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Brews & Views Bulletin Board Service * Brews and Views Archive 2003 * August 27, 2003 * IPA Recipe Critique < Previous Next >

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Doug E. Fresh (64.26.198.47)
Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 07:48 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd like to get comments on the following recipe. I've never brewed a beer this big before and I am wondering if this is going to be too big. I don't want to end up with a barley-wine. I want a big time IPA that turns heads.

New World IPA (5.25 gallons)
11 lb. Maris Otter
8 oz. Special Roast
4 oz. Wheat Malt
4 oz. Crystal 60L
3 oz. Columbus (14% AA, 45 min.)
2 oz. Mt. Hood (4.1% AA, 20 min.)
1 oz. Mt. Hood (4.1% AA, 8 min.)
1 oz. Mt. Hood (aroma)
WL California Ale
Single infusion mash @ 151°F for 60 minutes
OG: 1.072, 142 IBU, 12 HCU (~8 SRM)

Comments? Am I out of my mind?
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:00 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Looks a lot like my rye IPA recipe without the rye, so it must be good! I might back off on the Columbus bittering hops abit, but then again I might not...Try using your 8 min. Mt. Hoods as FWH instead. And 1.072 too big for an IPA??? Not around here, bucko! :)
 

Hophead (167.4.1.38)
Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Oh well, DC has faster fingers than I... :) Pretty much the same advice...

It won't be a barleywine. This will require some aging though.

2 oz col (same as 3oz at this level of IBUs)
1 oz mt hood (first wort hop)
1 oz mt hood (20min)
1 oz mt hood (8min)
1 oz mt hood (flameout)

I would up the special roast to 1 lb too.

Have fun. This will be one of those that gets better with age. Of course, dry hopping in secondary (or keg) is a MUST...
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:30 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I think with with the FWH you could probably lose the 8 min. addition....your choice.
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd lose both the 20 minute and 8 minute additions and use 2-3 oz. FWH. But that's just me, I like beaucoup hop flavour in my IPA's. And that's how you'll get it.
 

Hophead (167.4.1.38)
Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:32 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Was suggesting doing fwh, 20, and 8.

On the double-IPAs, I typically go with additions at MH,FWH,60,20,5,0,DH to get the full array of hopitudilage...
 

Doug E. Fresh (64.26.198.47)
Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 09:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks for the comments. I made this recipe in the Beer Recipator here and just cut & paste without tweaking it a bit.

The 20 min. 2oz of Mt. Hood is supposed to be FWH and the last 1 oz. (aroma) is actually dry-hop in the secondary. I think I will up the Special Roast to 1 lb. - I really like that toasted/biscuit flavor in a beer.

Maybe I should brew something else besides Pale Ales and IPAs. Nahh.
 

Beerboy (81.134.170.47)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 09:28 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I'd keep the Colombus hops at 3oz and FWH them. Then I'd up the late hop additions to 2oz each. ANd dry hop with an ounce.

Hops Rule!!!!
 

Doug E. Fresh (24.34.218.33)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:09 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, here's the tweaked recipe. Thanks for the comments. I'll go with either Victory or Biscuit depending on what they have at the LHBS. Maybe with the time this will need to age I will change the name to Winter Warmer!

The Old Man's Winter Warmer
10 lb. Maris Otter
1 lb. Victory or Biscuit
8 oz. Crystal 40L
8 oz. Wheat Malt
3 oz. Columbus (14% AA, 45 min.)
2 oz. Mt. Hood (FWH)
1 oz. Mt. Hood (4.1% AA, 8 min.)
1 oz. Mt. Hood (dry-hop)
Single infusion mash @ 151°F for 60 minutes
WL001 California Ale
OG: 1.071, 143 IBU, 13 HCU (~9 SRM)
 

Denny Conn (140.211.82.4)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:11 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Well, some of your hop additions look redundant to me, and even for a hophead like me I think 3 oz. of Columbus might be a bit much, but hey, it's your beer...I don't think it's gonna suck!
 

Doug E. Fresh (24.34.218.33)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:38 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Believe it or not, it's still less IBUs than SSoS (151) and SSoS bitters with Chinook! I guess I will learn first hand just how "soft" a bitterness this "super-alpha" hop really is compared to its rep.

EKG and Fuggles compliment each other well as flavoring hops. What compliments Mt. Hood well?
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:47 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I find the combo of Mt. Hood and Columbus is one of my faves...
 

davidw (209.107.44.126)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Perle for bittering and Mt. Hood for flavor and aroma is a nice combo also.
 

Doug E. Fresh (24.34.218.33)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 08:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Could I use the Columbus for the 8 min addition as an aroma hop?
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 09:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Yeah, I guess so...it would change the character substantially, and it seems a little early for an aroma hop (I put 'em in at flame out), but if you have an image in your mind of what you want this beer to be like, don't let us talk ya out of it!
 

Hophead (167.4.1.38)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 09:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

From (many) previous discussions, and personal experiences, you really can't get over 100IBUs into a beer, so as has been said, it's a bit of a waste of hops, but it isn't going to hurt anything...

