, in the shape of a trefoil, with one dome. The Montenegro army liberated these parts from the Turks on Lucindan (the day of St Luke), in 1912. There is a nicely looked after village cemetery near the church. Today the church stands vandalized and set on fire inside.

60. The Church of St Elijah in Podujevo was built on the Merdjez hill in 1930. During World War II Kosovo Albanian Nazis destroyed the dome and desecrated the church. Renewed on several occasions. Restoration works were completed in 1971. Vandalized and burnt inside.

61. The Church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul, "King's Church" stands on the Kraljevica hill, in the village of Gornja Pakastica some 20 km away from Podujevo. The foundation, which dated from the 14th century, was King Milutin's endowment. The new church, built in 1925 on the old foundations, now stands vandalized and partially burnt.

62. The Cemetery chapel (paracclesion) was built on the foundations of an old church at the present-day Serb cemetery in Kosovska Mitrovica, at the exit from the city. Crosses and tombstones were vandalized and the chapel damaged inside.

63. The Church of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul was built in 1929, in Istok, in the river valley. The iconostasis was built with the kind help of Patriarch Varnava. During World War II (1943-1944) the church, as well as the parochial building, served as a prison in which Albanian Nazis kept Serbs from Istok, Dragoljevci, Kovrani and many other villages interned and had them sent on to working camps in Albania and on Italian islands. Today the church is burnt and desecrated.

64. The Church of St Nicholas in Prizren is the same church that Tsar Dusan bequeathed to the Monastery of St Archangel in 1348. It was the endowment of a Prizren nobleman Rajko Kirizlic whose son's name, Bogdan, is mentioned in 1361 and 1368. The church was in service until 1795 when Mahmud-pasha Busatlija looted it. Restored in 1857. The church treasured the oldest Prizren icon of The Holy Virgin Odigitriya from the mid-14th century as well as the 16th century icon of St Elijah in the Cave. It was mined with twenty explosive devices, out of which five went off. Considerable damage was made to this shrine.

65. The Church of the Holy Saviour in Dvorani was erected near Musutiste, at the foot of Mount Rusnica, some 7 km southeast of Suva Reka. The katastichon of the Holy Trinity Monastery acknowledged the Dvorani Serbs as the benefactors. A 1603 icon bore a donators' inscription. Mined and destroyed.

66. The Church of St Elijah stands in the village of Lokvice at the eastern foot of Mount Cvilen, 8 km east of Prizren. It was built on the foundations of an older church, in 1866. It houses an 18th century icon collection. Mentioned by King Dragutin (1276-1282), King Milutin, 1308 and Tsar Dusan, 1348. Mined after the deployment of German KFOR troops.

67. The Church of Holy Knez Lazar stands at the Serb cemetery in Piskote, near Djakovica. The single-dome church was built between 1991-1994 to the designs of the architect Ljubisa Folic. It is partially demolished. The parochial home was burnt.

68. The Church of St Petka stood once in Binac, 4 km south of Vitina. The new church was built on the old foundations at the cemetery, in 1973. The terrorist KLA destroyed it with explosives.

69. The Church of St Parasceva stands in Gojbulja, at the foot of Mount Kopaonik, 3 km northeast of Vucitrn. The new church was built at the village cemetery, on the remains of an ancient, 1-2 m high wall, in August 1986. The preserved arch, which vaulted the western narthex, was added, too. The church had a rectangular ground plan, a semi-round apse and a smallish narthex. The old walls had traces of fresco plaster on them. There are also the remains of an old Serb cemetery from the first half of the 18th century. Desecrated.

70. The Church of St Nicholas stands in Stimlje, 29 km southwest of Pristina, at the foot of mount Crnoljeva and at the intersection of the Prizren, Urosevac and Lipljan roads. In the eastern part of Stimlje, on the foundations of an old Serb cemetery church a new one was built in 1926. East of the church there are three tombstones, each over 250 years old. In the 19th century there was an active Serb school in the churchyard. The church was desecrated.

71. The church of St Archangel, on a hill above Stimlje, was built between 1920-1922 on the foundations of an older church. It was dedicated to Serbia's World War I warriors. The church was built by "Knjeginja Ljubica" (Princess Ljubica) association to the designs of Serbia's first female architect, Jelisaveta Nacic. The artist Uros Predic painted the frescoes of St Sava and Stevan Nemanja. Next to the church was a hospice for orphaned girls. The church was thoroughly renovated in 1977. Today stands desecrated.

