| Author |
Message |
    
ELK
Senior Member
Username: Elkski
Post Number: 1418
Registered: 01-2003
Posted From: 67.177.25.240
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 01:42 am: | 
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I have used Promash for a couple of years. I have a technical degree. I have always been frustrated with the user friendlyness or lack of in the Promash program. I recently posted a small list of improvement suggestions in the wish list area on the promash site. I thought my suggestions were very good and well thought out. I Went to look for a response today and my post had been deleted as well as my user name. I had the same thing happen near 2 years ago shortly after I purchased the software. It seems this Jeff guys doesn't appreciate any comments that point out that his software isn't perfect.
Anyone else have this problem? |
Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1732
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 01:47 am: |
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Really???
I have always found Jeff to be very interested in improving the product |
Josef
New Member
Username: Josef
Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2003
Posted From: 69.239.164.234
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 02:29 am: |
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I have found Jeff to be extremely helpful and has answered all my questions (including giving me actual equations used for estimating various parameters). I have used Promash both for home brewing and on a professional level and it is a good program. Jeff has been very open to improving the software. Let us see what Jeff has to say. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2407
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 03:54 am: |
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I will be impressed when he straightenes out the honey default ppppg numbers. Also I hate the way he farts around with the recipe info with it at the end of the list. I want to know what the recipe consists of, not some nonsense about the style parameters, but that is just me.
Dan
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ELK
Senior Member
Username: Elkski
Post Number: 1419
Registered: 01-2003
Posted From: 67.177.25.240
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 03:55 am: |
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My comments were directed specifically at the printouts and how I think they could be neater, more meaningful and use less paper. I also expressed my dislike of all the separate windows that open up. I suggested a full page screen with most everything on it like a control panel in a chemical plant. I saw my post after I posted it and my user name and password were in auto input mode so I'm sure I didn't mess that up. |
Doug W
Member
Username: Pivorat
Post Number: 132
Registered: 08-2004
Posted From: 24.247.206.206
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 09:49 am: |
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I will be impressed when he straightenes out the honey default ppppg numbers. Also I hate the way he farts around with the recipe info with it at the end of the list. I want to know what the recipe consists of, not some nonsense about the style parameters, but that is just me.
Dan
Dan, I think he leaves that in there just for you.
I love Promash too, and I will also say there no way to make everyone happy with this. ELK, if no such thing exists that meets what you look for write your own would be my suggestion.
Cheers,
Pivo |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2908
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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Not to pick on promash, I don't use it but I did look at the demo version and it is a nice software indeed, one of best as far as I've heard...
...I just like plain spreadsheets. That way you can easily do most things. Including graphing mash-steps and make simple reports for printout. It can also easily be connected to more advanced calculations and simulations by use of VB macros, and then just call the macros.
And if you want to change something, just go ahead and do it. You are in total control. As for support - I am sure many of us here use spreadsheets too so just ask away.
You don't need to be a programmer to use it. It is a little harder to get into and a little more technical, but once you get used to it I wouldn't want to go back.
Even to make small quick simulations, spreadsheets are quick and dirty. No need to spend time making GUI's. Just write in the sheet, maybe add a macros if necessary and you are up and running and have alot of graphing utilities. Not the best maybe, but decent for most quick tests.
/Fredrik |
Ned Buntline
Junior Member
Username: Ned_buntline
Post Number: 72
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 151.204.22.12
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 01:28 pm: |
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I've used Promash since the day it first hit the street. I've tried a few of the others, most recently BeerSmith. All of them are nice, but all of them have deficiencies -- just like any software program.
There are differences in calculations between the programs that result in small differentials, but in reality, I don't think it matters much. The object is to brew the same beer you made before with consistancy. All of these programs allow you to do this. I rarely print material, so the formatting doesn't bother me much.
The Promash separate window structure isn't too much for me to handle. I anchor the four windows I use the most -- Session, Recipe, Mash, and Notes -- in the four quads of my screen and find them very efficient.
