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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7485
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 01:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yesterday I heard a BBC reporter use the term "ultra-right" to in reference the Tea Party. To what degree is this debatable?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12098
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 02:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I think that's an oversimplification. By nature most of the members of the Tea Party movement tend to be more conservative in that they want lower taxes and smaller government. Moreover, they wrap themselves in a cloak of patriotism and family values. It's also amplified by the fact that the current administration and Congress are controlled by Democrats.

However, to some extent the Tea Party movement defies the traditional liberal/conservative distinctions. Some of its proposals are more properly defined as libertarian. And its anger that the government seems to serve the interests of corporations, the financial industry and the wealthy has populist and progressive overtones. My own concerns are that the anger is largely unfocused and that the members of the movement don't realize they are being used (and financed) by some of the same interests they rail against.

The US has some major choices to make that will affect what happens for the next several generations. I think the Tea Party movement does a far better job of venting its anger than of facing the challenges of what lies ahead. Its image of America seems rooted more in its love for the past than in recognizing the present and charting a course for the future.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7486
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, October 31, 2010 - 02:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

So Bill, you see the Tea Party as reactionary.

Me, I am having a hard time citing a more right wing example, so "ultra-right" seems to fit well.
 

Tom Burk
Member
Username: Tomburk

Post Number: 216
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 12:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sadly, this is more commentary (not discussion) using information gathered by other even more biased commentators. At some point I hope we can actually agree to disagree rather than this "They don't agree with me therefore they are ignorant angry haters with no view on how the world works."

I am concerned when any disagreement with the policy of this government is met with calls of racism and ingnorance. There were many things done during the Bush administration that I did not agree with and liberals were very happy to discuss as it was dissent and freedom of speech. Now if I dare to voice any concern of the present administrations actions I am automatically pigeon holed and called names that I would never allow my students and I'm sure my own children have never called anyone, yet it freely flows out of their mouths. I am speaking of college educated and college educators that I frequently deal with.

I grew up in a family where my mother was chairperson of our county democratic party and my father was a republican. We didn't have to hate or demean, you guys go ahead, it just reveals alot about your thought process and attitude.

Even though I stopped to post on a six yeast starter that I did, I really am just turned by the idea now.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7487
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 12:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To the subject, Tom, can you cite a more extreme example of "ultra-right" thought than the "Tea Party?" No hate, just analysis.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3281
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 01:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you think the Tea Party people are "ultra-right" then you just don't get it, and probably never will. Enjoy yourself on Tuesday.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7488
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 02:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK Bob, a non-answer. Try again. . .
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12101
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 03:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, I'm nearly as angry (perhaps more so) as some Tea Party members at how those in political power (both the Bush and Obama administrations and both of their Congresses) have given in to the interests of the financial industry and fostered the greatest disparity in wealth since the Great Depression. Ninety per cent of Americans are worse off than they were a generation ago.

I'm also very careful not to characterize the Tea Party movement as being racist, although I think they are fundamentally uncomfortable with Obama's multi-racial, multi-cultural upbringing.

As I said, my main concerns are that the Tea Party agenda is not realistic for America and its role in the world of the 21st century, nor does it solve the serious problems the country faces. But those are issues I would discuss with reason and in good faith, and certainly without pigeon-holing and name calling.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3282
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 04:11 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"the Tea Party agenda is not realistic for America and its role in the world of the 21st century"

You mean like supporting candidates who actually believe in our Constitution, and the values of our founding Fathers?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12103
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 10:31 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, every president and member of Congress swears to uphold the Constitution. Most Supreme Court justices carry a copy with them. As for the values of the founders, they disagreed among each other almost as much as we do in our fractured political discourse today. I'm hoping you are at least aware of the Federalist Papers.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7490
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 12:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Still no examples of groups more right wing than the Tea Party. I can't find a reason to see them as other than "ultra-right."
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12104
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 12:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, the fixation on how far right is the Tea Party movement is no more useful than cloaking yourself in the Constitution and claiming the values of the founders. I'm not saying these things aren't worthwhile, but arguing them is like a debate about religious doctrine: it encourages divisiveness and doesn't advance solutions to problems.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3284
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 12:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Maybe I should go on a rant about how far left Obama, Pelosi, Reed, & many other "Democrats" are...

Would that be helpful?

Less than 24 hours till the polls open. Let the blood-letting begin!
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12105
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 01:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I know I'm taking the bait, but why the quotation marks for "Democrats"? If capitalized, it's a political party, of which the individuals you mention are members. If lower case, it's a political philosophy, which you are free to argue whether those individuals adhere to.