72. The Church of the Holy Saviour stands in Meciceva Mahala in the Prizren County, at the foot of Mount Ikona, 11 km southeast of Suva Reka. Looted and burnt.

73. The Church of St Parasceva lies west of the village of Musutiste. Robbed and burnt.

74. The Church of St Archangel, in Musutiste. Set on fire and partially destroyed by local Albanians, in summer 1999, after KFOR deployment.

75. Kosovo Battle Memorial, built on the site of the famous Kosovo battle in 1389 when the Christian Serb Prince Lazar fought the Ottoman Moslem Army of Sultane Murad. This monument was many times in its history been desecrated by Albanians. The extremists seriously damaged by explosive the interior of the tower and destroyed the Serb inscriptions and crosses on the facade.

76. The Church of St. Nicolas in Gornji Zakut village near Podujevo. The church was destroyed by explosive on November 8, 1999 when the British KFOR decided to remove the constant guard which was posted in front of the church in summer.

77. The church of St. Eliah in Cernica village near Gnjilane. The church was destroyed by the Kosovo Albanian extremists on January 14th, 2000, on the day when Orthodox Serbs celebrate the Julian Calendar New Year. US KFOR troops were just 50 meters from the church in time of explosion. The perpertrators have not yet been arrested as well as not in a single other case of destruction.

78. The church of St. Nicholas in Banjska village near Vucitrn. The church was seriously damaged by Albanian extremists on January 30, 2000, just after the Arabian Emirates KFOR withdrew their guard in front of the church. The altar area is alsmost completely destroyed by a strong blast.

79. The church of St. Parasceva in Grncar village near Vitina The church was destroyed by Albanian extremists on Good Friday, April 28, in the morning, before the service.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10918
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, are you seeking to reignite the ethnic and religious violence of the Balkan wars?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6857
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 03:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, don't forget the genocide!
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2881
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 04:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill,

as I recall, Dan brought it up.

And Dan,

I won't forget the Genocide. As of today the tally is 14,359 people killed by Muslim extremists since 9/11. Islam...it's like the Energizer Bunny...the jihad just keeps going and going and going
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6858
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 04:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are you avoiding the Christian genocide against the Muslims in the Balkans?
 

BrewLogue
New Member
Username: Brewlogue

Post Number: 17
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 07:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,

I can show you almost 7 million Muslims that will tell you that their religion is a religion of peace. I had the good fortune to grow up in Southern California in a city that, at the time, claimed to be the most ethnically diverse city in the US. And guess what? Lots of Muslim friends! One of my best friends in jr. high and high school is a Muslim and, naturally, so were his parents. They were very good to me! I could sleep over, get a ride to dances, get picked up from the mall, hang out over there and it was just about as American as any other family. My friend's father owned a couple of Pizza Hut chains and paid his taxes, loved his wife and kids, didn't break the law, and also just happened to be a Muslim. That's just one family who I happened to be very close to.

I had many other Muslim friends and classmates growing up, and many more that I met in college. I now have a pretty cool Muslim co-worker. NONE of these people remotely support jihad. NONE are violent. There are even politically conservative Muslims:

http://muslimrepublicans.net/Article.asp?ID=148

I bring this up because my Muslim co-worker is a Republican and supports our efforts overseas. What happened at Fort Hood is horrific. It's terrible. It's inexcusable. And many, many Muslims feel the same way.

And you can ask them how they feel. If you don't have any Muslim friends, just take some time and wander into your nearest mosque. I just called the Islamic Center of Southern California and spoke to a guy who's name happened to be Jihad. He was very nice. Anyone can attend a prayer service and just observe, off to the side, and then hang out after and chat with an Imam. Or just hang out at your local Halal place. If it's anything like mine, the lamb kabobs will be awesome.

It's too bad Muslims don't drink, because it would be nice to have some around here that can show you that the vast, vast, vast majority of American Muslims are peace-loving fellow countrymen who hate the violence as much as us non-Muslims do.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6860
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This tragedy has an opportunity to it. The Western world seems to be governed largely by guilt, while the Eastern world uses shame to control its people. No doubt the Muslim community feels deep shame over this event. If we can refrain from attacking them as a group, which would cause them to get defensive, they might be able to better control their radical fringes.

