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ChriSto
Advanced Member
Username: Christo
Post Number: 829
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 08:57 pm: | 
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I've now made 8 batches of lagers with Fermentis 34/70 dry yeast. The first few ended up nice and quickly disappeared (so may not have seen the problem described here). The last 4-5 however, over the period of 2 years, have had more extended aging on them and they have all picked up a distinct diacetyl buttery note by the 3rd or 4th month in the keg. My latest is a Schwarzbier that was very clean for the first month or so after tapping (after 3 weeks primary and 6 weeks of secondary) but has the telltale signs beginning. As I found with a batch of rauchbier (that took a while to drink), the diacetyl continues to develop and will become even more pronounced over several months to the point of not being very drinkable - this for a beer that came in 4th BOS earlier last year.
I initially thought I was picking up some type of infection (i.e. pediococci or lactobacillus), but everything that can be cleaned/boiled/disinfected or replaced has been, still it has persisted. For my last two batches (the schwarz and an Amer Lager that had slightly less diacetyl), I have cooled to 45F prior to pitching and performed an extended d-rest of a week at 65F to no avail.
So, I'm back to the yeast. Has anyone had issues with this using Fermentis 34/70. The liquid forefather of this dried yeast was know to be one of the cleaner and less-diacetyl forming yeasts avaialable.
I will note that I have a particular sensitivity to diacetyl, so several others have thought it not as bad as I believe it to be. I'm going to go back to White Labs for a while with some lagers this fall and see it persists, which would make me think I still have a sanitation issue somewhere, and may be time for a change from my B-Brite/Iodophor typical cleaning-disinfection regimen.
Anywho, any feedback is appreciated. |
Bill Pierce
Moderator
Username: Billpierce
Post Number: 13148
Registered: 01-2002
Posted From: 24.150.49.181
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 09:06 pm: |
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This is indeed odd. Typically diacetyl appears early and dissipates over time. If it appears late (and continues to get worse), it's usually a sign of infection.
If you have access to a lab (perhaps you know someone), you might analyze one of these beers early on and then again after several months. Does there appear to be an appreciable increase in the bacteria count (separate of course from yeast)?
I have not used Fermentis 34/70. |
Tony Legge
Advanced Member
Username: Boo_boo
Post Number: 548
Registered: 05-2005
Posted From: 174.118.73.14
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2011 - 09:40 pm: |
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I'm working my way through a brick of W34/70 now and usually my lagers age for at least 3 months before I get a chance to tap one. I have made 3 Helles using it so far in addition to other styles of lager and with the light Helles, you would think that if it were the yeast, I would find it also. I'm pretty sensitive to diacetyl also, and would dump a keg if I fould any trace of it.
I start fermentation at 48f and continue at 50f until just about complete and do a rest until it is completly done. I lager in a keg as a secondary and usually just serve from the same keg |
ChriSto
Advanced Member
Username: Christo
Post Number: 830
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 76.29.197.71
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 12:41 am: |
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With the increase of aroma/flavor, I've thought some type of infection all along, but it is not present in any of my ales. I may have to check with my laboratory friend to perform a bac count for me. She could use some beer (just not my schwarzbier).
It's been quite a while since I used a different lager yeast, so I'll see how that goes with a dunkel and doppelbock planned for the fall.
In earlier beers, I pitched around 60F and put into the fridge, but after the earlier buttery notes, decided to chill well prior to pitching and then doing the long and warm d-rest at about 90% of fermentation complete.