At some point can we all stop the goading about terminology and language, and focus on the real issues? Or has the divisiveness reached the point where there can be no dialogue at all? If that is the case, the consequences are devastating. The nation depends on people being able to carry on a civil discussion without all the backbiting and intentional insults.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7491
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 02:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Maybe I should go on a rant about how far left Obama, Pelosi, Reed, & many other "Democrats" are..."

Again?
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 2255
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 09:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Or has the divisiveness reached the point where there can be no dialogue at all? If that is the case, the consequences are devastating.

Bill, your question has been answered here, on every political talk show, and by the political commercials being run on radio and television.



(Message edited by dhacker on November 01, 2010)
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 2607
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Monday, November 01, 2010 - 10:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

At some point can we all stop the goading about terminology and language, and focus on the real issues?

That point will definitely come in January, when the new Congress sits and all the new Governors are sworn in. That's when the winners will finally have to use real math (the kind where numbers actually add up) and not campaign math, so they'll have to explain how they'll balance the budget and cut taxes without cutting spending on entitlements or defense. I'm almost hoping that Carly Fiorina wins her race just so that she'll finally have to answer that question.

The Tea Party will learn in 2011 what Newt Ginrich learned in 1995: Most Americans really DO like big government and entitlements; they just don't want to PAY for them. Tell them you'll give them cheaper government in the abstract and they'll elect you. Try to take away any specific entitlement or program and they'll hate you.

I do not for a moment doubt the sincerity or intelligence of Tea Party supporters. But I think they misjudge when they claim that "most Americans" agree with them. Remember that 1/2 of the people who dislike the health care law dislike it because it is "too watered down" and doesn't contain a public option. Similarly, half the people who claim to be disappointed in Obama are disappointed that he isn't left-wing enough. True believers in the new Congress are going to collide hard with that reality.
 

Tom Burk
Member
Username: Tomburk

Post Number: 218
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 01:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, I won't respond to your request to name a more ultra right wing group because the question is comparable to being asked; When did you quit beating your wife? You should, and apparently others here do, understand that identifying millions of people that you neither understand or want to understand with that label is deplorable. You should really look at what you are saying about people before you comment.

Bill: "Tom, I'm nearly as angry (perhaps more so) as some Tea Party members at how those in political power (both the Bush and Obama administrations and both of their Congresses) have given in to the interests of the financial industry and fostered the greatest disparity in wealth since the Great Depression. Ninety per cent of Americans are worse off than they were a generation ago.

I'm also very careful not to characterize the Tea Party movement as being racist, although I think they are fundamentally uncomfortable with Obama's multi-racial, multi-cultural upbringing.

As I said, my main concerns are that the Tea Party agenda is not realistic for America and its role in the world of the 21st century, nor does it solve the serious problems the country faces. But those are issues I would discuss with reason and in good faith, and certainly without pigeon-holing and name calling."

No business owner that I know cares about the race of the President, they care that they can make a living, retain their employees and have a business that they can pass down to their children, they have genuine, actual concerns about what is being done in Washington and more locally Lansing. I disagree that their ideas are unacceptable and agree that positive discussion can and should take place.:-)

Paul: "The Tea Party will learn in 2011 what Newt Ginrich learned in 1995: Most Americans really DO like big government and entitlements; they just don't want to PAY for them. Tell them you'll give them cheaper government in the abstract and they'll elect you. Try to take away any specific entitlement or program and they'll hate you."

That's one of my biggest concerns, people are being taught everyday that government is responsible for their well being. How do you run for office saying "I want the government to do less for you because you should be responsible for yourself." against "I'll give you this and we'll take the money from someone else to pay for it."

Paul: "Remember that 1/2 of the people who dislike the health care law dislike it because it is "too watered down" and doesn't contain a public option. Similarly, half the people who claim to be disappointed in Obama are disappointed that he isn't left-wing enough. True believers in the new Congress are going to collide hard with that reality."

That is absolutely right. Many of the Tea Party people (shiver sound) want sound health care reform, just not a monster bill that litterally no one knew or understood and was more of a financial and government power grab. I hope the the collision is people with similar ideas saying let's keep this and get rid of this.

Hacker, I really like political discussion, but I'm tired of hearing how liberals want us to become China and liberals think that anyone that disagrees with Obama, is racist, ignorant or younameitphobic. I believe the ads this year are doing exactly the opposite of what politicians say they want, many people are saying they are tired of politics and won't vote. Is that perhaps what politicians really want, controllable apathy?

