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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2006 * Archive through December 23, 2006 * WY1388 just keeps on chugging < Previous Next >

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Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2023
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 05:17 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I finally did up Denny's Dubbel recipe and used WY1388 for the first time. This yeast is just like the chimay yeast in that it starts quick but sure takes its time finishing. It has been almost 3 weeks now and it is still fermenting. I haven't taken a gravity reading yet but since I shake the fermenter every day to make sure the CO2 does build up and become toxic I am sure that the bubbles I see every 10 to 20 seconds are the result of fermentation and not off gassing.

There was a thread a while ago where a brewer reported about 50% of the brewers in his club has stuck fermentations with this yeast. Based on what I am seeing, if they racked off the yeast after a week or two they yeast may not have been finished.

-Doug
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 1809
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.4.202.69
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 06:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, I agree with you on the WY1388 and WLP500 yeasts. They do take a LOOONG time to finish. My last couple of batches took 6 weeks, but they did ferment dry!

I'm doing a Chimay Grand Reserve clone now (pitched yeast yesterday) and it is going like a banshee. I pitched the yeast at 67F, it's not 69F and rising. I'm planning on letting it go up to 78F (if it gets that high), then when the ferment slows add some heat to get it in the low 80s. I want to see if that will make if finish quickly.

It's reported that Chimay completes their fermentation is just a few days (can't remember how many specifically, but less than a week). They let it naturally rise to 82F.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 4425
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 10:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I brewed a dubbel with WLP500 that took about 4 weeks to ferment this summer. The beer tasted awful for about 6 weeks after, but it has been tasting better and better each passing week. OTOH, I brewed a Chimay blue clone on the yeast cake, and it was done in a week....and it tasted great from the beginning. Go figure.
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 1810
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.4.202.69
Posted on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I grew up the WLP500 yeast to 5.7L on a stirplate. I counted the yeast, and pitched approx. 1.7 million cells/ml/degree plato. That stuff is going like a rocket even after putting about 40 drops of foam control in it.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6043
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 05:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, take a gravity reading...my bet is that it's done.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Chumley
Senior Member
Username: Chumley

Post Number: 4433
Registered: 02-2003
Posted From: 63.118.227.254
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 05:41 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I agree with Denny....and if I drag you down by aligning myself with your views, Denny....well, I'm sorry in advance.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2027
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 06:25 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I won't be cracking that bucket open until after next weekend when I return from a trip. Last night I gave it a shake and it did not bubble so I bet it is done as well. I know the bubbles meaning nothing but with a shake every day there would be no more bubbles after a while once fermentation is done.

Chumley, I align my views with Denny! I did his recipe after all.

-Doug
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6044
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 - 06:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

When I used the 1388 on a Duvel clone recently, the gravity dropped sharply at first, but it took 3 weeks to get it all the way down to where I knew it should finish.

I'm too bouyant to be dragged down by anyone....
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3498
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.230
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 06:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, I am curious to your reciepe and procedure? What was the OG, grainbill and yeast preps? I haven't tried that yeast but from all these reports I think I have to try this one someday, it sounds interesting.

/Fredrik
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 1829
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.4.202.69
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 03:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, I made a Duvel clone that turned out just great! It was nearly identical to the real thing, but had just a tad less barnyard flavor, and just a tad more citrus. I liked mine better actually. Here's a link to the thread:

http://hbd.org/discus/messages/34426/39078.html
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3499
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 213.114.44.230
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 04:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Richard, how many days did it take to hit FG?

Did you get any good phenolics?

/Fredrik
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 1830
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.4.202.69
Posted on Thursday, November 30, 2006 - 07:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik, I bottled 6 weeks after I pitched the yeast. I fermented around 70F. I used the yeast from a prior batch of 1.060 beer (Blonde Bimbo). It might have reached FG sooner, and I might just have been lazy about bottling (I can't remember).

phenolics - mild citrus, alcohol barely detectable, very mild barnyard.
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 1836
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.4.202.69
Posted on Saturday, December 02, 2006 - 02:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Wow! I brewed a batch of Chimay Grand Reserve clone last monday. OG was 1.083. Yesterday (4 days later) it was down to 1.016. I pitched a ton of healthy yeast, O2'ed twice and it was going like a rocket for 2 days. Yeast was pitched at 67F and I let it rise to 78F (thermowell in beer) then the chest freezer kicked on. Last time I brewed this beer it took 6 weeks to finish at 68.