Are there things I'd like to see? Sure. Is the program getting dated? A little. My biggest concern by no new versions is that Jeff's baby will loose it's market share as BeerSmith comes up the road. But I'm not sure that Jeff minds much. He has a day job, and the software really doesn't take much off the electric bill.
(Message edited by Ned Buntline on February 07, 2006) |
ELK
Senior Member
Username: Elkski
Post Number: 1422
Registered: 01-2003
Posted From: 67.177.25.240
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 01:29 pm: |
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What makes me mad at a company like Promash is the fact that I have had my improvement suggestion removed from the Promash message board-feature request page. Any improvement suggestion is going to sound negative if you point out why it is a good thing. Another good suggestion I stated was why not have a fixed MT and maybe fementer size setting and a warning message when
"MT capacity exceeded" for a given water ratio?
I could also say that there is not a very good print out for brew day that gives you a concise list and order of things to do and helpful hints along the way. Just think how helpful this software could be in providing a beginner printout with details and an order of to do's and approximate times required for brewing. I beg one of you to tell me you looked at these printouts the first time and thought they were above a D grade. I also suggested maybe a schematic representation of a brewery with HLT, MT . BK. Fermenters, and such like a control room has on a chemical plant. Its to bad the home brewer market is so small and has kept this guy from attacking this problem seriously. He needs to have some non coder marketers look at and specify his user interface and printout requirements and then code to that instead of coding first and then trying to make a nice user friendly product which is what I bet 100$ is how it went down. Some guy asked him about open source code in may of 04 and his response was negative and full of greed. I should charge for my improvement suggestions here.
Just think what a great product this could be. |
Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy
Post Number: 1250
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.109.85.19
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 01:55 pm: |
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I've been using Promash for a couple years now and I like it. It takes a little getting used to, but it's pretty sophisticated. I like the way you can edit the tables of grain, hops, yeast, etc. With that said, the printouts could be arranged much better and use less paper. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 4601
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 02:04 pm: |
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I wonder if there were problems with the ProMash server and if your messages might have been deleted in a crash at some point, ELK. It's not like Jeff to stifle dissenting opinions. Did you post your messages in the proper section of the board.
I think Jeff had (and still has) grand plans for a future version, but he has come to realize that he'll never pay his bills writing brewing software. Meanwhile there is the real world out there making demands on him.  |
Paul Erbe
Intermediate Member
Username: Perbe
Post Number: 416
Registered: 05-2001
Posted From: 12.27.22.67
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 02:08 pm: |
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I have always had good experiences with Promash. Are there things that could be improved, you bet. Its still better than anything else out there that I have seen.
Elk- IF you can design and create a better program, go for it. I think you will find that this is a very small market for a bunch of mostly cheap hobbyists. |
kev reh
Member
Username: Kevreh
Post Number: 114
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.250.64.66
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 02:17 pm: |
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Elk-
It sounds like you have a number of well thought out ideas. The only insight I can provide you comes from personal/professional experience. As a programmer/developer I'm always getting productive comments on various bells & whistles (the industry slang) that could be added to the software I develop. However, it always comes down to time and money. Consider that there may be 10 other people out there with other ideas.... If Jeff implemented all ideas then I'm sure this would become a full time job for him. Which I'm sure he wouldn't mind if Promash sold enough copies but that probably isn't the case.
So, don't take it personally and think he's dissing your ideas, just consider his side of things from a time/level of effort perspective. Maybe you could email him directly?
HTH,
Kevin |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2909
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 03:15 pm: |
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I am curious how many % of the homebrewers use a "brewing software" as opposed to spread sheets or pen&paper?
Any bets?