(Message edited by tomburk on November 02, 2010)
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7492
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 02:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom:Dan, I won't respond to your request to name a more ultra right wing group because the question is comparable to being asked; When did you quit beating your wife? You should, and apparently others here do, understand that identifying millions of people that you neither understand or want to understand with that label is deplorable. You should really look at what you are saying about people before you comment.

Utter nonsense. You can't run away from what you are.

Tom: Hacker, I really like political discussion, but I'm tired of hearing how liberals want us to become China and liberals think that anyone that disagrees with Obama, is racist, ignorant or younameitphobic.

Strange nonsense - paranoid probably.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3286
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 02:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

please don't feed the Troll
 

Tom Burk
Member
Username: Tomburk

Post Number: 219
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 02:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, you may find it utter nonsense that groups of millions of people can't be labeled by a single derogatory term, that's sad. Your bias becomes obvious when I agree (presumably) with Hacker that the rhetoric of political and societal discussions has become so denigrating on both sides, that very few feel comfortable with the devastating results.

Perhaps if you take positions that could be discussed rather than comments stating that I am paranoid or who's worse than this, your posts would less negative, more informative and more likely to have people feel that they can contribute rather than fearing condemnation. Then again perhaps discussion is not what your looking for, sorry if I misunderstood.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7493
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 02:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Lets talk about nonsense.

Is the Tea Party not defined by its conservative nature and is this not expressed as "right wing?"

We will continue from here when you answer.
 

Tom Burk
Member
Username: Tomburk

Post Number: 220
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 02:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bob, I couldn't help it. Don't get much free time lately. Never give up, someday Dan may be able to express himself without calling names and condemning others.
 

Tom Burk
Member
Username: Tomburk

Post Number: 221
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 03:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm assuming you know there are several models or theories of political delineation. These are in many ways designed for those that have to have places to put people that they feel revolve around their "real" world. In actuality most people don't fall neatly into any of the models, no matter how badly some want them to.

If you care to present specific concepts and discuss whether they are right or left, right or wrong I feel those would be acceptable discussions. Other than that refer to my previous response to the flamer you threw.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3287
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 03:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom, Dan is a prime example of why the Left does not understand just what the Tea Party movement is all about. He, like the majority of the LSM, believes that since most Tea Party protesters are older and white, they must be racist. No other reason can be fathomed. This is why the Left will have their hats handed to them tomorrow. They just don't get it.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 2608
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 04:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> Is that perhaps what politicians really want, controllable apathy?

Um, yeah. Some of them, anyway. That's not new and it is certainly going on in this cycle. It's too late and I'm too tired to find the links right now, but there have been TV ads telling Latinos not to vote in order to "send the Democrats a message". There are also a number of "voter fraud prevention" drives which are uncomfortably close to intimidation campaigns to scare voters away from the polls. (Sorry, I know those were both by right-wing groups aimed at likely Democratic voters. I am sure the same thing happens on the other side and I'd be happy to include examples. I just can't think of any at the moment.) Attack ads are considered just as successful if they keep disillusioned opposition voters home as if they create votes for the advertiser's side.

I agree that there has been too much labeling of the Tea Party as racist, Islamophobic, etc. without any basis in fact. But try to empathize a little with your average Lefty on this. Let me explain.

As far as I can tell, the average Tea Party supporter is a reasonable, educated, upper-middle class person without a visceral, tribal connection to either political party. Many have never been politically active before and, although most are Republican, many are independent, Libertarian, and even Democratic. Their positions are not old-school hard-Right, but do definitely fall on the Right side of the divide. And they really dislike Obama and everything he has done.

Also on the Right, also hating Obama, and cheering on the Tea Party, are the provacateurs: Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Coulter, Palin, Bachmann, etc. I wouldn't call any of these people true Tea Partiers, except maybe Palin, but they themselves are loudly, and continually, singing the Tea Party's praises and pushing Tea Party candidates forward. They are also, every one of them, name-callers of the first order. They bray and shout and mis-label and call names and do everything they can to shut down any and every attempt at rational discussion of the issues.

So, for someone on the Left, it can be very difficult to distinguish between a true Tea Partier, just trying to present an alternative but reasonable political platform, and the truly nasty jerks who clothe themselves in Tea Party colors. Maybe no one at a Tea Party rally uses terms like "Demoncrats" or calls Obama racist or labels everything they don't like Socialist. But many who claim to speak for the Tea Party (mostly on Fox's dime) do, loudly and continually.

