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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * March 30, 2004 * Chill haze < Previous Next >

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Richard Nye (24.34.142.13)
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 03:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know, I know. Your first reaction is RDWHAHB. But a nice, clear beer is more tempting as you tip the foamy head to your lips. Anyway, I'm always trying to make my beers better.

Fact is, my beers have a moderate amount of haze to them. I'd like to clear them up a bit. I do all the normal stuff like use Irish moss, and drop the temps down to 32F for a few days before I carbonate. But I've never done a protein rest, and I've heard that help with chill haze. What temps? how long? why? Thanks for the help.
 

Belly Buster Bob (131.137.245.200)
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 04:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

chill haze completely dissappears when you pour the last glass from the keg
recommended temp is 122F
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 01:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Irish moss has limited effect on chill haze, which is almost entirely from proteins. It's true that a protein rest sometimes will solve the problem. However, unless the malt is really high in protein, such as wheat, a traditional rest at 122 F also will reduce heading noticeably. If you do a protein rest, I recommend 15 minutes at 130-135 F in most cases. The truth is that most beers will drop clear anyway with sufficient time. This is why chill haze is seldom a problem with lagers.
 

Greg Beron (66.47.129.204)
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you're brewing all-grain, try Crisp's Clarity malt. I love the stuff and use it in almost all of my beers as a sort of "counter-adjunct" because it not only reduces chill haze to virtually nothing, but also has a nice malty quality.
 

Denny Conn (140.211.82.4)
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 06:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"drop the temps down to 32F for a few days"..you're rushing it if clear beer is a priority. Give it a couple weeks at that temp.
 

Vance Barnes (69.15.38.210)
Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 07:08 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Are you brewing ales or lagers? If it's lagers then a month would be the minimum at 32 for me. More days would be even better. Have you tried finning? Polyclar is what to use for chill haze. Add it to the secondary for 4-6 days before bottling or kegging. It has an electric charge that attracts the haze causing proteins and they then settle out together.
 

Richard Nye (24.34.142.13)
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 12:03 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

VB - I brew both ales and lagers. I'm am a little bit impatient. I've got a maibock that will be lagering at 32 until, uh, May. We'll see how that turns out. I'll try polyclar in the ales.

I think I'll try Crisp's Clarity malt if I can find it. Sounds interesting.
 

Chris Smedley (67.85.185.48)
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 02:25 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Greg: Clarity Malt?!! Weird! How much do you use? What is the color of it? Is it a speciality malt of some kind of extra-low-protein 2-row?
 

Sean Richens (142.161.110.41)
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 04:13 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I did an archive search at hbd.org, and there were quite a few posts in favour of using bentonite rather than PolyClar. In principle, it depends on whether you expect reducing the protein or the tannins to do more good.

I just used 4 g of bentonite to 6 USG of a lager, since it contains 2 lbs (!) of raw barley. I only gave it overnight to settle, so I'll have to give it some bottle time before I can report on the results.

The manufacturer promote only their bentonite/PVPP blend now. From the propaganda, it would appear that removing either protein OR tannins would do the job, while both is better. If PVPP doesn't remove heading proteins I'd rather sacrifice a little bit of body than hop flavour.

A heavy dose of PolyClar is just the thing for reducing an over-hopped beer, though.
 

Dan Mourglea (67.240.192.241)
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 05:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Over-hopped says you. How can that be?
 

Vance Barnes (69.15.38.210)
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 03:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sean, is that bentonite/PVPP blend what they sell as Polyclar plus? Or is that silicagel/pvpp blend that's the Polyclar plus? Need to go back to the article on finnings that was in one of the magazines a while back.
 

Hophead (167.4.1.38)
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 04:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Me thinks the gullability factor is high on this thread...

Go with DC advice and leave at 32-34 for a couple of weeks.

Do you use a CFC to cool or immersion? I'll guess the latter... A quick drop in temp from boil to fermenter is also helpful (ie cold break), but the crash cool and rest will clear it the best IMHO.
 

Chris Smedley (138.89.41.51)
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 08:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In case anyone is as uninformed/intrigued as I am, here's some info on Crisp's Clarity Malt found on the HBD archives (#3797, posted by Dave Sapsis):

"Clarity malt is most known for its very low protein levels (the lot I had a bag from listed total protein at less than 9%!) and thus its true that it would have lower polyphenol components. It also has lower diastatic power, was slightly lighter in color than the normal pale ale malt from Crisp, and was a little less plump. Its main use is as a protein dillutant for British brewers who sometimes run into both runnoff and clarity/stability issues from abnormally high Nitrogen lots of base malt. The stuff I got actually had very good flavor, and I made some bitters using it wholly as the base malt, as well as a bizarre Jasmine rice cream ale thingy. Unless you have particular needs for low protein, however, it seems the basic Crisp Maris Otter (which is a truly premium malt) might be a better choice for making English style ales."

