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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2007 * Archive through February 12, 2007 * Belgian Strong Dark Ale... < Previous Next >

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Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1256
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.9.180
Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 02:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've got my yeast starters going today to brew on Wednesday.

I've got plenty of Special B and a couple 16 ounce bottles of the dark candi syrup.

How much of the syrup do you all think is enough for 10 gallons of a Belgian Strong Dark ale along the lines of a Westvleteren 12 or a Rochefort 10?

Do you think using both bottles is overkill?
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6319
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 02:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My instincts tell me to use one bottle of the dark candi syrup per 10 gallons, but I have not used it yet (I plan to soon). I'll be interested in hearing other opinions about this.
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 1984
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.4.202.69
Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 03:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I brewed a 10 gallon batch of the Beer Captured Chimay GR clone a month or so ago. I have brewed this once before for a comparison. The most recent brew seemed to turn out lighter in color than the first. The candi sugar I used on the second batch was lighter than the first batch. On the second batch I used lots of fresh yeast and let the fermentation rise up to 80F and it went from 1.083 to 1.016 in 4 days!! The beer tasted thin, lacked that raisiny/rumminess and was still too light so I split a 16oz bottle of Dark Belgian Candi Syrup into the two fermenters. It help a little, but I should have added two bottles to the 10 gallons.

I don't know how it would compare if I added it in the BK. Paul, I'd use 2 bottles.
 

Graham Cox
Advanced Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 879
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 68.32.253.156
Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 03:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That container is fluid ounces, right? So I'm guessing that it probably weighs about a pound and a half?

I used a pound in a 5-gallon batch of Belgian dark strong a few weeks ago, and I thought it came out very good. I'm with Bill in thinking two full containers (~3 pounds) might be overkill.
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1257
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.9.180
Posted on Sunday, January 21, 2007 - 04:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yup, Graham, one 16 fluid ounce bottle does weigh about 25 ounces (including the bottle).

I'm thinking that if I did use 3 lbs of the syrup, I'd of course back off on the beet sugar some.

The Rochefort 8 clone recipe I have in hand calls for 2.5 lbs of dark candi (I assume in rock form) for a 10 gallon batch.

I'm planning on 1 lb of Special B, and 1 lb of caramunich in the grain bill.
 

Greg Brewer
Junior Member
Username: Greg_r

Post Number: 75
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.253.141.246
Posted on Monday, January 22, 2007 - 04:15 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Use at least two bottles! I used one bottle for six gallons and it is definitely light on the dark sugar flavors you find in W12 and R10. Used half a pound of SpB and 1.5 pounds cane sugar as well. Too light in color too; I added some cold steeped black malt to the primary for more color. A great beer now but lacking some intended complexity I was hoping to capture with the syrup.
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1259
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.7.125
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm leaning towards 3 lbs of the syrup, and 2 lbs of beet sugar, which would be about 15 percent of the total fermentable load.

BTW, the BJCP style guidelines for Belgian Dark Strong Ale show color as being between 15 and 20 SRM. Yet the commercial examples that are listed are all quite a bit darker. According to Brew Like a Monk, Rochefort 10 is 45 SRM, and Westvleteren 12 is 40 SRM, whil St Benardus 12 is listed at 43 SRM.

I think the BJCP guideline parameters ought to be changed. I've posted something in the forum at bjcp.org

We'll see what the PTB over there say...
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6335
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 05:45 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, unfortunately I don't have any of your examples on hand (Rochefort 10 and St. Bernardus Abt appear here only as infrequent seasonals, and Westy 12 is extremely rare). However, the figures you cite from BLAM seem uncharacteristically dark. I wouldn't consider these beers as dark as a stout; they're more like a brown ale. I had a couple of Chimay Blues over the holidays, and I would estimate the color as about 20 SRM.
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1260
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.7.125
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 06:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill,

It's been more than a few years since I've had a Westy 12 or a Rochefort 10 myself. I do have a couple of pictures in a brochure on Trappist beers I was given at Orval. The picture of the Westy in the glass shows it to be a very, very dark brown. Same for the Rochefort 10, very dark brown, with garnet highlights.

here's links to pictures of the beer I've found:

Westvleteren (the 12 is on the right)

http://www.sintsixtus.be/eng/proces.html

Rochefort:

http://www.bottledbeer.co.uk/index.html?beerid=364

And

http://www.trappistes-rochefort.com/bieres_accueil.htm

I didn't want to copy & paste the pic's from those sites, as they're likely copyrighted.