In other words, the assholes on the airwaves give the real Tea Party a bad name.

Even those on the Left who try to keep the two separate can lose heart when Coulter calls them all stupid and Beck says they are all traitors. The real Tea Party would get more respect on the left if it put more distance between itself and Fox.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7494
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 11:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I seem to have touched a nerve.

"I'm assuming you know there are several models or theories of political delineation. "

Yes and that is usually expressed as "left verses right." I doubt that you would be willing to deny the "right" side of the Tea Party. So here we have a group who are falling all over each other to claim the mantle of "More Conservative Than Thou." Perhaps this mindset can't allow for the possibility that there are those even more right wing than they are, so bringing one to mind, is beyond their abilities. However it is obvious that they don't want to be labeled "ultra-right," knowing that that term is highly unattractive.

Here, let me suggest a couple of groups that are probably more right-wing than the Tea Party - the Aryan Nation, the KKK and the John Birch Society. Surely some Tea Partyiers can come up with groups inbetween, huh?
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2264
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 12:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ultra right - communist
Ultra left - socialist

Both end up with a small ultra rich class and a class of workers who can just make ends meet. In one system the government runs and controls everything and those at the top levels of government are the ultra rich. In the other the government controls nothing but funds everything and the ultra rich are the industrialists.

I am very happy we are in the middle no matter how much we yell that one is more left or more right than the other.

Doug
 

Robert
Intermediate Member
Username: Okierat

Post Number: 330
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 01:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I posted this once and it appears to be needed again....

After careful consideration I have come to the conclusion that the world is nuts. Yes, all of you are nuts. I therefore appoint my self Supreme Overlord. My first order is for everyone to sit down and have a beer. If you don't then I will hit you in the back of the head with my mash paddle.

So as a result. Dan, Bob get in line. My mash paddle awaits......
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7495
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 01:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Ultra right - communist
Ultra left - socialist"

Unique, to say the least.
 

Fritz Eubanks
Junior Member
Username: Fritzeubanks

Post Number: 75
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 04:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Tom: "I believe the ads this year are doing exactly the opposite of what politicians say they want, many people are saying they are tired of politics and won't vote. Is that perhaps what politicians really want, controllable apathy?"

Yes, it is. IMO, it began in the Nixon era, and has been a mainstay of American Politics since then, with the politicians aided and abetted by broadcast media, mainstream and otherwise.

It's part of the reason I don't have cable or satellite TV - 150 channels of excrement contributing to the downfall of a country.

I believe that the tax structure should be turned on its head, with the largest portion of my income going to my local government, and the smallest to the federal government. Every dollar should go for essential services only: national defense and interstate commerce at the federal level, intrastate commerce and infrastructure at the state level, civil protection/security and local infrastructure at the county/local level.

Beyond that, I want to be left alone to care for my family, read my books, enjoy my neighbors, brew my beer, and live out my life.

Don't get me wrong - I still vote in every election. It's more of a chore getting motivated to do it these days than it used to be.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12108
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Whether or not you are sympathetic to the Tea Party movement or the two major political parties, there is disturbing data here: http://www.tax.com/taxcom/taxblog.nsf/Permalink/UBEN-8AGMUZ?OpenDocument

It shows that the recovery, such as it has been, from the recession has benefited the wealthy in great measure, while most Americans' income has declined.

Caught up in the frenzy of the midterm election campaign, the media has almost entirely ignored this story. There is little comfort here for either Republicans or Democrats, or for that matter, the Tea Partiers. Our political system lies mired in partisan name-calling and backbiting while those with the greatest means and the most to gain exploit the dysfunction to their benefit. I don't see how any change in control of Congress will alter these fundamental inequities.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2283
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 05:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fritz said: "I believe that the tax structure should be turned on its head, with the largest portion of my income going to my local government, and the smallest to the federal government. Every dollar should go for essential services only: national defense and interstate commerce at the federal level, intrastate commerce and infrastructure at the state level, civil protection/security and local infrastructure at the county/local level. "

BINGO! Fritz gets it!

Bill - You refer to the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer, which I'm pretty sure just about every one of us can feel and understand. However, that also perfectly explains our political climate since that's all every long term politician is in it for, to buy enough votes to stay in power. That's why I believe there is validity in voting them all out until they get it. Maybe if we keep kicking them out some day the ones who are in office will realize they must vote the way the majority of the people want them to vote and not the way that just keeps them in office. I can hope anyway.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12111
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Tuesday, November 02, 2010 - 06:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yes, Mike, I'm irked by those who accuse the Democrats of advocating a socialist redistribution of wealth, when for the past 30 years under both parties there has been precisely the opposite, to the point where the disparity is now equal or greater than what existed in 1929 at the beginning of the Great Depression. Warren Buffett was right when he said indeed there has been class warfare, and his class won.
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 2100
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 01:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Goodbye, Nancy . . .
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7497
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 02:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Goodbye, Nancy . . ."