Possibly the fridge needs a cleaning. . . That's the one difference between the ales and lagers. I guess it will be |
mikel
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikel
Post Number: 372
Registered: 02-2001
Posted From: 166.181.2.45
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 01:09 am: |
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This is one of the reasons I gave up on dry yeasts. I also had problems with the US05 not being clean enough and contributing and odd bready/fruity aroma to my beers. The few times I tried the 34/70 I had noticeable diacetyl that really turned me off the yeast. It's been years since I've tried them again but I seem to remember them increasing in price to the point where it isn't much cheaper to go with the dry. Now that I have a stir plate it isn't much easier for me either. |
ChriSto
Advanced Member
Username: Christo
Post Number: 831
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2011 - 02:15 pm: |
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Interesting that you've had similar issues, Mikel. I've finished off the last of my packets of yeast (I won half a dozen each of 34/70 and S-05 packets in a comp 1.5 years ago and have kept these chilled ever since), so I've been planning to go back to liquids anyway, especially with the dry yeast price increase. I've really liked my Schwarzbier (well until the last week or so), so I'm going to make it again with a liquid yeast, using the same keg and the same fermenter. |
ChriSto
Advanced Member
Username: Christo
Post Number: 832
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 76.29.197.71
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2011 - 01:53 am: |
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Bingo!
I just opened the most lovely bottle of Oud Bruin yesterday. It was a perfectly soured beer that brought high praise from several sour beer makers in our club. Had a real clean lactic sourness to it that was quite nice.
Only problem was this was a bottle of the Rauchbier I made some 18 months ago that I found in the back of the cabinet. I believe the buttery note I'm getting now in the Schwarzbier is the same thing from that batch. I'm going to bottle up a sixer of the Schwarzbier and let it sit for the next year and see what happens. Still have to assume it's something in my system and not in 34/70, but could still turn out to be something good in the end. |
Josh Vogel
Junior Member
Username: Loopie_beer
Post Number: 72
Registered: 02-2011
Posted From: 65.60.214.75
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 05:59 pm: |
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ChriSto,
Another thing you might try doing is adding another dry yeast even after kegging to determine if its an infection or dicetyl. I recently tried this after discovering my light lager tasted like diacetyl and I too thought I might have an infection!
I kegged and everything tasted fine. Later I went to add fining agents (after lagering) and tasted it again. Diacetyl! How the?!? So here's what I did:
1) brought beer to about 65*, let sit for 3 days
2) Tasted, still diacetyl
3) Rehydrated a packet of Saflager and pitched at 65*
4) Waited week, tasted fine (whew! No infection!)
5) Cold crashed ASAP!
6) Waited another week
7) Tasted... No diacetyl!
This might help you as the yeast shouldn't be able to cure an infected batch. It would also help to see if its the yeast. |
ChriSto
Advanced Member
Username: Christo
Post Number: 833
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2011 - 09:07 pm: |
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I might just have to try that. Thanks!
I'll still bottle a few and hope that they turn into another oud bruin as well  |
Josh Vogel
Junior Member
Username: Loopie_beer
Post Number: 75
Registered: 02-2011
Posted From: 65.60.214.75
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2011 - 08:41 pm: |
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ChriSto, How did this turn out? |
ChriSto
Advanced Member
Username: Christo
Post Number: 836
Registered: 02-2006
Posted From: 216.176.226.154
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2011 - 11:43 am: |
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Hi Josh-
I did't try the extra pitch as I think we are past that. I sampled a bit last night and it is going like the rauchbier from last year - a clean lactic sourness, which is actually tasting pretty good, though of course not for a Schwarzbier. But this is now a tasty Oud Bruin (or at least getting there)!
It definitely seems to be a lactobacillus issue. I inherited a plastic bucket from another brewer and put it in my rotation and have had these issues over the time I've had it so could be it is imbedded in a scratch in the plastic - who knows? Though probably not the cause, I've decided it was time to get rid of my buckets anyway, so I'm ordering 2 new 6-gal carboys soon.
The only other issue is the fermenting/storage fridge (which also holds various foodstuffs). I'm planning on a serious cleaning of the inside of the fridge as this off-flavor appears to be coming from only lager beers. One of my kegs exhibits it more than the others, so I'm going to replace the o-rings on it, add boiling water and a few other tricks. I had taken all the couplers and dip tubes off and thoroughly cleaned/sanitized prior to this batch but this is apparently a stubborn bacteria and I may now have a dedicated sour beer keg (which there are worse things to have). I've always used Iodophor, and maybe it's time to switch it up with some StarSan to try different sanitizers as well. |
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