Feel free to break away from the 60-20-7 hopping schedule that's in most books. It's a guideline, not a rule. Experiment!
 

Denny Conn (63.114.138.2)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 09:16 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

HH, I disagree slightly...you can certainly have over 100 calculated or measured IBUs to a beer. It's debatable whether you can taste any difference over 100 IBU.
 

Doug E. Fresh (24.34.218.33)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 09:22 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am big fan these days of a 45-20-8-dry hopping schedule for pale ales with the 20 being FWH. I think I will give a try with 2.5oz of Columbus at 45min., 2oz of Mt. Hood FWH, 1oz of Columbus at 8 min. and 1oz of Mt. Hood dry-hop (111 IBU).

I'll get flavor from each variety of hop in a different manner each. I am pretty excited about it being a serious hophead myself. I've got a 91IBU IPA chilling in the fridge right now that I made with Horizon & Santiam on the same schedule (Horizon 45min, Santiam FWH, Santiam 8 min., Santiam dry-hop). The hops flavor is amazing. Santiam is all that.
 

JT (24.169.131.212)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 09:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

My last IPA had FWH and additions at 60, 50, 40, 30 , 20, 10, 5 and 0 minutes. I also dryhopped.
It came out excellent.
 

Doug E. Fresh (24.34.218.33)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 09:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Ya can't go wrong pitching every 10 minutes :^)

I am having a little beer tasting in about 20 minutes. I have two IPAs I brewed - one is extract on is AG. Problem is I bottled them all and forgot to mark them so I've forgotten which is which. Will I be able to tell the difference? It might take several ;^).
 

Jeff McClain (137.201.242.130)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 10:07 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Just so I know, what is FWH? And I assume Dry Hopping is putting the hops in during the ferment or even in the bottle/keg?

-Jeff
 

JT (24.169.131.212)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:24 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

First wort hopping (FWH) is adding finishing hops to the boil kettle as soon as sparging starts. It is used the same as you would a 20-30 min. addition and for flavor purposes. Many claim it gives a smoother hop flavor than later flavor additions. Dry hopping is exactly as you described.
 

JT (24.169.131.212)
Posted on Friday, August 01, 2003 - 11:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I forgot to mention that dry hopping is for hop aroma. Dryhopping is done during secondary fermentation or in the serving keg.
 

D. Fraser (67.92.195.178)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 12:42 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

How does FWH differ from mash hopping?

Physicaly I understand but how about the results?
 

Marlon Lang (65.83.146.197)
Posted on Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 02:39 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Jeff,
Check http://www.paddockwood.com/guide_hop_usage.html#FLAVOUR for Marc Sedam's definitive work on mash hop additions.
 

Doug Pescatore (141.232.1.10)
Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 03:54 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I seem to remember catching a bunch of #%$* for mentioning that I had altered a couple of recipes to employ 40-20-5 minute hop schedules with the boil only lasting 40 minutes itself. Are you boiling for the full 60 minutes with your hop schedule?

-Doug
 

Doug E. Fresh (24.34.218.33)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 02:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am boiling for 90 minutes actually since this is an AG recipe. So, my first hop addition will be 45 minutes after the boil starts.

So, the results of the taste test were great! I easily discovered the AG brew. It's my best IPA so far. Here's the recipe for those interested:

9 lb. Briess 2-row Pilsen
1 lb. Dingemans Biscuit
1 lb. Briess Crystal Malt (10°L)
1 oz. Horizon (13.6% AA, 45 min.)
1 oz. Kent Goldings (6% AA, FWH)
1 oz. Fuggles (dry-hop)
Single-infusion mash (152°F, 60 min.)
White Labs California Ale
OG: 1.062, FG: 1.012, 61 IBU, 8 HCU (~6 SRM)

I am really really happy with this IPA.

Doug
 

Jeff McClain (137.201.242.130)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 02:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Doug, how can your first hop addition be 45 minutes after the boil starts? I thought you said FWH was added during sparging? I would assume that would mean the Kent Goldings would be in for the full 90 minute boil (longer even, since you would have added it before bringing it to a boil) then the Horizon after 45 minutes (in a 90 minute boil)? Am I confusing something?

Thanks,

-Jeff
 

Doug E. Fresh (64.26.198.47)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 02:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

OK, my first BOILING hops addition is 45 minutes before the boil ends. So, yes, technically, in the course of the brewing session taken as a whole, it's not the first. The FWH are the first addition at the beginning of the sparging process.

Also, technically, the EKG are in the boil the full 90 minutes however the effect of FWH does not seem to include a 90 minute bittering contribution from the EKG. The consensus here is the FWH addition is similar in bittering to a 20 min. late boil addition.