(Message edited by pedwards on January 23, 2007)
 

Steve Jones
Intermediate Member
Username: Stevej

Post Number: 274
Registered: 08-2001
Posted From: 164.89.253.21
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 08:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Here is an SRM 20 gif:
srm 20 color swatch

This is about the color of Chimay Blue. Definitely not black, but quite dark with garnet hues.
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1261
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.7.125
Posted on Tuesday, January 23, 2007 - 09:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, that's about the same color that BeerAlchemy gives on my monitor. And my Dennis Davison Color Guide, which goes to 19 SRM, is quite close.


I think, tho, that Rochefort 10 and Westvleteren 12 are darker than that.

here's a link to the Chimay website.

http://www.chimay.com/en/three_strong_personalities_217.php

The glass of blue label looks darker than 20 SRM to me. Maybe it's just the photograph.

Sounds like I need o make a trip to the beer store...

BTW, what ever happened to Dennis? I haven't seen hide nor hair of him a for many, many years. he was a pretty darn good brewer.

(Message edited by pedwards on January 23, 2007)
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1262
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.7.125
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 08:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, I got it brewed today.

23 lbs Durst Turbo Pils
3 lbs Weyermann Munich
1.5 lbs caramunich
1 lb Special B

Mashed at 154 deg F for 75 minutes with 1qt water per lb of grain

Added to the boil:

2 lbs beet sugar
3 lbs dark candi syrup (2 16 ounce bottles)

I was expecting the beer to be much darker than it came out, given that people are saying to use 80 SRM for the syrup. It's
probably right around 20-22 SRM.

I probably should've added an ounce or three of carafa

The wort tastes great, and I hit my target gravity of 1.092, so the revised gravity number of 1.031 pppg for the syrup seems right.

Oh, Hopping was with Styrian Goldings and Hallertau to about 24 IBU's

Yeast was Wyeast 1762 fo 5 gallons and 3787 for the other 5.

edit: Greg, I' m thinking doing what you did: cold steeping some carafa (maybe 3 or 4 ounces), running the liquid thru a coffee filter, then boiling it to sanitize before adding the liquid to the fermenters. I wnet back to my recipe spreadsheet and put in a value of zero for the SRM contribution for the syrup. The newly computed number is a lot closer to what I got. The syrup contributed very little color at all.

(Message edited by pedwards on January 24, 2007)
 

Greg Brewer
Junior Member
Username: Greg_r

Post Number: 76
Registered: 03-2005
Posted From: 68.253.141.246
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 03:43 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I cold steeped 3 ounces black patent in 8 ounces water for a 5 gallon recipe and could have used more. Try 4 ounces carafa and see if it does the trick - then do it again if it's not enough. I like the coffee filter idea before boiling.
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1263
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 70.236.7.125
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 01:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've got 3 ounces of carafa III steeping now. I figure I can sneek up on the color.

BTW, for filtering I first used a "gold" metal coffee filter to remove the biger chunks of grain, then ran the liquid thru a paper filter to get the fine stuff.

The liquid is on the stove now...

(Message edited by pedwards on January 25, 2007)
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1266
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 69.219.228.128
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, I'm going to go get another bottle of the dark candi syrup.

Then I'm going to measure out 1 ounce (by weight) and add it to enough water to make 8 fluid ounces, the equivalent of putting 1 lb of syrup into 1 gallon of solution.

Then I'll see what color I get. I'm betting it won't be anywhere near 80 SRM, the reputed color contribution for the syrup. And I'll put a few drops on the refractometer.

I do think, tho, that 1.0313 pppg is a good number to use for gravity contribution.

Anybody else got some syrup laying about and want to give this a try?
 