/Fredrik |
Jason Bentley
Junior Member
Username: Pacoustic
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2005
Posted From: 71.4.42.2
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 03:39 pm: |
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I checked out a few different home brewing software packages when I decided to jump into one. I tried ProMash and while it has some features in it I like I found I just did not like the multiple window style and the way some things were designed. I use StrangeBrew and for the most part am happy with it. There are a few things I would like to see implemented in it and I have found most of them are already on the improvements page at their website. I started out using pen and paper just to give me a better understanding of the math behind everything and think that doing so has made me if not a better brewer a better mathematician. I still use pen and paper to start formulating my recipe, but I then enter it into StrangeBrew to check everything and as a handy place to store the recipe. My suggestion is try them all and pick the one you like best. |
Beertracker
Senior Member
Username: Beertracker
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 207.155.34.42
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 03:49 pm: |
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I'm with some of the other guys and have found Jeffery Donovan to be usually very helpful and forthright about their product. In Jeff's defense, he's a very hardworking brewer and he's not the only one who works for ProMash™. There's several other writers & testers who also help maintain the website.
CHEERS! Beertracker
"From man's sweat and God's love, beer came into the world." ~ Saint Arnold of Metz (580-640) - Patron Saint of Brewers
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Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2408
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.195
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:01 pm: |
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Fredrik, I am a pencil and paper kind of guy. ( I have taken shots over this, oddly) A calculator helps a lot too, but I have been known to do long division when a calculator is not handy. The basic calculations are very straight forward. The less than basic seem to me to be marginally useful and not likely to cause me to change a recipe.
I don't like the illusion that is sometimes seen on brewboards that seems to infer that the software is a measurement of a character verses the actual fact that the software is just an approximation. Stress over which bitterness calculation is "best" is the most common example.
Dan
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Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 2018
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:06 pm: |
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http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipator
Not as many bells and whistles as promash, but it's free and it allows me to get consistent repeatable results w/o the pencil/paper approach. |
Bob Girolamo
Member
Username: Brewerbob
Post Number: 135
Registered: 06-2002
Posted From: 71.131.95.99
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:27 pm: |
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I have used Promash since '98 and love it. Before that I used Bob Regents, Brewers Calculator and before that it was paper and pencil.
I think the Promash site has had problems a few weeks ago when it was down for a day or so. Maybe, he got hit with a virus, system crash or whatever and lost your info. I've always known Jeffrey Donovan to be a straight up guy and always responded to any inquiries I had made in a VERY timely manner.
Ask not what your country can brew for you but, what you can brew for your country!
http://www.geocities.com/bob_girolamo
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Drew Pattison
Member
Username: Droopy
Post Number: 105
Registered: 06-2003
Posted From: 143.115.159.53
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 05:36 pm: |
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I dinked around on the demo of Promash for a while and it was too complicated for my tiny little mind. I do get the impression that Jeff is primarily a brewer that is tech oriented. With this in mind I would give a fair amount of leeway in terms of updates and whatnot. It's not like he/they are Microsoft or something...
I set up a spreadsheet that does a fair number of calcs for me and populates a Brew Day Procedure Sheet that I print and follow while brewing. It calcs all the volumes and temps based on the targets I input.
I used the Recipator for along time and occasionally still do to check my numbers. |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2910
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.246
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:11 pm: |
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I see your point Dan. Many formulas are certainly just approximations, though I happen to like formulas. But I agree that one should not get lost in the world of formuls themselves. This is very common, not just in brewing. People (often "engineers" take the formula to be the real thing, and forget what generated it and when it's valid. To me there is always a thought behind a formula, and the formula is just an expression of this thought. The thought is what is important.
To me models are somewhat natural and I find a beatuy in them. To modelling isn't just about producing numbers, it's more about trying to create an image of something. Actually, I always liked models, but never much liked "numbers", I never liked tables - a table that lists numbers with 10 decimals can be truly ugly. I'm much more of a x*y guy, rather than a 2.38090522 guy. This is why I like spreadsheets. I can have my formulas, but don't have to touch the dirty numbers.
/Fredrik |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 4605
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.229.8
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:15 pm: |
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I am a satisfied ProMash user, but I also have my own spreadsheet for a few things not included in ProMash (and a lot of things that are). Deriving the various formulas increased my knowledge of brewing math considerably. |
Michael
Advanced Member
Username: Hoppop
Post Number: 767
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 65.82.104.120
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 06:29 pm: |
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>> I have always been frustrated with the user friendlyness or lack of in the Promash program>>>
My old "software" was a spiral notebook that I began using when I started this hobby in '94. A few years ago I latched onto HBD Recipricator (sp?)....got Pro-Mash a couple of years ago. Generally, pleased with it...