So much for pop psychology!
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2882
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not at all, but there were no god guys in the Balkans, and there were plenty of Christians getting slaughtered by Muslims as well, war is hell. It was unfortunate the US got involved over there at all.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6861
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

We did so with zero combat deaths. It is a pity that did not translate to Iraq and Afghanistan.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2883
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BrewLogue,

I am sure you can show me 7 million Muslims that will TELL me that their religion is a religion of peace. But those are just words. I would like to see 1.66 billion of them actually prove it.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6862
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, you seem to have two choices. Advocate genocide for all Muslims, or just continue to whine about them. If you see another alternative, please let us know, I find both of the above abhorrent.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2884
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, you are sure hung up on genocide. What is it about you Germans and your obsessions with genocide?
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1631
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 08:53 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, you really are a frightened little boy.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6863
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I want to see solutions, not whining. Genocide is a solution, what do you have?
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2885
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I provided a solution Dan. I want Islam to prove it is a religion of peace.

Joakim, you are a Dhimmi.
 

BrewLogue
New Member
Username: Brewlogue

Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,

I think that one proves that one is peaceful by being peaceful. If all 1.66 billion Muslims are violent, than we should expect to see at least 1.66 billion violent acts.

If you and I are having a conversation and you say that you don't condone murder, and I say "Prove it", how can you prove it any more than being a person that has not murdered, will not murder, and condemns the act of murder?

Such is the difficulty of proving a negative.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2886
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

BrewLogue, if there are 1.66 million peace-loving Muslims, where is their opposition to those who would defile their peace-loving religion? If Bin Laden and his ilk "hi-jacked" Islam and twisted it's message, why are they so silent? With numbers like that on your side, certainly there must be one voice in the wilderness who can out-shine violent Jihad. Wouldn't you think?
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2192
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 09:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Despite the fact I owe Bob a dig for an earlier unrelated snipe, I'm going to comment here.

Seriously guys, I think any reasonable person would agree that not all Muslims are terrorists, that's not even close to the truth and I think that's been pretty well established.

However, think about what percentage of terrorist acts in the last 10-20 years are performed by Muslim extremists compared to those that aren't? Be honest now.
 

BrewLogue
New Member
Username: Brewlogue

Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2008
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob,

I typed "Islam Condemn Fort Hood" into google and found quite a few articles where Muslims were very vocal in their condemnation. It was the very first thing that I typed, and I'm sure I could find many more articles that echo the sentiment. You can easily do the same.

Mike,

If I were to graph acts of terrorism and their perpetrators over the last 10-20 years, I would bet I would see a large spike among Muslims. I'm certainly not denying that some Muslims are terrorists. It would be absurd to do so.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6864
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I provided a solution Dan. I want Islam to prove it is a religion of peace."

That is not a solution, that is a goal. A solution is how to get to the goal. Try again.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2887
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 10:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike,

I do not think all Muslims are terrorists...just the vast majority.

BrewLogue,

Goody for you. You found some obscure articles. Maybe someday they will not be as obscure.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2888
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 11:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry Dan. Either it is a religion of peace, or it isn't.
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1632
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 10, 2009 - 11:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, you complete tit. You think the vast majority of muslims are terrorists? How utterly retarded is it possible to get? Do you have any idea what our world would look like if the "vast majority" of one and a half billion people were terrorists?

You take the extreme actions of a small fraction of a religion, and tar the whole group. Really constructive. Say, did your grandfather wear a white sheet? He MUST have, since you live in the South, and EVERYBODY knows that southerners are inbred racists? Right? See what I just did there?

Oh, and "Either it is a religion of peace, or it isn't". How precious! As if every Christian interpreted the Bible the same way. Or every Hindu does the Baghavadghita.

You want to discuss this as an adult, or do you just want to throw your little tantrum like a spoiled kid?