Darel Matthews
Junior Member
Username: Darel

Post Number: 60
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 71.175.13.85
Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 03:30 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Personally, I don't think you should worry about color so much as flavor. I am sitting here right now drinking the Beer Captured recipe of Chimay GR, and it is WAY too higer-alcoholic. I used the recommended 1.5# dark candi sugar, and the primary ferm temp was 70 with a secondary of 68. High ferm temps are usually the culprit behind higher alcohols as are excessive use of adjuncts. I would say in this case 1.5# was excessive and the beer did not turn out well for me.
Darel
 

Dave Witt
Advanced Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 929
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 64.53.226.78
Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 04:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darel, did you use the Chimay yeast cultured from a bottle or WY1214 (Chimay)? Several brewers here have reported bad results fermenting above 68 with this yeast. Some other Belgian yeasts can be fermented up to 90F. I wouldn't blame the fusels on using too much sugar. Read "Brew Like a Monk" if you haven't already. Great book.

Regarding the Dark Candi Syrup, it sounds like the same misleading color info as the dark candi sugar crystals; 275L, no way.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6402
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 04:33 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

According to Brew Like a Monk, Chimay begins the fermentation at 68 F and lets the temperature rise gradually until it is nearly 80 F by the time it finishes.
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1268
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 69.219.228.128
Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 04:40 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm going by my LHBS in a little while to return some folding chairs I borrowed.

I'm going to pick up a bottle of the syrup, and mix a little up as I described. I'll try and post a pic later today.

Also, I've emailed with Nate Sampson, who's had some considerable experience with the dark candi syrup. He says the gravity contribution of 1.0313 pppg has been confirmed by Siebel. He's going to find the pics he took of his dilutions and send them to me. He agrees the color contribution isn't 80 SRM

Stay tuned...
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1269
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 69.219.228.128
Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 06:31 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, here's a pic...

i weighed out 1 ounce of the syrup, then diluted it to 8 fluid ounces with filtered water. It's a lot darker than I thought. Maybe the syrup does contribute 80 SRM. But then why did my spreadsheet (using 80 SRM) predict a wort color of about 45 when I ended up with a wort of around 20-22 SRM ???



edit, I just fired up the other computer (I don't have Virtual PC on this one yet) and ran the grain bill thru ProMash. It predicted 22.4 SRM, which is about what I got.

i guess I need to go back and analyze the formula in the spreadsheet. I got it from GlennTinseth's hop page many moon ago, lng before ProMash was available. It's always predicted pretty darn right on the money for color and gravity.

I'm off to dig into the spreadsheet...

Live and learn.

(Message edited by pedwards on January 28, 2007)
 

Darel Matthews
Junior Member
Username: Darel

Post Number: 64
Registered: 07-2003
Posted From: 71.175.13.85
Posted on Monday, January 29, 2007 - 12:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Dave,
I cultured from a bottle of Red.
 

Doug J
Member
Username: Doug_j

Post Number: 241
Registered: 06-2004
Posted From: 4.159.56.52
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:40 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have used both Wy 1214 and EasYeast Trappist Ale for my 'UptheGrandCru' Chimay Blue clone and prefer the EasYeast, but that was not because of fusels. I have only brewed that recipe with 1214 four times, but have not noticed fusels from high ferm temps. Maybe I was just lucky.
Malam cerevisiam faeceus in cathedram stercoris
 

Dave Witt
Advanced Member
Username: Davew

Post Number: 930
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 64.53.226.78
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 02:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Darel, I believe Denny was one of those who didn't like what they got above 68, but that may have been with 1214. And it might have had more to do with phenolics anyway.
 

The Gimp
Junior Member
Username: Gimp

Post Number: 94
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 208.5.44.21
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 06:13 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I've used WY1214 and WLP500 in a side by side comparison and both finished the same with the same profile.

I've also used WY1214 up to 76F and hot-housed for conditioning at 80F without problems. It doe s give a pronounced bubblegum flavor at 80F, but it fades in a couple of months. I've not had problems with phenolics up to 80F.
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6404
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 10:04 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Paul, are you saying the estimated color of 80 SRM for the dark candi syrup now seems about right to you?

