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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2005 * Archive through May 05, 2005 * A couple Wee Heavy questions < Previous Next >

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John Thompson
Intermediate Member
Username: Jt100

Post Number: 365
Registered: 04-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 12:27 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I want to carmelize a gallon of the first runnings. How much should I reduce it? Approx how long will it take (I know there are variables, but I'm looking for a ballpark figure) and when do I add it back to the boil?
Thanks for any info or hints.
 

David Woods
Advanced Member
Username: Beericon

Post Number: 570
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 01:58 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

John,

It will depend on a lot of things; diameter of boiling vessel, BTU's of heat added, ect. I just added the first gallon of my sparge runoff and then turned on the flame. I boiled it down to about a quart, took about 30 minutes for me. It was like LME, very syrup like.

The FG was very high on mine so hop acordingly, I didn't expect an FG of 1.026. (OG 1.071)

The easiest way to reduce the first runnings would be to use a double boiler, no scorching with that contraption. But I don't have enough room on the range top for all those pots. Yet!

David
 

Tom Meier
Member
Username: Brewdawg96

Post Number: 235
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 04:34 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

take the first gallon or so and boil it down until you can't stand it anymore. make syrup out of it.

add it back in whenever you have syrup
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 1620
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I reduced a gal. to about a pint, maybe a little more, in an hour while boiling the rest of the wort. Added it back for about the last 15 min. of the boil. Thick syrup is what you're wanting. And have some pancakes handy to clean out the pot with. You'll see, er taste what I mean.
 

Pete Mazurowski
Member
Username: Pete_maz

Post Number: 126
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Anyone ever tried doing this with a gallon of DME & water, instead of the first runnings? I wouldn't mind giving this a try at some point, but if I could do it in advance and save time on brew day, that would be a big bonus.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1439
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:29 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sounds like LME... :-)

I usually reduce about a quart or so (not a gallon), as it takes less time and still has a good effect, as well as more beer left!
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 3116
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have nothing of any value to contribute to this thread, but...

Last night I went to the Blackfoot River Brewery taproom. Wednesday is cheap growler night. For $5, I got a half-gallon growler of 7.75% Strong Scottish Ale, plus a free pint of the stuff to drink while waiting for my growler to get filled. Is this a great country or what?

http://www.blackfootriverbrewing.com/beers.html
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 2958
Registered: 01-2002
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chumley, in a country where a sixpack of domestic swill is $10 and a 330 ml bottle of Chimay blue label is $4, the notion of a growler of strong scottish ale and a free pint all for $5 is enough to make me salivate.
 

Mike
Member
Username: Macker

Post Number: 121
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I do not think I would use a DME or LME concoction, but then again, I have never done that. I usually use the first gallon of runnings, boil it down to a quart or less, then add it back at knockout.

I wonder what the Jedi Master of this technique would think? Skot, are you out there?
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 1621
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Guess you could steep some peated malt with your water and DME before reducing it

Not really, but just using DME would not have the same flavor profile unless your grain bill is only base malt. You wouldn't have the flavor contributions of any other grains used in the grain bill. You should still get the carmel flavors though. Give it a try and report back.
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 610
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Alright...

Lots of bad information going on here...

DME and LME are not carmelized sugars...

Here is a recent mail that I sent out concerning carmelization of wort in an IIPA:

-------------------------------------

Hi Ken,

Just remember that the goal is not just to boil down the first runnings but to achieve carmelization of the sugars.

On several occasions I have done single malt IPAs, Pilseners, Viennas and such where I have carmelized the 1st runnings. The resulting beers have in my opinion been fantastic.

I have also found that knowing how much to carmelize for any given style is a bit of a crap shoot. For instance for a wee heavy I would say boil down 1 gallon per 5.5 gallon batch but for a standard 1.050 Pils or Vienna you may want to carmelize only 1/2 gallon of 1st runnings on a 5.5
batch.

It definitely added an almost mock decoction like quality to the German Lagers.


Despite what Bill states about a Hoppy IPA I say go for it. I did an IMPERIAL IPA that was just amazing with the carmelized first runnings.

Some carmelization facts from a couple different sites out there:

http://www.cheftalk.com/content/displayterm.cfm?termid=57

Carmelization

Occurs when sugars in a food product are browned as a result of heat being applied. Sugar will begin to carmelize at 320 degrees F. Generally it occurs between 320f and 360f.

----------------------------------------

C'ya

-Scott
 

Mike
Member
Username: Macker

Post Number: 122
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 03:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

VANCE! YOU SAID THE "P" WORD!

For me, it is not any extra time. Even if it added time, I would do the boil down for this style of beer. It really adds a fantastic quality that I have come to enjoy in my Scotch Ale.

Macker
 

Pete Mazurowski
Member
Username: Pete_maz

Post Number: 127
Registered: 07-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 04:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, I know LME & DME are not caramelized sugars, but I was thinking of mixing up a gallon to emulate the first runnings, and boil down to a quart or so. Just trying to think of a way to do it in advance, that's all.
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 611
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 04:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pete,

That sounds like cutting corners. I also think that it would potentially alter the flavor of the beer that you took the time to mash.

Take the time...

C'ya!

-Scott
 

Joseph Listan
Advanced Member
Username: Poonstab

Post Number: 656
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pete,

If you want to "save time" by doing it in advance, but still do it right:

Freeze 0.5 to 1.0 gallons of first runnings from your next batch and then use it in the following one as detailed above.
 

Patrick C.
Intermediate Member
Username: Patrickc

Post Number: 326
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 04:58 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

320 to 360? Definitely not going to get that in a double boiler, unless it's also a pressure cooker.
That's almost pure sugar by the time you've boiled it down to get to that temperature. Is it not a solid chunk? Most candy making sites I've seen list carmelization at around 250F. Is there a difference?

(Message edited by Patrickc on April 28, 2005)
 

Ron Siddall
Member
Username: Listerdister

Post Number: 175
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 05:37 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chumley, what is their Lightfoot Pilsner like? What would you compare it to?
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 3122
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 05:55 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

The Lightfoot isn't one of my favs, I suspect because they (like most small microbreweries)lack facilities to lager it long enough. I would compare it to a green-tasting Sam Adams pilsner.

Now their Single Malt IPA and Organic Porter, those are beers to die for.
 

davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw

Post Number: 1072
Registered: 03-2001
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 05:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Beer is not a matter of life or death. It's much more important than that.
 

Vance Barnes
Senior Member
Username: Vancebarnes

Post Number: 1622
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, April 28, 2005 - 07:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

VANCE! YOU SAID THE "P" WORD!

Guess I was trolling today

Maybe for a pale ale where the grain bill is mostly base malt the reduction/carmelization of a DME or LME solution might work. It doesn't add any time to my brewday just doing the first runnings so I see no reason to cut corners either.