And what's with this childish assertion that you need muslims all over the world to decry actions that they had nothing to do with? Did you raise your voice in international media when the IRA bombed civilians in London? Or when Palestinians in Sabra and Shatila were massacred by falangists? Or when muslim civilians in Bosnia were massacred by Christian Serbs? No? Then you sir are a world class hypocrite. Not very surprising, mind you.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 10919
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 03:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Joakim, as is probably true of a majority of people in the Atlanta area, Bob grew up elsewhere (Wisconsin) and moved South. I would say he is to the right of most Southerners. After all, Jimmy Carter is from Georgia.

Bob, calling most Muslims terrorists is an extreme act of hyperbole. I will acknowledge as fact what Mike pointed out about the majority of international terrorist incidents in the past 10 years being associated with radical Islam. But that hardly means that the majority of Muslims are terrorists or even endorse terrorism.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2889
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 03:54 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Holy crap. How stupid are you Joakim? If I am a complete tit, you are a bodacious rack of 55 HHH's. Even a 5 year old can detect sarcasm. I even used the rolling eyes icon to make the point. Moron.

And Bill, you too are showing signs of intellectual density to bite on Joakim's ignorant rant. Of course it was hyperbole, and SARCASM.
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1633
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 10:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

There's an art to sarcasm, Bob. You haven't mastered it.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2891
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I guess you told me.
 

brewer of beer
Junior Member
Username: Brewbeer22

Post Number: 80
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 03:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't see the automatic connection between religion and criminal acts of violence we label "terrorism", although I can certainly understand why some people think there is an automatic connection. Human history is chock full of criminal acts of violence committed on one another. I would even suggest that a sizable fraction of the acts were motivated or justified by one religion or another. I don’t know if anyone has been keeping score over the past 2000 years, but I would hazard a guess that Christianity is well ahead of Islam in the totality of violent criminal acts perpetrated against so-called “non-believers”.

I think as a nation and as a collective society having “western” belief systems, we place far too much emphasis on criminal acts of violence committed in the name of religion. To label these violent acts as “terrorism” or “Islamic” gives too much credibility to what they really are, which are nothing more than criminal acts of violence. Such “religious” labeling slanders all the good that God stands for, and generates anxiety and hatred, which provides motivation on a large scale to certain portions of our society to justify the commission of additional criminal acts of violence against others who might share some commonality to the original criminals perpetrating the violence in the first place.

There a six billion people in the world. With this many people, it is a foregone conclusion that a few of these people will act out in a violent and anti social manner. What sometimes amazes me is that with huge number of people in the world, and our historical propensity for committing violent acts against one another, that there isn’t more violence in the world.

The world has never experienced a period of time when so much of humanity lived in relative peace and prosperity than the period we currently live in right now. I am not saying it is perfect; we are far, far from that. However, western society is extremely prosperous and extremely strong. The criminals who perpetrate violence against us know that they can’t destroy us, as we are too strong. They know that the best they can do, is to motivate us to respond to their violence disproportionately, such that we ultimately bankrupt ourselves, both morally and fiscally. They also know that if they can motivate us to hatred, they can weaken us enough to make us vulnerable to self-destruction.

The bottom line for me is that those who motivate and incite violence, those who stand for hatred, those who stand for responding to violence with violence, serve the desires of Satan (or if you prefer, “the dark side”). Satan/the dark side seeks to destroy all the good that humanity has managed to accomplish in these recent times. To paraphrase a great teacher, “those who live by the sword, shall die by the sword.” Truer words have never been said.

The lesson is crystal clear for all who wish to see and believe: if we let the criminal acts of a few people incite us to hatred and violence, we will destroy ourselves. If we choose to love one another, and take an appropriate, measured response to those who exhibit antisocial behavior, we can marginalize and discourage antisocial behavior, and draw humanity closer to “salvation”.

The world is big and there is plenty of room for disagreement. However, anger and hatred are bigger than all of us. I hope that the entire world in general and this brewing community in particular, chooses to turn away for anger and hatred in our responses to differences of opinion.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6865
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 03:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Sorry Dan. Either it is a religion of peace, or it isn't."

The old bimodal thinking demonstrated again.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 2303
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 03:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

brewer of beer, not only do I agree with every point you make 100%, I also think your post was about the most beautifully worded response I've seen in this forum for several years. Thank you.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2892
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 04:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, it figures you would find no holes in Brewer of Beer's silly argument. It fits the liberal construct. "Christians bad...everyone else good" Western Civilization bad...anything non-Western good" The self-loathing liberal knows no bounds.

