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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2010 * Archive through July 07, 2010 * "Double mash" vs "cereal mash" < Previous Next >

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John McElver
Junior Member
Username: Johnmc

Post Number: 27
Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 144.29.1.19
Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 - 10:23 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'm just curious about where "cereal mash" came from to indicate a separate adjunct (raw rice, corn, etc) mash with some malt versus the usage "double mash" as in Wahl and Henius Second edition pg 711 and thereabouts.
I know it's nit-picky, but all mashes with barley are cereal mashes, cereals being the edible grains of the grass family. The "double mash" usage seems to be a pro thing, while "cereal mash" seems to be a homebrewer thing (not to be confused with "cereal cooker").
Just curious...
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 2459
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 208.54.95.40
Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2010 - 11:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

It's just a difference of terminology. "Cereal" in this context refers to adjuncts. A cereal mash is in fact a double mash, but a double mash is not necessarily a cereal mash.

What does the term "layover" mean to you? A period of time spent at an airport between flights? Ask any pilot or flight attendant what it means, and they'll tell you it's an overnight stay at a hotel between work periods. (What most people call a "layover", we refer to as a "sit-around" or "sit", or more sarcastically as a "productivity sit".) You say to-MA-to, I say to-MAH-to.
 

John McElver
Junior Member
Username: Johnmc

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 144.29.1.19
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 12:35 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Graham, I understand that it's terminology, really jargon, in that jargon is word usage peculiar to a particular profession or set of people. I ponder whether the jargon for professional brewers is "double mash" and for home brewers it's "cereal mash". Just for disclosure, I'm one of those folks who look up word etymology for fun.
So, I'm curious when and where it came from.
Kind of like "armoire." English already had a perfectly good word for a portable, wooden closet, "wardrobe," which can also mean a set of clothes, like "layover" having more than one meaning. I think that "armoire" came into American English usage for two reasons; we use wardrobe more for a set of clothes and armoire sounds classier for furniture salesmen to banter about while trying to sell them.
BTW, a layover for a pilot or flight attendant being between work periods is also between flights, since work periods for them are flights, so that's probably how they came up with that word usage/jargon. At least, that's my theory of the moment.
 

Steve Jones
Advanced Member
Username: Stevej

Post Number: 706
Registered: 08-2001
Posted From: 199.190.8.12
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 05:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think that with commercial brewers a cereal mash refers to the individual adjunct mash, whereas double mash refers to the entire process including the cereal mash and the main mash.

When homebrewers say they are going to do a cereal mash, it usually refers to the additional step of mashing the adjuncts separately (with some barley malt) and then boiling to gelatinize before adding to the main mash

But double mash has another meaning to many homebrewers ... the practice of doing a mash, collecting the runoff, then using that runoff as the strike liquor for a second mash, producing a higher gravity wort.
 

John McElver
Junior Member
Username: Johnmc

Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 144.29.1.19
Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2010 - 10:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I found the answer (which just shows Graham was right) in the 1902 Wahl-Henius, pg 711:

Different methods of. applying temperatures to a mash supply the following systems:
1. Infusion or water mash:
American Malt Beers.-From lower initial temperature to higher final temperature,
English Beers.-High initial temperature.
2. Decoction or Thick Mash.-German beers.
3. Double Mash.-American raw cereal beers.
By the infusion method, the mash is brought to its final temperature by the admixture of water of suitably high temperature. By the decoction method, part of the' mash itself is raised to a boil and then returned to the, mash-tun. By the American raw cereal mash the raw grain is boiled separately and run into the malt mash to produce the final temperature.
[Emphasis added]
Thanks all.
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 2461
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.15.105.173
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 03:38 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

That's all well and good, but you know, it depends on your equipment. Some systems allow "A" while some systems allow "B". Some systems allow "A" and "B" but not both, and some systems are flexible enough to allow both "A" and "B", depending on the brewer's wishes and the beer in question.

I too enjoy historical references, because it gives you insight into how they did things with what they knew at the time, and with what equipment was available to them. Really, that is not at all different from homebrewing, because we all have different levels of knowledge and equipment based on desire, budget, space, etc. There's a lot of different ways to do things. Without trying to open another can of worms, I have a new system with which I kinda-sorta fly sparge, but since I learned batch sparging first and practiced it for several years, I incorporate elements of that type of procedure to speed things up, and to not have to waste the extra water and energy associated with true fly-sparging. It works for me, and I'm not going to give it a cutesie name or try to misappropriate a brewing term more applicable to some other procedure for it.
 

John McElver
Junior Member
Username: Johnmc

Post Number: 30
Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 144.29.1.19
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 12:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Graham,
Yeah, but... if you invent it, you get to name it.
Cheers,
John
 

Graham Cox
Senior Member
Username: T2driver

Post Number: 2463
Registered: 11-2004
Posted From: 72.15.105.173
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 01:50 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

"Flatch sparge." (The similarity to "flatulence" is not coincidental. )
 

dhacker
Senior Member
Username: Dhacker

Post Number: 2144
Registered: 11-2002
Posted From: 184.41.98.80
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 02:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sorry Graham, I can assure you by the statutes of common law, I have already laid claim to that. If you don't believe me, you are welcome to come to my brew house ANYTIME I'm making beer. (like right now for example)


 

Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce

Post Number: 11832
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.141.101.115
Posted on Friday, June 25, 2010 - 02:15 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No other part of the brewing process is so simple as sparging yet inspires so much complexity in terminology. It's as if sometimes we wish to make it seem more difficult than it is, like we want to play the man behind the curtain masquerading as a wizard.

I sometimes refer to it as "flushing," and the connection with a toilet is not entirely unintentional.
 

John McElver
Junior Member
Username: Johnmc

Post Number: 31
Registered: 04-2010
Posted From: 71.77.1.9
Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2010 - 01:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Sparging should be simple, but man do we make a lot of ways to do it (batch, fly, flatch, and none) and a whole load of whirly-gigs to do it with (wands, spinners, etc).
Thankfully, it's just water...
 

Tom Meier
Advanced Member
Username: Brewdawg96

Post Number: 968
Registered: 03-2003
Posted From: 68.19.213.134
Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2010 - 04:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

To harken back to the 'how to teach someone to all grain' thread, the best way to describe sparging is by calling it what it is:
"draining and rinsing sugars out of the grains"

Like you could say, "what I am going to do next is use a known quantity of pH adjusted strike water supplied in two series of successive infusions, thereby resulting in an extraction of 70% of the grains theoretical yield based on fine-grind dry basis."

OR, you could say "now I am going to rinse the sugar out of the grains"