Here's the real question: where do you get it, Greg? An admittedly half-••••• search (just Google) doesn't bring up any venders who sell it. Is it still produced? I'd guess not, but you must be getting it from somewhere.
 

chumley (65.102.120.129)
Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 10:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I bought 10 lbs. of Clarity malt from William's as a closeout sale item in December. So maybe it is no longer available. The ESB I brewed with it is languishing in a secondary carboy, so I have yet to see how clear it is. But I don't really care much about how clear my beer is >yawn<.
 

Greg Beron (66.47.129.204)
Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 12:17 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry about missing a couple of requests for more information, but I've been very busy for the past couple of days. My experience with Clarity malt has been similar to that in Chris' post above, except that the batch I made exclusively with Clarity (plus a little Caravienne and Carapils) was quite malty. I wouldn't expect any more maltiness from Maris Otter. However, I usually use it in percentages ranging from 30-60% of a total grain bill. I bought 5 sacks for the store last year and still have a couple left. I'm not the only one who uses it, but I've noticed the vast majority of brewers tend not to try new things. I don't know which homebrew stores might have some but I'll be happy to post the name of the distributor I got mine from in case someone wants to try to persuade their LHBS to stock it.

Greg
Culver City Home Brewing Supply
 

Richard Nye (24.34.142.13)
Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 01:36 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hophead - I use a CFC, and with the cold winter water here in Boston I stuggle to get my chilled wort UP to 70 to pitch the yeast. I do get lots of cold break (usually 2-3 inches in the bottom of a 5 gallon carboy). I'm not too keen about adding bentonite 'cuz it might thin out the body. I don't get a real vigorous boil, and I only boil for 60 minutes. Could that contribute to chill haze?
 

Vance Barnes (69.15.38.210)
Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 03:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I don't get a real vigorous boil, and I only boil for 60 minutes. Could that contribute to chill haze? "

Maybe you're not getting a great hot break?
 

Greg Beron (66.47.129.204)
Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 09:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

A poor hot break could definitely contribute to the haziness of a beer.

Also, I checked with Crisp and Clarity malt is still available. Williams was probably closing it out because it didn't sell fast enough. I'm learning that it takes patience and a lot of advocacy to get homebrewers to use something new.
 

Hophead (167.4.1.38)
Posted on Wednesday, March 17, 2004 - 11:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I would concentrate on a more vigorous boil and a longer cold conditioning period w/o adding anything to the beer.

Heck, ask Pacman...

So, then, if you add clarity malt and wheat malt in the mash, what happens... :)
 

Pacman (68.51.78.225)
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 01:09 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pacman doesn't know anything...

All I can say is exactly what Denny and Bill said and that is wait.... It takes time for a beer to drop bright. I have done everything with my koelsch like step-mashes and long boils to get it to clear faster but what it all comes down to is time. Get it in either a keg or carboy and let it cold condition.

My latest Koelsch I just did a single infusion mash with mashout and a 90 minute boil. Here is the timeline for conditioning:

10-14-03 Brewed (Low 60's)
10-28-03 2ndary (Mid 40's)
12-01-03 Tertiary (Mid to low 40's)
January Kegged

When it went into 2ndary it was still slightly hazy. You could see through it but it wasn't clear. When it went into tertiary it was clear but still had some random floaties. At kegging it was crystal clear. I will admit this is an exagerated timeline due to laziness between 2ndary - tertiary and kegging. I could have cut both of those down by a couple of weeks but it didn't hurt anything. It tastes fantastic and looks great. oh yeah, this was a 6g batch with 1 pound of wheat in it.

I've not had a bad case of chill haze for quite sometime now.

Ain't it purdy
 

David Woods (65.234.23.31)
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 01:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill p. said earlier,
"If you do a protein rest, I recommend 15 minutes at 130-135 F in most cases."

Is this instead of the 122F, or after the 122F rest?

David
 

Bill Pierce (24.141.129.137)
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 01:44 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

David, if you do a high temperature protein rest at 130-135 F don't bother with one at 122 F.
 

Pacman (68.51.78.225)
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 01:47 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It depends on the grainbill as far as i'm concerned. If you are brewing something like Skot's B52 that has both wheat and 6-row you will want to do both rests. I'm finding that with my creamale made with 6-row or my Koelsch with some wheat that doing both rests is too much. Skip the 122 and do the 130-135 rest. In the end it still comes down to conditioning time though.....
 

Sean Richens (142.161.34.109)
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 05:01 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Vance, Polyclar Plus is what the manufacturer is pushing now. It is indeed a blend of silica gel and PVPP. The brochure is interesting reading:

http://www.ispcorp.com/products/beverage/content/brochure/pdf/polyclarplus.pdf
 

Richard Nye (24.34.142.13)
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 11:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks guys. A lot of good ideas to exeriment with.
 

Vance Barnes (69.15.38.210)
Posted on Thursday, March 18, 2004 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow, never knew there were different formulations of Polyclar Plus. Wonder which formulation the hb suppliers typically sell? I've never seen multiple options available. The manufactuer seems to promote it more from a stabilazation of product standpoint than a clarity one. Guess if you're already filtering then the clarity isn't as much of an issue. Guess stabilization is more of an issue once you remove the yeast?

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