Who will the Republicans nominate for their next demon
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3289
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 12:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Now I remember why I don't come here much anymore.
 

Mike Huss
Senior Member
Username: Mikhu

Post Number: 2285
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 12:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It just dawned on me. Dan is actually Bill Maher posting under a pseudonym.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12114
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 01:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It remains to be seen what fate awaits John Boehner. His predecessors have had a checkered history.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 2611
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 01:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Congratulations to the GOP on its gains yesterday. May they use their new power well, to the benefit of all Americans.

Congratulations also to the people, for showing that elections cannot be bought (Meg Whitman, Linda McMahon) and that even a heartfelt protest vote isn't good enough reason to elect someone truly unqualified (Carl Paladino, Christine O'Donnell). The intelligent choices of the people are what keep American democracy working.

Now, let's hope that ALL of the politicians who won, on both sides of the aisle, hear this message: Any electorate unhappy enough to swing 60 House seats in one election is just as likely to swing them back in the next if they feel that they are not getting what they want. Time for both sides to shut up and get to work.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12116
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 01:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree, Paul, and the politicians (and pundits) need to realize that it requires both parties to solve the staggering problems the country faces both now and in the future.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7498
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 01:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Now, let's hope that ALL of the politicians who won, on both sides of the aisle, hear this message: Any electorate unhappy enough to swing 60 House seats in one election is just as likely to swing them back in the next if they feel that they are not getting what they want. Time for both sides to shut up and get to work."

Good luck with that Paul! I see the Tea Party as incapable of governing, being too torqued up with ridged ideology. Here is betting that they will vote often with the Democrats because the Republicans are not pure enough.
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 2101
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 02:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's encouraging to see the independant voters continue to have such an impact on elections. Hopefully we will continue to move in a direction away from the two party system that has instilled the "us or them" ideology that permeates the political landscape of this country. When we finally turn away from this type of thinking, then we'll begin to see true cooperation (in congress) and meaningful progress.

Mike, Bill Maher has a sense of humor. So they obviously can't be the same person.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7499
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 03:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am seeing the ndependents as far too fickle and short sighted. Less than a year and a half after the worst recession since the Great Depression ended, and they think that the economy should be roaring like it did under Clinton. That is asking a bit much.

While I am all for getting people who make messes to clean up the messes they make, asking the Republicans to do it, is like asking a one year old to clean up his mess - it is very likely to create an even bigger mess.
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 2102
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I seem to remember nearly a year ago being told The Great Ship was in it's final turn. Apparently it's not only the independants who think/thought the economy was going to come roaring back?

Perhaps they only seem short-sighted to people with innate, bimodal thinking patterns.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7500
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 03:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

More likely, bimodal thinking patterns cause the shortsightedness. If it is not perfect, it must be horrible.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12117
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 04:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David, I don't know that a multi-party system would be a better solution. It has led to governmental gridlock in more than a few countries, and my own opinion is that it's particularly unsuited for a world superpower such as the US. It also tends to encourage ideological purity, which though favored by some on the right and in the Tea Party movement, also inhibits flexibility and compromise.

I've come to the conclusion that factionalism and gridlock are precisely what some of the vested interests want, as the status quo only furthers their control and ability to operate without interference.

(Message edited by BillPierce on November 03, 2010)
 

davidwaite
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 2103
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 05:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You may be correct, Bill, but I can't help but believe that the more influence the independent (note that is not capitalized) voters have over elections, the more those in office may begin to realize that it isn't (or shouldn't be) the lobbists who are dictating the policies of this country. Not to mention them being willing to simply fall into line with the party's specific dogma. If you don't represent the people who put you in office, you're out. Unfortunately, for the past couple decades too many have been too quick to click the red or the blue box exclusively. Times, they are a changin.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 12120
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 05:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That the times they are a-changin' is obvious indeed. I don't have any problem with independent voters changing their party loyalties (it's why they're independent), although I do have some concern that the present situation (partisan gridlock, a stagnant economy) may lead to a seesaw effect among the parties. Independent voters who were uncomfortable with G.W. Bush were rather quick to embrace Obama in 2008, and again to vote Republican in protest against the Democrats in this year's midterm elections. Will they again flip the other way in 2012? That's what tends to happen when people are upset but don't see any real progress or solutions.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7501
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 07:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I predict gridlock on an unimaginative scale. Remember, Mitch McConnell's stated primary goal is to see that Obama is a one term president. I see no reason to doubt his intentions. I trust that he doesn't care much where the country goes until then. An interesting approach to patriotism, huh?
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 6184
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 07:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Unfortunately, for the past couple decades too many have been too quick to click the red or the blue box exclusively.