"I would hazard a guess that Christianity is well ahead of Islam in the totality of violent criminal acts perpetrated against so-called �non-believers�"

What a crock. You obviously attended government schools. I bet you also believe that Christians are the sole instigators of the Crusades, and the peace loving Muslims were minding their own business until they were attacked for no reason.
 

Joakim Ruud
Senior Member
Username: Joques

Post Number: 1635
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 04:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Brewer of Beer, you are a better man than I!
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 2305
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I urge you to go back and re-read the post, carefully. Not looking for phrases you can rail against but actually thinking about the words and the totality of it. I think you'll see that it is neither an "argument" (silly or otherwise) nor filled with self-loathing ("... western society is extremely prosperous and extremely strong ...", etc.). All it does is recommend restraint and a more measured, targeted response to provocation. And, in contrast to your characterization, it is entirely Christian, coming right out of the Gospels. Do I remember correctly that you have a degree in philosophy? If so, I'm sure you have had practice in reading such texts carefully. It will be to your own benefit to re-read this one so that you understand it.
 

brewer of beer
Junior Member
Username: Brewbeer22

Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am sorry that what I have written can be interpreted as meaning “westerners are bad and everyone else is good”, because what I was really hoping to convey my opinion that “violence is bad and non-violence is good”.

With respect to the score of violence of Christianity vs. Islam, all I am saying is that there is more than enough historical blame go around, and that the assignment of blame is what continues to perpetuate the violence even to the current “enlightened” time we now live in.

I hold no such belief that Christianity was the sole instigator for the crusades.

I don’t understand why the schools I attended has relevance in this discussion. However, I will say that I believe what Jesus believed and taught: love, compassion, forgiveness. I believe that God wants humanity to coexist in peace, and that Satan seeks our destruction by spreading anxiety, anger, hatred and discord in any form possible. I believe that humanity will achieve greatness ("salvation"), IF we can reach a point where we can agree to have different opinions and agree to coexist despite our differences in opinion. I also believe that we will destroy ourselves if we do not.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2193
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 07:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One point to be made. Let's stop keeping score. Let's stop excusing current Muslim extremist violence because Christians hundreds of years ago were violent against Muslims. Christians have MOVED BEYOND violence as a mean of disagreement for the most part, other than the occasional idiotic abortion clinic bomber who claims God sent him.

Instead of keeping score and saying "Well the Christians did it too back in the day" let's try to figure out what we have to do to get today's attacks to stop, no matter what made-up reasons these terrorists hide behind when they attack innocent people.

B-O-B, I agree violence is bad, non-violence is good. But until Muslim extremists stop saying "Allahu Akbar" every time they shoot someone, cut their head off, or set off a car bomb, it's kinda hard to say it isn't a crime based on religion. They are invoking the name of their God which does make it as bad as it seems, because killing in the name of your God is wrong and we all know it, they just don't or they use it as an excuse to terrorize in the least.

(Message edited by mikhu on November 11, 2009)
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2893
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 08:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, I guess I am guilty as charged. I saw that sentence and stopped caring what else B-O-B had to say. And yes, I have had practice in reading such texts carefully. This one lost out when B-O-B made a frivolous assumption that is way off base. At that point, I was not interested in the totality of his musings. All I saw was propaganda disguised as enlightened mental masturbation. No thanks.
 

brewer of beer
Junior Member
Username: Brewbeer22

Post Number: 82
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 08:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob is right. The statement

"I don’t know if anyone has been keeping score over the past 2000 years, but I would hazard a guess that Christianity is well ahead of Islam in the totality of violent criminal acts perpetrated against so-called “non-believers”.

is not supported. As such, it is out of line and I withdraw it.

Bob, please accept my apology.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2894
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 10:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

B-O-B,

No need to apologize. I read the rest and I agree with much of what you said. I sometimes need to be reminded if the message Jesus brought us.

And Dan,

You said "Evidence of PC or just speculation and assumption?"

Here you go:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/10/coverage-fort-hood-shooting-press-dod ges-religious-component/

PC kills.
 