So how does it taste you ask? Jury's still out. Seemed to have quite a bit of fruity esters, and for some reason it's not as dark as it should be so I'm missing that rumminess.
 

Andrew Bales
Intermediate Member
Username: Bales

Post Number: 390
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 65.28.53.99
Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 12:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Richard - try a tablespoon of molasses, unless the beer is really dry.
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2028
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Fredrik,
Here is the recipe:
Chimay-Be Denny Conn
11 lb. 2 row pale malt
1 lb. 10L Munich
.5 lb. Special B
.5 lb. wheat malt
.5 lb. biscuit malt
.5 lb. crystal 60
1 lb. dark candi sugar (or sub 1 lb. cane sugar and 1 oz. carafa for color)

1.25 oz. Spalt 5.1% 60 min. (6.375 AAU)
.5 oz. Spalt 20 min. (2.55 AAU)

mash at 150 for 60 min.

OG=1.078 (a little on the strong side)


Here is my procedure
Heat water, throw in cooler, stir in grain, close lid, have a couple of beers over a period of an hour, stir, wait 10 minutes, run off, add heated water, stir, wait 10 minutes, runoff second charge, boil for 60 minutes following the hop schedule, add sugar at flame out, chill to 80F-90F, throw in fermenter, throw fermenter into fermentation fridge set at 65F, next day pitch yeast and aerate the piss out of it with a whisk on the end of a drill.

As for the yeast, I smacked a fresh smack pack that started swelling in about 10 minutes. Made a 1 quart starter that night (I aerated the piss out of the starter). Pitched after 24 hours in the starter as the starter died down. I did aerate the starter again before I pitched.

This fast start with a long burn is not unusual IMHO for belgain yeasts. I saw the same thing with yeast I cultured from a bottle of chimay. I posted this thread because I jumped in on another thread about this yeast some time ago even though I had not brewed with it. In that thread someone posted that 50% of their club experienced stuck fermentations with this yeast. I suspected that these brewers rack on their schedule (1 week, 2 week, what ever) instead of waiting for the yeast to be done. Based on what I have now observed with this yeast and what I had already observed with the chimay yeast I would recommend that any brewer give this yeast plenty of time to finish.

-Doug
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3501
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 08:05 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, thanks for taking your time to describe it. I'll keep that strain in mind to try it someday!

Did you so far measure the "final" FG?

/Fredrik
 

Doug Pescatore
Senior Member
Username: Doug_p

Post Number: 2029
Registered: 10-2002
Posted From: 141.232.1.1
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 01:14 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Not yet. I will be doing that this weekend. I generally wait a lot longer than most for ales and lagers to transfer to the secondary.

-Doug
 

Fredrik
Senior Member
Username: Fredrik

Post Number: 3502
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 62.20.8.114
Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 04:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm currently reworking a simple predictive model that attempts to correlate the

- fermentation time
- pitching rate
- temp
- yeast growth
- attenuation

by trying to model the maintenance costs of the yeast. I asked the fortnight guys about this long time ago but didn't get a satisfactory answer but now I hope to be able to work something out anyway.

It will be a more principal model, but the main idea is that hope it can be a tool to make me understand observed variations. Apart from the pitching and aeration stuff, there might also be difference in cellular maintenance between strains, wich could affect performance as well as attenuation.

The typical biomass yield of 5% going back from balling is just a simple average, and I suspect that in order to make progress i really need to decompose it and model it's variation. It seems from rought theory that anaerobic grow could easily hit over 10% without respiration, but that fact that it doesn't is most probably due to high maintenance and stress costs.

It seems except for stress factors, like membrane quality and osmotic stress, time and active biomass are major factors for the maintenance cost. Since the maintenance terms are expressed in energy cost per biomass per time unit.

What isn't totally clear yet is how big the strain to strain variation really is. That's why I'm curious about slow strains. I want to know why it's slow, just out of curiosity. High cellular maintenance could be a possible cause, which would stall growth, and prolong fermentation.

/Fredrik