Not me! I voted for one Republican yesterday....the County Coroner. He's a good guy.
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3290
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 08:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

You know, when I read what Dan has to say, I find myself questioning the wisdom of the First Amendment. But then I am reminded of the words of Abraham Lincoln; "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 2612
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 09:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

@Chumley: I did the same -- straight party line except for Probate Judge because I knew the candidate from the "other side" was stronger. If the incumbent Governor had been running again, I'd have voted for her too, even though she's from the other side. She's done well. I see no reason to ever blindly vote a party ticket.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7502
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Wednesday, November 03, 2010 - 10:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL!

Hey Bob, have you screwed up enough courage to attempt to name a group more right wing than the Tea Party Yet? Give it a go!
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3291
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 12:45 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Have you stopped beating your wife?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7503
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 01:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

LOL! Try a new tack to avoid the truth again, you used this one before.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7504
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 01:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=nnUfPQVOqpw
 

Bob Wall
Senior Member
Username: Brewdudebob

Post Number: 3292
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 03:55 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGwtG8nVpUU
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 6186
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:10 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The obvious solution to this current state of World Affairs is for Bob to get on his bike and motor up to the Listermann camp for a weekend of beer drinking and bsing. Then I think the animosity would, maybe not go away, but at least be tempered somewhat.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 2613
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 10:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

+1 Chumley. Best plan I've heard in a long time.
 

Robert
Intermediate Member
Username: Okierat

Post Number: 334
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 01:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Okay, let me get this straight. Bob + Dan + Beer? Will you sell pay-per-view?
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7505
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 02:43 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Floating dock on a river!

Hey, Bob, how much of that Youtube do you buy anyway?
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2265
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 03:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Change the way we vote.

One vote....For a candidate +1
Against a candidate -1

If you don't like either you cast your "against" for the one you like least....that way you don't have to vote for someone just because they are the lesser of two evils. Force candidates to win your vote.

No my idea but it sounds interesting.

Doug
 

Fritz Eubanks
Junior Member
Username: Fritzeubanks

Post Number: 76
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 04:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug - another thought is voter preference ordering, also known as Borda's voting method. The idea has been around since the 1780's. In theory, it results in the election of the most generally acceptable (least objectionable) candidate.

Either method has to be better than what we have today.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7506
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 04, 2010 - 05:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How did Nevada's "none-of-these" do in the Senate race?

(Message edited by listermann on November 04, 2010)
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 6469
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Friday, November 02, 2012 - 05:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Two years ago, Paul Hayslett wrote:

"Congratulations to the GOP on its gains yesterday. May they use their new power well, to the benefit of all Americans.

Congratulations also to the people, for showing that elections cannot be bought (Meg Whitman, Linda McMahon) and that even a heartfelt protest vote isn't good enough reason to elect someone truly unqualified (Carl Paladino, Christine O'Donnell). The intelligent choices of the people are what keep American democracy working.

Now, let's hope that ALL of the politicians who won, on both sides of the aisle, hear this message: Any electorate unhappy enough to swing 60 House seats in one election is just as likely to swing them back in the next if they feel that they are not getting what they want. Time for both sides to shut up and get to work."

Two years later we have seen the results of that. Congress has done nothing, mainly because of Republican Tea Party obstructionism.

Its time to give the boot to these extremists, and return to a functioning government. Vote Democrat!
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1319
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Friday, November 02, 2012 - 07:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yesterday I heard a BBC reporter use the term "ultra-right" to in reference the Tea Party. To what degree is this debatable?

I prefer the term:

"American Taliban" over "ultra-right"
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 3126
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2012 - 12:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I obviously underestimated the Tea Party's willingness to trash the country rather than allow Obama credit for anything positive.