Also, I now have two bottles of the syrup I'm going to use in a Rochefort 8 clone. I'm thinking of using 1.5 bottles for 10 gallons. The recipe also calls for 3 lbs. of caramunich. If I use the dark candi syrup do you think I should cut back somewhat on the caramunich. I'm wondering if it will have too much caramel flavor with both the syrup and the full amount of caramunich.
 

Paul Edwards
Senior Member
Username: Pedwards

Post Number: 1273
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 69.208.150.218
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 01:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Bill,

yeah, I think 80 SRM seems about right.

Turns out the Glenn Tinseth BrewCalc Excel spreadsheet I'd been using for many years uses a linear formula for color estimation. After some looking about, I found what formula ProMash uses (in a help file.) BeerAlchemy apparently uses either the same formula or something very similar.

In any case, the Tinseth linear formula seems accurate for lighter colored beers (when compared to ProMash and BeerAlchemy), but is less and less accurate the darker a beer gets.

The Promash formula is based on Malt Color Units (MCU):

MCU (for each component of the grist)= (deg L of the grain x pounds of grain)/batch size in gallons

then you add up the MCU's to get the total MCU for the batch

Then

SRM = 1.4922 X (MCU^0.6859)


As for your Rochefort 8 clone recipe, I can't say. My Dark Strong is still in the primary, and will be for a couple of days. I won't be pulling a sample until I rack it to secondary. The wort tasted pretty darn good going into the fermenter, tho. My grain bill is posted above.

I had less caramunich than your recipe, but more syrup and some Special B.

(Message edited by pedwards on January 31, 2007)
 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 6416
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.57.224.220
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the info about the color. I'll go with 80 SRM. I can see that to reach 20 SRM with my recipe I'll need to add 2 oz. of black malt. Unfortunately I don't have access to Sinamar or debittered black carafa (living in Canada sometimes can be a pain). I'll have to cold steep some black patent.

By the way, there is no data on the dark candi syrup by weight, only volume. Do you have any idea how much the contents of a 16 fl. oz. bottle weighs? I can weigh the bottle full and then again empty after I add it, but I'd like to be able to calculate the S.G. beforehand based on weight.

My Rochefort 8 recipe uses 3 lbs. caramunich and 1 lb. special B for 10 gallons. I think I'm going to cut the carmunich back by half a pound because I'm using the candi syrup.

Brew Like a Monk claims the O.G. is 1.078 and there is 90 percent apparent attenuation for Rochefort 8, which would indicate an F.G. of 1.008. I think it will be a serious challenge getting that kind of attenuation from this recipe, even with 3 lbs. of white sugar. My expectations are more that it will finish about 1.012. I plan on a step mash, a 1.5 gallon starter, lots of aeration, rousing the yeast frequently and increasing the temperature as fermentation progresses.

(Message edited by BillPierce on January 31, 2007)
 

Richard Nye
Senior Member
Username: Yeasty_boy

Post Number: 2004
Registered: 01-2004
Posted From: 68.4.202.69
Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 03:26 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I have first hand experience with WLP500 (reportedly the Chimay strain) and fermenting it at 80F. I pitched 34 million cells/ml of wort in the high 60s then let the fermentation rise until it reached 80F then the chiller kicked on. This is the method Chimay uses (according to Brew Like a Monk). The beer only took 4 days to go from 1.083 to 1.016. And there were NO BUBBLEGUM OR HIGHER FUSELS WHATSOEVER. I have had trouble with phenolics in another batch using the Canadian Belgian yeast (WY3864), but I believe it was caused by over pitching (pitched on a yeast cake of a prior batch). There is a great article in Jan/Feb, 07 BYO about pitching rate and its affect on phenolics and fusels.

But then again, YMMV.
 

Denny Conn
Senior Member
Username: Denny

Post Number: 6148
Registered: 01-2001
Posted From: 140.211.82.4
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 08:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, I've had disagreeable results with both cultured Chimay yeast and 1214 above about 66F.

FWIW, I made a dubble with one bottle of the candi syrup and AFAIAC it came out too light colored. I added a couple oz. of Sinamar to the keg to adjust it.
LIfe begins at 60...1.060, that is.