Kevin Kowalczyk
Advanced Member
Username: Itsfunbrewingbeer

Post Number: 815
Registered: 10-2007
Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 10:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One more thing Brewer, in your statements Let's stop excusing current Muslim extremist violence because Christians hundreds of years ago were violent against Muslims. Christians have MOVED BEYOND violence as a mean of disagreement for the most part, other than the occasional idiotic abortion clinic bomber who claims God sent him., you are neglecting, as Dan mentioned, the Balkan conflict, or Yugoslav wars, as some people call them, which ended just eight years ago.

Attrocities were committed by both sides, but, the rape/death camps were mostly perpetrated by the Christians against the Muslims. Here's a report from the U.N.:

http://www.earlham.edu/~pols/ps17971/terneel/bassiouni.html
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 744
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 12:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hi all,
Interesting discussion.I just got this from my Uncle.This is the real deal AFAIK....

Eyewitness account
Sent: Friday, November 06, 2009 10:43 AM
Subject: Fort Hood Account from JAG officer onsite



Email from good friend of mine stationed at Fort Hood.
Ryan


> Subject: What happened

> Since I don't know when I'll sleep (it's 4 am now) I'll write what happened (the abbreviated version.....the long one is already part of the investigation with more to come). I'll not write about any part of the investigation that I've learned about since (as a witness I know more than I should since inevitably my JAG brothers and sisters are deeply involved in the investigation). Don't assume that most of the current media accounts are very accurate. They're not. They'll improve with time. Only those of us who were there really know what went down. But as they collate our statements they'll get it right.
>
> I did my SRP last week (Soldier Readiness Processing) but you're supposed to come back a week later to have them look at the smallpox vaccination site (it's this big itchy growth on your shoulder). I am probably alive because I screwed up and entered the wrong building first (the main SRP building). The Medical SRP building is off to the side. Realizing my mistake I left the main building and walked down the sidewalk to the medical SRP building.
As I'm walking up to it the gunshots start. Slow and methodical. But continuous. Two ambulatory wounded came out. Then two soldiers dragging a third who was covered in blood. Hearing the shots but not seeing the shooter, along with a couple other soldiers I stood in the street and yelled at everyone who came running that it was clear but to "RUN!". I kept motioning people fast. about 6-10 minutes later (the shooting continuous), two cops ran up. one male, one female. we pointed in the direction of the shots. they headed that way (the medical SRP building was about 50 meters away). then a lot more gunfire. a couple minutes later a balding man in ACU's came around the building carrying a pistol and holding it tactically. He started shooting at us and we all dived back to the cars behind us. I don't think he hit the couple other guys who were there. I did see the bullet holes later in the cars. First I went behind a tire and then looked under the body of the car. I've been trained how to respond to gunfire...but with my own weapon. To have no weapon I don't know how to explain what that felt like. I hadn't run away and stayed because I had thought about the consequences or anything like that. I wasn't thinking anything through. Please understand, there was no intention. I was just staying there because I didn't think about running. It never occurred to me that he might shoot me. Until he started shooting in my direction and I realized I was unarmed.
Then the female cop comes around the corner. He shoots her. (according to the news accounts she got a round into him. I believe it, I just didn't see it. he didn't go down.) She goes down. He starts reloading. He's fiddling with his mags. Weirdly he hasn't dropped the one that was in his weapon. He's holding the fresh one and the old one (you do that on the range when time is not of the essence but in combat you would just let the old mag go). I see the male cop around the left corner of the building. (I'm about 15-20 meters from the shooter.) I yell at the cop, "He's reloading, he's reloading. Shoot him! Shoot him!) You have to understand, everything was quiet at this point. The cop appears to hear me and comes around the corner and shoots the shooter.
He goes down. The cop kicks his weapon further away. I sprint up to the downed female cop. Another captain (I think he was with me behind the cars) comes up as well. She's bleeding profusely out of her thigh. We take our belts off and tourniquet her just like we've been trained (I hope we did it right...we didn't have any CLS (combat lifesaver) bags with their awesome tourniquets on us, so we worked with what we had).
Meanwhile, in the most bizarre moment of the day, a photographer was standing over us taking pictures. I suppose I'll be seeing those tomorrow. Then a soldier came up and identified himself as a medic. I then realized her weapon was lying there unsecured (and on "fire"). I stood over it and when I saw a cop yelled for him to come over and secure her weapon (I would have done so but I was worried someone would mistake me for a bad guy). I then went over to the shooter. He was unconscious. A Lt Colonel was there and had secured his primary weapon for the time being. He also had a revolver.