The scary thing is that this has now become the Republican Party's final argument for Romney: Vote for Romney because if Obama wins the Tea Party will take us all over the cliff edge. The scarier thing is, they may be right.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 14127
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2012 - 03:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The other argument that disturbs me is that Romney is a better choice because he will reach across the aisle to Democrats who will have to work with him. We already know that Republicans won't work with Obama.
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1320
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2012 - 03:32 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Romney does not understand the truth because he has no truth

His truth is of the moment...
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7992
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2012 - 02:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Reaching across the aisle has been taken off the table by the Tea Party.
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1321
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Saturday, November 03, 2012 - 03:19 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

American Taliban Dan...

American Taliban
 

Jim DeShields
Member
Username: Niquejim

Post Number: 239
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2012 - 01:19 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Harry Reid has already posted that if Romney wins he will do everything in his power to make sure nothing he wants gets through the Senate
Who's the American Taliban now
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7993
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2012 - 02:51 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well a turn about is considered fair play. Give the Tea Party a taste of their own medicine.

Maybe you think that the Democrats should just roll over to the Tea Party. Not very realistic.
 

Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 1322
Registered: 07-2007
Posted on Sunday, November 04, 2012 - 03:53 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Harry Reid is also part of the problem...
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 3127
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 12:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I disagree with Dan. I believe that any legislator who puts party above country should not be a legislator.

Reid and Pelosi are party hacks first, legislators second. Neither will be remembered for anything of substance 1 year after they leave office. They do the Democratic party no favors.

But it must be said: if Reid actually thinks he can impose the same type of discipline on the Senate Democrats that McConnell has imposed on the Republicans, he is pathetically deluded. Democrats just don't work that way. They rolled over and let W have everything he asked for. They'll probably do the same for Mitt.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 14128
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Monday, November 05, 2012 - 02:10 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

One of the ironies of American politics is that the Democrats' willingness to compromise works against them in terms of allowing Republicans to dominate the process, yet it is also one of the few factors that provides any hope at all for the success of the system.

And yes, Reid and Pelosi are political creatures who are unlikely to make any contributions to progress. It should also be noted that McConnell and Boehner are hardly exemplary in this regard. It's probably in the nature of the positions they hold. All of them have a field of vision that is both narrow and shortsighted.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7994
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 06, 2012 - 02:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

McConnell and Boehner are not leaders. They are being led around by their short curlies by the Tea Party and Grover Norquist.
 

Nephalist
Advanced Member
Username: Nephi

Post Number: 608
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 05:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know much about politics anywhere else. Are there examples where the political/geographical landscape is as large and as diverse, and yet there is political fluidity?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 14131
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 01:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Nephi, finding other examples may not be relevant. Each country has its own dynamics, and the US political system is unique in its mix.

I'm struck by the fact that after the most expensive and one of the most divisive elections in American history, so little has changed. The country remains highly polarized and largely at odds with itself. A few Republicans will see the election as a repudiation of their tactics, but I fear most will double down in their opposition to politics and policies with which they stridently disagree. And Democrats may crow that they were vindicated, but I fear they have no idea how to implement their vision.

I've said before that this gridlock serves the interests of who profit most from it and who will only work harder to cement their control.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7796
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, November 07, 2012 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What I find interesting is that after 4 years of Republicans telling us how bad Obama is and how low his approval ratings are, it appears that the only thing the American people like less is the Republicans.
 

Steve Ruch
Intermediate Member
Username: Rookie

Post Number: 444
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 12:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny,
The recession did start on the republican's watch and most people know it. They want to give Obama a real chance to clean up the mess he got left when George hightailed it back to Texas.
 

Paul Hayslett
Senior Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 3128
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 01:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Denny, the reasons are clear to the GOP. They bet the farm on older white men and there just aren't enough older white men left to carry the election.

Before anyone tells me I'm "playing the race card", keep in mind that dozens of REPUBLICAN analysts are saying this. Brit Hume said it on Fox on election night, and Dick Morris repeated it on Fox the next day. Almost verbatim, Morris said, "We just didn't expect so many blacks and Hispanics to vote." It has been repeated by Huckabee, Rubio, Kristol, Boortz, the WSJ editors, and even Karl Rove.

GOP Senate hopefuls lost by double digits among women even in states that went for Romney 2:1. Even FEMALE GOP Senate hopefuls lost among women.

The youth vote is now skewed 2:1 against the GOP. This holds across all ethnic groups. The over-65s skew the other way.

Unless and until the GOP drops platform planks which appeal almost entirely to older white, mostly rural, men, alienating almost everyone else, their success rate at national contests will continue to dwindle.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 14134
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 02:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just over 50 percent of the Republican "base" is too far to the right and out of touch with the changing majority of Americans. They're either ideological true believers or angry Tea Partiers more intent on venting their spleens than crafting an agenda. The problem is that these groups are the "sound and fury" of the party. More pragmatic, dare I use the word "moderate," voices have been marginalized and punished in the primaries and internal debate.