Only nice to have would be able to open multiple recipe "windows" at the same time.
ELK, to your point, I rarely print anything hardcopy from it, but see your point...it does generate a lot of paper if you select all print options.
Overall, I am very pleased with the product. Hey, you can "virtual" brew! |
Mike Gutenkauf
New Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 11
Registered: 04-2005
Posted From: 64.68.169.121
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 11:25 pm: |
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I have used the demo version of Promash. It is nice. I prefer to use my brewing spreadsheet, since it is easily customized to my preferences, and the file format is portable. It is nice to use a spreadsheet for a more noble pursuit than work. |
Kevin Davis
Intermediate Member
Username: Ktdavis98
Post Number: 363
Registered: 12-2003
Posted From: 64.136.27.228
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 01:11 am: |
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I use BrewEaze, it has some faults, but it is free.
Kevin |
michael atkins
Intermediate Member
Username: Mga
Post Number: 350
Registered: 11-2003
Posted From: 216.170.58.10
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 03:06 am: |
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I too use Pro-Mash, and could not be happier with the program. I used to use the HBD Recipator, but when the board went down several years ago it was unavailable.
The service that Jeff provided me was excellent.
I originally had problems with the download (not because of the Pro-Mash) but because of my hardware and software configuration on an older computer. Jeff went above the call to duty getting me set up.
I do use the print programs more than other brewers.
I like to print each recipe about 3-4 times one goes to the "scale and mill area", another to the indoor work area (for measuring hops), (water calcultions etc.), and yet another to the fermentation room. A copy of pro-Mash follows the batch through the primary, secondary and the keg or bottles (stacked in case's). I print the session then fold it in 1/2 then fold it in 1/2 again. Fits nicely on the various stages of your beer.
I also print a copy of the inventory and keep it in the car. When I am at my LHBS 100 miles away I refer to it. I always have an idea what I need to buy.
Love This Hobby!
http://msnusers.com/micksbrewery
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Master B
Junior Member
Username: Cwixon
Post Number: 28
Registered: 11-2005
Posted From: 67.149.67.117
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 03:28 am: |
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Software and pencil and paper are the same idea- theory. and i've found that brewing does not involve a lot of complicated math. the parts that do really are significantly less influential, and usually do not incur major changes in your recipe or process. I'm for the "create your own" (software and of course beer), but then I'm a stubborn engineering student.
It is very important to remember that theory and practice are two different worlds, and we will never entirely describe the world we live in with the language of science; math that is.
my two and a half cents
"Sometimes the most intelligent drink beer to deal with the fools that surround him"
•••• Bush!!
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Ned Buntline
Junior Member
Username: Ned_buntline
Post Number: 74
Registered: 12-2005
Posted From: 151.204.22.12
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 03:43 am: |
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One problem with software tracking is that you are tied to the security of your hard drive. I found that out the hard way several years ago when my hard drive crashed and after paying money to retrieve files, found out that my Promash recipe and session files were corrupted. I sent them to Jeff, who gave it a valient effort. But in the end, he couldn't do anything with them.
It was then that the Internet came along to save me. I did google searches on my recipes (I had given most of them out through newsgroups or other sites over the years), and to my joy, found all but two of them. I've since made it a practice to keep a separate logbook of my recipes. That, I keep in my fireproof safe. |
dhacker
Member
Username: Dhacker
Post Number: 200
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 66.21.193.182
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 12:49 pm: |
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Ned . . NED,
ALWAYS back up your data!!  |
Skotrat
Senior Member
Username: Skotrat
Post Number: 1735
Registered: 04-2003
Posted From: 24.61.120.214
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 02:25 pm: |
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After reading Mr. Listermanns arrogant responses to this thread I have even less respect for him than I did before.
