Topics Topics Help/Instructions Help Edit Profile Profile Member List Register  
Search Last 1 | 3 | 7 Days Search Search Tree View Tree View  

Visit The Brewery's sponsor!
Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2005 * Archive through July 15, 2005 * Pilsener-like ale recommendations? < Previous Next >

  Thread Last Poster Posts Pages Last Post
  ClosedClosed: New threads not accepted on this page        

Author Message
 

Addison Berry
New Member
Username: Addison

Post Number: 6
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 11:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My Mom loves PU and keeps bugging me to brew some. I've only ever brewed ales and while I'd like to play with lagers some day, I only have one brew fridge so temp control and space are at a premium (and when I start with lagers, I want a marzen :-)).

I know that I can't replicate PU with an ale but is there an ale recipe that is hoppy and light that might keep my mom happy? I normally brew all-grain but any suggestions are welcome.
 

Chris Vejnovich
Member
Username: Cjv85vmax

Post Number: 134
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 12:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Addison,

Here is what I would do if you have the ability. I would make a 75% pale malt/25% German Munich beer and hop it with only fresh Saaz to about 35-45 IBU. The key is to use fresh grains (American 2-row or good Pils malt, not British/American Pale Ale malt). Use very soft water. If you use muni water, treat that water to get rid of Chloramines and then cut it either 50/50 your water to distilled, or 25/75 your water to distilled.

If you must single infusion the beer then go low 148-150, and hold for 60-90mins to make sure that all conversion is done. You can mess with pH if you want. I am not very well versed in adjusting pH. But I believe many of the brewers here never mess with it anyway.

I would then ferment this beer with 1056/WLP001 at a very low temp of 60F if you can achieve that(pitch a huge starter and aerate well). Give the beer a good month or two of lagering time and then let us know how it turns out. I have never attempted to brew the beer above that I am describing, but I have thought much about the idea and the possiblities in which an ale brewer could produce a beer a lot like a Czech/German Pilsner without low fermentation temps and special yeast handling.

I hope this all helps. I am sure that others who post here may have some good information for you as well.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 3360
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 04:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What Chris says. I would only add that you should try first wort hopping a portion of the Saaz. I really like how FWH works in pilsners.

If you are going to follow Chris's advice and use 25% Munich, be sure its good continental light munich, and not the crappy 6-row 10°L munich from Briess. You can also consider 10% cara-pils/10% munich, or 10% cara-pils/5% aromatic as alternatives, but I like the 25% Munich suggestion as an attempt to make a PU like beer.

Aim for an OG between 1.045 and 1.055. I have had several get to around 1.058-1.060, which I have found to be a little thick.
 

Chris Vejnovich
Member
Username: Cjv85vmax

Post Number: 139
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 04:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I second the advice from Chumley. One can really tell the difference between Briess Munich and Weyermann. You just have to taste the malt before you ever brew with it. Carapils sounds like a good idea as well.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1594
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 05:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

In addition, if you're ok with using chico yeast, then you may also consider nottingham, which ferments very well at 56-60 degrees, and is neutral. If you brew 10 gal, you could try both (separately).
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 4818
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 05:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ya know, I may in the minority, but I don't consider Nott neutral. I find it has a tartness that's distracting an a lot of beers I would a neutral yeast in. That's the main reason I'm so happy with US56. To me at least, it's much more neutral than Nott.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1596
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 05:21 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Haven't tried the us56, though I read the thread on it and will be giving it a try. I find Nott neutral at 56-60 degrees, but everyone's got different sensitivities to tastes...

Of course, I won't be foolish enough to ferment the us56 at 75 degrees, I mean, really... :-) :-)
 

George Schmidt
Advanced Member
Username: Gschmidt

Post Number: 555
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 05:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've got a "pils ale" in the keg now that used S56 and I'm a little disappointed. It has some of that tartness that I've disliked in Nottingham, but not as strong. (This is the one I'm ordering the isoalpha extract for, actually) It definately doesn't taste like a lager. How about 1007 instead? I haven't gotten around to trying it yet, but have heard good things.
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ~~Robert A. Heinlein: The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 4819
Registered: 01-2001
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 05:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, 1007 and 1056 are my faves for pseudo-lagers. But you've still got to ferment them at 60. But it's interesting to hear you mention that you find tartness in the US56, George. Guess I'll have to do some research tonight!
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Greg Beron
Intermediate Member
Username: Gberon

Post Number: 423
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 05:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good call, George. I've had good results making using Wyeast 1007 to make "lager-like" ales. It helps to keep the primary in the low 60s and you do have to give it a little cold storage time, even if it's in the keg, because it's slow to flocculate.
Greg Beron
Culver City Home Brewing Supply
www.brewsupply.com
 

Chris Vejnovich
Member
Username: Cjv85vmax

Post Number: 140
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 06:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have some US56 on order from Northern Brewer. I will get some US type pale malt, or use some of my pils and make a psuedo pils beer myself and report back results. It may be a month or so before you hear the results though. I have never used US56 before, but if it is anything like 1056/001, I have never had any tartness from my beers. In fact my american style ales that I have used the chico strains for have almost been to clean for me when fermented in the low 60's(60-62F). But maybe my pallet is not as sensitive as others.
 