The other half of Republicans are supporters of business and economic interests that obviously have great monetary and other influence on the political process. Unfortunately for them, their candidate was seen as favoring wealthy interests and being out of touch with ordinary Americans.

And thus a president was re-elected who does not enjoy great popularity but who overall better reflects America than his opponents.

Americans want change, but they can't agree on what the change should be. Meanwhile the clock continues to tick. Whether they can achieve a consensus before very late, perhaps too late, in the game is the question that dominates the country at this time.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7995
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 06:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Republican "true believers " probably think that Romney was not conservative enough and will want to double down the next time. Where they think the can find votes that way is anybody's guess. Which primary candidate would have fared better than Romney? Maybe Pollenty or Hunt, but they were the first to get thrown overboard.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7797
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 06:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dan, according to what I just read on CNN,that's indeed what the Tea Partiers are saying. There are a lot of others, though. that seem to think simply narrowing the base is not the way to win in the future. It will be interesting to see which faction wins out.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 14135
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If Republicans want to win, they are going to have to jettison some of the social "wedge" issues that alienate them from too many people. The emphasis and insensitivity on rape and abortion issues made women, who were 54 percent of voters this year, feel targeted. The hard line on immigration made Hispanics, the majority of whom are citizens, feel targeted based on geography and appearance. And while gays and lesbians are hardly a majority, most people are beginning to believe that sexual orientation is not a determinant of very much else.
 

Jim DeShields
Member
Username: Niquejim

Post Number: 240
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Thursday, November 08, 2012 - 11:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The democrats are too far to the left, the republicans are too religious and socially conservative and the libertarians only get 1%
I'm officially someone with no one to cast a meaningful vote for
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7996
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 04:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jim, can you defend your charge that the Democrats are "too far to the left?" It is inobvious to me.
 

Jim DeShields
Member
Username: Niquejim

Post Number: 241
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 12:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Harry Reid has already stated that the debt ceiling should be raised to $19 trillion, but not a word about cutting spending. It is obvious to me although you see the world through a different set of values and beliefs Dan so it won't be to you.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7798
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 04:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jim, the debt ceiling is about money that has already been spent. We either raise it or we default. That's not how a great country should operate. I fully agree that something needs to be done in the future, but the debt ceiling isn't the right fight.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 14136
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Friday, November 09, 2012 - 05:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The sticking point about the debt limit ceiling issue is that some conservatives are using it as a front for their deep-seated dislike and distrust of government. They would like to re-examine the social compact that has been at least a century in the making and has its origins in the Progressive-era reforms of Teddy Roosevelt.

Denny's right that the proper argument is over the budget and future spending. It seems rather clear that the US cannot afford to continue its current spending at its current revenues. Something (undoubtedly both) is going to have to change.

Making it a philosophical debate and drawing lines in the sand only hardens positions and continues to ensure gridlock.
 

Jim DeShields
Member
Username: Niquejim

Post Number: 242
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 02:24 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Show me ONE TIME where cuts actually were cuts and I'll believe both of you. I'll give you time to try and find actual cuts that happened in the future as promised.
Good luck finding any cut that wasn't a non increase masked as a cut
I've given up on this nation. I will probably never vote again as it is pointless
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 14138
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 03:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jim, I understand your frustration, but assuming you have given up on the US, where is this libertarian low-tax paradise you would seek? Among developed countries, the US ranks 30 out of 33 in terms of its tax burden as a percentage of GDP: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cf m

I don't have personal experience with Chile, but I can't say that Mexico and Turkey are countries in which I would choose to reside other than relatively brief visits as a tourist.
 

Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann

Post Number: 7997
Registered: 03-2004
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 03:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

And this, while supporting a military many, many times larger than any other country.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7799
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 05:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jim, while you're probably accurate about cuts, the point I'm trying to make is that the debt ceiling has nothing to do it. Voting against raising the debt ceiling has nothing to do with how much will be spent in the future.
 

Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75

Post Number: 1993
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Saturday, November 10, 2012 - 05:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would like to know why Oregon didn't join Washington and Colorado in legalizing personal marijuana use. And will the Fed do the right thing and back off?
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 7800
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Sunday, November 11, 2012 - 04:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AFAIK, the law they were trying to pass in OR was much more liberal than in the other 2 states. The thinking was that it probably wouldn't pass so not much $$ or effort was put into it.

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