So, if the recipe should read more like a timeline then this is what follows:

9 lb. Briess 2-row Pilsen
1 lb. Dingemans Biscuit
1 lb. Briess Crystal Malt (10°L)
1 oz. Kent Goldings (6% AA, FWH)
1 oz. Horizon (13.6% AA, 45 min.)
1 oz. Fuggles (dry-hop)
Single-infusion mash (152°F, 60 min.)
White Labs California Ale
OG: 1.062, FG: 1.012, 61 IBU, 8 HCU (~6 SRM)

(BTW, this recipe was designed using the Beer Recipator and the convention is that the times given for ingredient additions are in relation to the END of the boil so read 45 min. from the END of the boil).

Also, convention, is a 75-90 minute boil for AG recipes. My own convention is 75 min. for lower gravity beers and 90 min. for higher gravity beers.

I hope that confuses things more ;^). I am not doing anything out of the ordinary or special here.

Doug

PS: http://hbd.org/~ddraper/beer/1stwort.html
 

Hophead (167.4.1.38)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 05:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

DC, yah, that's what I meant. Indiscernable.

I only get to use one word over 10 letters per day, and I had already used up my quota...
 

Jeff McClain (137.201.242.130)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 08:06 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Thanks, Doug. I wasn't trying to be critical, just trying to resolve in my mind if what I had just learned about FWH was correct and your post confused me (easy to do..grin). Thanks again for the clarification.

Regards,

-Jeff
 

Doug E. Fresh (64.26.198.47)
Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 09:12 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

No problem. If you like IPAs I highly recommend trying the recipe.
 

Brewtun (64.12.97.9)
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 12:44 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

IMO, if it uses American hops and American yeast, it's an APA not an IPA. Use some British hops and a Burton Ale yeast & you're on the money.
 

Doug E. Fresh (24.34.218.33)
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 01:56 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

If you read Terry Foster's Pale Ale from the classic series he actually makes a distinction between American IPAs and English IPAs and goes further to say that the American versions are now more true to form than the English versions. If anything, the American examples are truer IPAs then their English cousins.

There are also historical examples of English beers that use American hops (during the colonization) and most so-called American hops are hybrids of English or German hops.

The AHA style guidelines do not differentiate between American IPAs and English IPAs. The style guidelines for APA is OG 1.044-1.056, IBU 20-40 and IPA is 1.050-1.070, IBU 40-60. So, only an APA with OG > 1.050 and IBU 40 can qualify as an IPA and conversely only the lowest gravity/hopped IPAs can be considered an APA.

The aforementioned recipe is definitely not an APA even if it uses one American hop. It also uses two British hops, one Belgian grain and two American grains with an American yeast strain.

It's an IPA.

Doug
 

Brewtun (64.12.97.9)
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 07:51 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

IMO = In my opinion....not Terry Foster's or anyone elses from the AHA or the BJCP. You asked for critique & you got it. My 2¢ worth, take it or leave it; it's a free country. But when they were loading those ships bound for India the beer wasn't made with Cascades or Chico ale yeast.

Cheers'
Brewtun
 

Brewtun (64.12.97.9)
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 07:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

IMO = In my opinion....not Terry Foster's or anyone elses from the AHA or the BJCP. You asked for critique & you got it. My 2¢ worth, take it or leave it; it's a free country. But when they were loading those ships bound for India the beer wasn't made with Cascades or Chico ale yeast.

Cheers,
Brewtun
 

Doug E. Fresh (64.26.198.47)
Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:52 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

I am pretty clear on what IMO means. Who says I have to agree with it and what does that have to do with this being a free-country? (BTW: some readers here may not be from free countries). Last I checked disagreement wasn't an infringement on free-speech but it's basis.

IMO, the style has evolved beyond an "english ingredients only" style and has come to include the american styles/interpretations as well. Probably, just like the separation of EPA and APA in the AHA styles, there should be a separation of AIPA and EIPA. Or, the APA definition needs to be expanded to higher gravities and hopping rates.

But, that's just my opinion, feel free to disagree :^).
 

Brewtun (205.188.208.73)
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 01:26 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Posted by Doug E. Fresh
"I am pretty clear on what IMO means. Who says I have to agree with it and what does that have to do with this being a free-country? (BTW: some readers here may not be from free countries). Last I checked disagreement wasn't an infringement on free-speech but it's basis."

Posted by Brewtun
"my 2¢ worth, take it or leave it; it's a free country."

Doug,
Don't so defensive, you don't have to agree with anything! What you inferred from my statement is not what I implied. "free country" is a figure of speech and a little bird told me that you already knew that.
The first definition of "opinion" in my copy of Webster's New World College Dictionary (fourth edition) is as follows:

1. a belief not based on absolute certainty or positive knowledge but on what seems true, valid, or probable to one's own mind; judgement

"My 2¢ worth"....The self imposed value of my opinion.

Now as for your brew....maybe a little chutney will make it a true India Pale Ale! :)

Wassail,
Brewtun
 

PalerThanAle (65.168.73.62)
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 02:01 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm, chutney.

PTA
 

Doug E. Fresh (64.26.198.47)
Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 03:05 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post View Post/Check IP    Ban Poster IP (Moderator/Admin only)

Good thing I didn't put Cascades in any of those recipes ;^).

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