Very Self Serving in my opinion. |
davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw
Post Number: 1424
Registered: 03-2001
Posted From: 65.163.6.62
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 02:58 pm: |
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Heya, ELK, I was digging around the PM message board looking for an old post and actually found a recent one where Jeffery stated something to the effect of a problem with the server. So perhaps that is what happened to your post. He's too good a guy to censor someone. |
John Ferens
Junior Member
Username: John_ferens
Post Number: 73
Registered: 05-2003
Posted From: 68.234.152.92
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 05:32 pm: |
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/Fredrik - While I can run a spreadsheet, I would rather spend my valuable free time brewing (I have kids and travel at times for the "job that pays the bills" thing). I use Promash and am happy with it though I would agree with others that it could use some modernization.
John. |
Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik
Post Number: 2925
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.246
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 06:04 pm: |
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That makes great sense John. I guess we all brew for slightly different reasons. I am admittedly far from doing it the easiest way, and it was never the intention either, then I wouldn't have gotten into this. Some just "want to brew" and get som good beer, while some (myself included) actually like the geeky side of things as well. It's part of the fun for me. I'd rather trade away the practical side if I could. If I had a robot that would execute my commands at brew day, I'd love to have one, and I could focues on the other things - like programming the robot
/Fredrik |
Guy C
Intermediate Member
Username: Ipaguy
Post Number: 394
Registered: 09-2003
Posted From: 24.6.136.251
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 07:53 pm: |
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I posted in the "Features Request" forum of the Promash message board on 3/21/05 and received a prompt response from Jeff on 3/22/05. The post and response are both still there. I disagree with the assertion that Jeff is not open to constructive criticism. In fact, I believe he encourages it. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every person's request be implemented, no matter how good the idea seems to the individual presenting it. It's ultimately Jeff's decision to decide what to implement, as it should be, and I think he's done a great job so far. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2413
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.195
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 09:42 pm: |
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LOL,welcome back Mr. Abene!
<After reading Mr. Listermanns arrogant responses to this thread I have even less respect for him than I did before.
Very Self Serving in my opinion.>
Please expand on your remarks, I am very interested in seeing what, exactly, drove you to write them.
Dan
(Message edited by listermann on February 09, 2006)
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davidw
Senior Member
Username: Davidw
Post Number: 1425
Registered: 03-2001
Posted From: 65.163.6.62
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 09:55 pm: |
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(insert theme music from movie 'Jaws' here) |
Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 2026
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:20 pm: |
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dah dah........dah dah........
(Message edited by hophead on February 09, 2006) |
Hophead
Senior Member
Username: Hophead
Post Number: 2027
Registered: 03-2002
Posted From: 167.4.1.38
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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It's a trick, he couldn't have less respect for ya to begin with...
Recipator needs to update grain & hop types, and add more hop additions!
(Message edited by hophead on February 09, 2006) |
Ken Anderson
Senior Member
Username: Ken75
Post Number: 1379
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 69.168.141.10
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 11:53 pm: |
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Hophead, I tried...
dunt dunt... dunt dunt...
Wasn't sure if it was the right key though, so I snuffed it!
If we need to, we'll move up to that screeching thing from that "Psycho" scene. |
Dan Listermann
Senior Member
Username: Listermann
Post Number: 2418
Registered: 03-2004
Posted From: 216.215.203.195
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 02:41 am: |
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" It's a trick, he couldn't have less respect for ya to begin with... "
An excellent point, Hophead.
Dan
--This space is again being left intentionally blank.-
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Steve Pierson
Intermediate Member
Username: Stevepierson
Post Number: 279
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 65.101.79.228
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 05:56 am: |
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quote:Recipator needs to update grain & hop types, and add more hop additions!
Hophead - You probably already know this, but you can add your own grain and hop varieties to the Recipator. There is always one blank line at the bottom of the grain and hop sections - just type in the grain/hop variety and other needed information and they will be added to the calculations. Another blank line appears when you recalculate the page. No way to enter more timed hop additions, that I know of, unfortunately ...
Otherwise, the Recipator is just another great feature of this board. Thanks to Pat and the other folks who contribute their time and efforts to this little corner of the homebrew world.
None of us knows more than all of us. - Bill Herzog
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Brews and Views Archive 2006 
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