George Schmidt
Advanced Member
Username: Gschmidt

Post Number: 556
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 06:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Flavors are hard to describe, obviously. Plus, I haven't used nottingham in 10 or 11 months, so I may be mis-remembering. This ale has a 'sharpness/tartness' that's mostly aroma and reminds of what I think I remember of Nott. It's not overwhelming by any means and would likely be covered by a decent amount of hops. But this was an experiment at a CACA-type and is only hopped to about 18 IBU's. I ordered the 'hop drops' today and will knock it up to about 30 IBU's and let you know if the tartness goes away.

Hell, it could be the malt, come to think of it. This was the first time I've used the Scherer pale ale malt and there wasn't much else in this beer. Tastes like a yeast flavor, though.
Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors -- and miss. ~~Robert A. Heinlein: The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
 

Chris Vejnovich
Member
Username: Cjv85vmax

Post Number: 141
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 07:03 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

George, I have made Cream ales before with just 18 IBU's and can say that the yeast can impart a major impact on the flavor(not that it doesn't in other beers). I suspect that the beer I am thinking about making will be much different. I'm thinking about 40IBU's with liberty hops, 75/25 pils/munich, 25/75 my water/distilled water, and fermented at 60F with 1 pkg of US56. Like I said before, I'll report back about it in a few months. If your in Lincoln at that time, feel free to stop by for a taste test.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 3361
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 07:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I don't know about the Schreier brand, but I would stay away from any pale ale malt when brewing a pils, IMHO.
 

Chris Colby
Intermediate Member
Username: Chriscolby

Post Number: 337
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 07:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I know this will draw some howls, but, if you want to make a lager, use lager yeast -- even at ale temperatures.

Low temperature ale fermentations taste like ester-less ales (and, in my opinion, are somewhat blah). High temperature lager fermentations taste like somewhat fruity lagers.

Don't believe me? Check out the Wyeast web site; they claim that their 2124 (Bohemian Lager) yeast can be used up to 75 °F (although sulfur production gets shut off).

Or better yet, next time you make a lager yeast starter, pour off some of the beer into a closed, sanitized container, stick it in the fridge and taste the clear (flat) beer the next day. It isn't too bad. At least, it's a better "fake" lager than a low temperature ale.


Chris Colby
Bastrop, TX
 

Skotrat
Advanced Member
Username: Skotrat

Post Number: 806
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 07:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Hey Now,

I have used 2124 up to about 68f with fantastic results. Dunno if I would puch it to 75f though.

I have also used SAFLAGER with great results in the upper 60's

Thanks Chris
 

Pacman
Advanced Member
Username: Pacman

Post Number: 675
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 08:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

What about Wyeast 2112 Cali Common or WL810 San Fran Lager... they are very clean when fermented inthe 60's...
Damn Brewing's Fun!!!! Kölsch Krusader!
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 3363
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 08:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Interesting...I think it must have something to do with the strain...the one time I fermented a lager yeast warm (WLP833 German Bock in the mid 60s), it definitely came out fruitier than normal...that was a beer brewed in the early fall...when I used the same yeast again after my basement temperature dropped into the low 50s, the resultant beer was much cleaner.
 

Chris Vejnovich
Member
Username: Cjv85vmax

Post Number: 143
Registered: 06-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 08:28 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Chris, I understand what you are saying. But I respectfully and completely disagree with you. I have tasted some lagers that the fermentation temp got away from the person and the beer tasted not like an ale or a lager. It just tasted bad. Esters and off flavors galore. One lager in particular that I remember tasted like "I can't believe its not butter". Now maybe some other things were part of the problems. But overall I think that the dominating factors of lager yeasts are that they accenuate clean malty flavors. I think that there are many different flavors that can be brought out by a good lager yeast, but predominately lager yeasts bring out clean maltiness. Ofcourse, good malt is very important to a pils or psuedo pils/ale INHO. But I am a student of Greg Noonan and think quality of the malt you use is one of the most important parts of brewing a lager beer. I have read the New Brewing Lager Beer cover to cover. Even if some of the book is way over my head from a scientific perspective, I have incorporated much of his information into all of my beers whether ale or lager and it has improved my quality drastically.

And on the otherhand. I challenge you to really be able to tell the differnce. I love it when people bring beers to our meetings and guys will spout off what style they think the beer falls under and the brewer intended something totally different. But in the end, I suppose its all up to the homebrewer what he/she wants to brew.