I couldn't believe he was one of ours. I didn't want to believe it. Then I saw his name and rank and realized this wasn't just some specialist with mental issues. At this point there was a guy there from CID and I asked him if he knew he was the shooter and had him secured. He said he did. I then went over the slaughter house...the medical SRP building. No human should ever have to see what that looked like, and I won't tell you. Just believe me. Please, there was nothing to be done there. Someone then said there was someone critically wounded around the corner. I ran around (while seeing this floor to ceiling window that someone had jumped through movie style) and saw a large African-American soldier lying on his back with two or three soldiers attending. I ran up and identified two entrance wounds on the right side of his stomach, one exit wound on the left side and one head wound. He was not bleeding externally from the stomach wounds (though almost certainly internally) but was bleeding from the head wound.
A soldier was using a shirt to try and stop the head bleeding. He was conscious so I began talking to him to keep him so. He was 42, from North Carolina, he was named something Jr., his son was named something III and he had a daughter as well. His children lived with him. He was divorced. I told him the blubber on his stomach saved his life. He smiled. A young soldier in civvies showed up and identified himself as a combat medic. We debated whether to put him on the back of a pickup truck. A doctor (well, an audiologist) showed up and said you can't move him, he has a head wound. We finally sat tight. I went back to the slaughterhouse. They weren't letting anyone in there not even medics.
Finally, after about 45 minutes had elapsed some cops showed up in tactical vests. Someone said the TBI building was unsecured. They headed into there. All of a sudden a couple more shots were fired. People shouted there was a second shooter. A half hour later the SWAT showed up. There was no second shooter, that had been an impetuous cop apparently. But that confused things for a while. Meanwhile, I went back to the shooter. The female cop had been taken away,and a medic was pumping plasma into the shooter. I'm not proud of this but I went up to her and said "this is the shooter, is there anyone else who needs attention...do them first". She indicated everyone else living was attended to. I still hadn't seen any EMTs or ambulances. I had so much blood on me that people kept asking me if I was ok. But that was all other people's blood. Eventually, (an hour and a half to two hours after the shootings) they started landing choppers. They took out the big African American guy and the shooter. I guess the ambulatory wounded were all at the SRP building. Everyone else in my area was dead.
>
> I suppose the emergency responders were told there were multiple shooters. I heard that was the delay with the choppers (they were all civilian helicopters). They needed a secure LZ, but other than the initial cops who did everything right, I didnt' see a lot of them for a while. I did see many a soldier rush out to help their fellows/sisters. There was one female soldier, I dont' know her name or rank but I would recognize her anywhere who was everywhere helping people. A couple people, mainly civilians, were hysterical, but only a couple. One civilian freaked out when I tried to comfort her when she saw my uniform. I guess she had seen the shooter up close. A lot of soldiers were rushing out to help even when we thought there was another gunman out there. This Army is not broken no matter what the pundits say. Not the Army I saw.
>
> and then they kept me for a long time to come. oh, and perhaps the most surreal thing, at 1500 (the end of the workday on Thursdays) when the bugle sounded we all came to attention and saluted the flag. in the middle of it all.

this is what I saw. it can't have been real. but this is my small corner of what happened.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6867
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 02:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, find something other than the "Fahrenballanced" Fox News. I don't want to waste my time.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2896
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 02:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, stay ignorant. You are becoming quite loveable that way.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2897
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 02:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

how's CNN for ya?

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/matthew-balan/2009/11/11/cnn-considers-political-co rrectness-factor-ft-hood-shooting
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 6868
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was that BY CNN or about CNN?

Someday you will have to post a list of the wingnut sites you habituate. That should be amusing.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 2898
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 03:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Some folks call it Google.
 

Connie
Senior Member
Username: Connie

Post Number: 1477
Registered: 10-2000
Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 06:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

This from CNN news: http://d.yimg.com/kq/groups/17260182/1610997888/name/ftc-vi26..wmv
 

Brewzz
Advanced Member
Username: Brewzz

Post Number: 747
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 10:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That is just sickening,Connie!
Brewzz

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