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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2004 * Archive through August 18, 2004 * Question for decoction brewers < Previous Next >

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Ron Siddall
New Member
Username: Zardoz

Post Number: 2
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Would like comments on the following mash schedule. It is for a German pils using modified 2 row German pilsner malt:

Acid Rest:

•Add enough boiling water to bring mash temp up to 105 degrees

•After 20 minutes, check pH. Needs to be between 5.2 and 5.5. If higher than 5.8, reduce with phosphoric acid

First Decoction:

•Pull 1/3 of the heaviest part of the mash

•Heat decoction to 150 F within 10 minutes, then through the alpha-amylase range and to 167 F over 10 – 15 minutes, then to boiling.

•Boil for at least 15 - 30 minutes

Beta Amylase Rest:

•Return boiling decoction back to the mash in small batches to slowly and evenly raise the mash temperature to 145 F.

•Hold this temperature for 15 minutes.

•To hold this temperature, add small amounts of boiling water


Second Decoction:

•Pull 1/4 of the heaviest part of the mash

•Heat decoction to 150 F within 10 minutes, then through the alpha-amylase range and to 167 F over 10 – 15 minutes, then to boiling.

•Boil for at least 15 - 30 minutes



Alpha Amylase Rest:

•Return boiling decoction back to the mash in small batches to slowly and evenly raise the mash temperature to 158 F.

•Hold this temperature for 15 minutes.

•To hold this temperature, add small amounts of boiling water

•Check for starch conversion

Lauter Decoction:

•When starch end point has been reached, rack off the thinnest 4 lbs of the mash and bring to a boil for 5 minutes.

Final Rest:

•Remix the mash to raise the temperature to 170F.
•Roust and mix the mash for 5 minutes while maintaining the lauter rest temperature to force insoluble mash particles into suspension.

Sparging:

•Fill the mash tun with 170 F water so that the level of grain is 1 inch lower than surface of the water.
•Stir the mash completely and let settle for 15 minutes
•Flush the wort until it runs clear.
•Manipulate the flow so that the runoff takes 90 minutes to complete.
•Rake the mash to within 6 inches of the bottom
•Smooth over any cracks in the surface as they appear
•Sparge until runoff drops to 3 Plato or 1012 SG
•Check pH when done, wort should be at 5.2 – 5.5. Adjust if necessary.

Most of this is from Noonen but I have make a couple of changes but since this will be my first decoction, I would appreciate any thoughts/comments.

Thanks

Zardoz.
 

Vance Barnes
Advanced Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 899
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Search the archieves for July and look for a thread on Bo Pils mash schedule. Danno had some good info on how he does this. I'm going to be trying his variation next Friday myself.
 

Dave Witt
Intermediate Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 450
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 03:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've done several decoctions, and I can tell you that you won't go from 105 to 145 by decocting 1/3 of the mash. Did you forget about the protein rest or are you skipping it? Most of your process seems to be in the ballpark, though.

When you boil the decoction using modified malt, you don't need to boil it more than 10-15 min, unless you feel it will give you a better flavor (many feel there's little to gain).

Also, when you mash in, if you use boiling water and stopped at 105 deg, I think the grain wouldn't be wet enough. I would start with water that is 125 or so and start thick. Use ProMash to help figure strike temps.

For the lauter decoction, go by volume rather than weight. No need to boil extra time here either, the session will be long enough as it is. For me, a typical 10 gal batch takes about 2.5 gal (depending on the amount of grain) of boiling wort to raise the temp to 168-70.


While Noonan's book is very good, he seems very decoction-biased.
 

Vance Barnes
Advanced Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 903
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Friday, August 06, 2004 - 03:18 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The longer boil is not "necessary" but then neither is a decoction. The longer the boil the more meloidian (sp?) reactions will occur which are what supossedly give the maltier flavor.

Ron, you don't say what type of system you will be mashing with. I've found that I have to supplement the decoction with direct heat to exactly hit the rests. With more practice I'm sure it could be dialed in exactly. If you mash in a cooler I'd have boiling and cold water handly to adjust the step temps.

My experiance with decoctions is that they actually take less time than the same schedule as strictly a step mash. When you add the decoction you ramp up much faster than when just using RIMS or HERMS. Of course if you use boiling water infusions normally that doesn't apply.
 

Shane Mock
Junior Member
Username: Pivoman

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Saturday, August 07, 2004 - 11:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Quite a detailed mash schedule, Zardoz!! I typically mash-in at 125-127F for 15 min, then do a double decoction from there. I'll boil decoctions for lighter beer styles such as German Pils for 10-15 min, but go 20-30 min for Czech Pils and other styles.

I would say after you think you've taken enough volume for a decoction, take a bit more. You can always add it to the rest mash slowly to avoid overshooting your temperature, but it's a pain to undershoot it and have to raise the entire mash because you didn't take a big enough decoction.

Most German Pils today is step-mashed in a 50C-62C-72C-77C schedule. German brewers will decoct a Weizen, though. I prefer decoction-mashed brews, even though they take a bit longer.
 

Ron Siddall
New Member
Username: Zardoz

Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thank all for the information.

Dave, I did not include a protein rest because I have read that well modified malts do not require this stage. I did include a rest at 105F as and acid rest to ensure my pH has in range.

I was worried that the ramp up from 105F to 145F was a bit steep. I used some calculations from John Palmer and they came out using 3.6 qts of mash which would be about 40% of the mash volume.

My system is a gravity feed 3-tier with a 5 gallon Gott cooler as the mash tun.

Shane, your 50C-62C-72C-77C schedule....does that also hold for well modified malts?
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 3306
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Monday, August 09, 2004 - 05:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't think I'd worry about the acid rest unless you know your water needs it. That would make your decoction schedule easier.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Shane Mock
Junior Member
Username: Pivoman

Post Number: 76
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 02:18 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ron, you could skip the protein rest for well-modified malt. Just go 62-72-77 and that should work fine and save time. If you do the protein rest with well-modified malt, I wouldn't hang around too long (10 min or so) at 50C.
 

Chris Smedley
Member
Username: Lookitschris

Post Number: 241
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 03:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Another question for decoction brewers: How do you pull your decoctions? I've only decocted twice (two singly-decocted weissbiers) and both times I've pulled the decoction with a kitchen strainer - resulting in messy and splashy mashes. Is there an easier way to transfer thick mash?
 

Vance Barnes
Advanced Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 904
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Tuesday, August 10, 2004 - 01:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Is there an easier way to transfer thick mash?

Sure, don't transfer it. Transfer the wort and boil the mash in the MT. Then just add the wort back to it.

I only have a small burner under my MT so this won't work for me. I use the big tea strainer method. Not too messy. Not sure what you mean by kitchen strainer. If you're using a collander then get a tea strainer with a handle.