Peace
 

Jim Keaveney
Advanced Member
Username: Jimkeaveney

Post Number: 710
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 08:36 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"I have also used SAFLAGER with great results in the upper 60's"

that seemed to be the consensus among a lot of people on a thread a month or so ago. fermenting warmer actually produced less fruity results so people say. i am putting the theory to test on a schwarz which feremented at ~60 and is going to 2ndary tonight
 

Addison Berry
New Member
Username: Addison

Post Number: 8
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 01:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

hm, good suggestions ya'll. I may just go ahead and split the batch between an ale and lager yeast with Chris' basic recipe (and yes FWH), both at 60F and see the difference. now, to decide on the yeasts...

I can't brew until August (between work and vacation) so if anyone else does experiment, please give us feedback.
 

don price
Advanced Member
Username: Donzoid

Post Number: 682
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 12:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

AB,

I would try the steam beer (WY2112 and others) and chico (WY1056, WLP001, US56) yeasts. I think the temperature ranges overlap nicely.

I have 10 gallons of fake dortmumnder, basically a hard water pilsner, finishing up with the US56 yeast. Can't wait to get into it...

Don
 

Vince Turley
Member
Username: Vince

Post Number: 204
Registered: 05-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 01:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Why not just brew a Kolsch if you are looking for a Lager-like Ale? I've done several batches this year, and although it is no PU, it is clean, crisp, and lager-like. Grain bill is mostly German Pilsner, hops are Hallertauer (bittering) and Saaz (flavor and aroma). Ferment in the low 60's, and then "lager" it in your serving fridge for several weeks... if you can wait that long!

Try Pacman's "Black Widow Kolsch", mine is turning out fantastic!
 

Jim Keaveney
Advanced Member
Username: Jimkeaveney

Post Number: 714
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 01:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Kolsch is really nothing at all like a Czech Pils. much lighter bodied and no real malt flavor plus the judicious use of wheat (all of these thing may be related). a classic german light summer beer? yes, but not a czech pils.
 

Paul Hayslett
Advanced Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 785
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 02:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

> I would try the steam beer (WY2112 and others) ...

I dunno. I tried 2112 in a fake rauchbier and the results were foul. Just foul. Way too much fruit and nothing like a clean lager taste at all. I don't think it would do well in a pils.
 

Jim Keaveney
Advanced Member
Username: Jimkeaveney

Post Number: 715
Registered: 02-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 04:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

tasted the schwarz made with saflager and fermented ~60F. No fruit at all, but it did have a tartness. We'll see how it conditions over the next six weeks but as of now, i prefer the cooler fermented version i made last year with saflager, same recipe.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1603
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 04:57 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I concur with Paul on the WLP810/WY2112 fruity comments, especially in a lighter beer.
 

Pacman
Advanced Member
Username: Pacman

Post Number: 677
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 05:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

what temps are you guys fermenting the WL810/W2112 at to get fruit?????
Damn Brewing's Fun!!!! Kölsch Krusader!
 

Paul Hayslett
Advanced Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 788
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 05:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Pac, my rauchbier went through primary at about 62F to 64F. Warmer than planned -- the weather turned warm just after I brewed. I wanted to let it secondary in the garage in the 30s but the warm weather persisted, so it never went below about 45F - 50F. The result was not as fruity as an English ale, but it was definitely not a lager. Nowhere near clean enough. The combo with the smoke was nasty. I think the fruitiness would really stick out in a pils.
 

Pacman
Advanced Member
Username: Pacman

Post Number: 678
Registered: 04-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 06:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

that's odd Paul... i use those all the time in the 62-64° range and don't get any fruit at all... i mainly use them in my creamale and it's clean as can be....
Damn Brewing's Fun!!!! Kölsch Krusader!
 

Mike
Member
Username: Macker

Post Number: 149
Registered: 03-2003
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 07:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have used the SF Lager strain in CAPs, CACAs, various Pilsners, Bocks, Viennas, and Dunkels, and have never had an issue with any fruitiness. The warmest I have fermented was 62F.

Paul, was your temp ambient or the temp of the wort? As well, do you think some of it had to do with the beer being a rauch?
 

Paul Hayslett
Advanced Member
Username: Paulhayslett

Post Number: 789
Registered: 02-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 07:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Mike, it was the temp on the stick-on thermometer on the bucket/carboy, so I guess that's somewhere between ambient and internal for primary. Yes, I'm sure the off-flavors are more obvious in the rauchbier because they don't play well with the smoke.

Then again, maybe there was some other reason for the off-flavors in that beer. Perhaps I had stressed the yeast or something. I'm going to try again when the weather gets cold and we'll see.
 

Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead

Post Number: 1604
Registered: 03-2002
Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 08:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just did a steam 2 months ago, fermented 62-65, and it has a slight fruity aftertaste, which I actually like, as I tend to overhop steams.....shocking...
 

Tim Polster
Member
Username: Bassman

Post Number: 109
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, July 08, 2005 - 06:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My vote is for 1007.

I was looking for the same type of beer and 1007 came up the most on the beer forums.

My beer turned out great.

I added 1lb. of rye which added some spice but more importantly dried the taste a bit.

Good luck!